Declining Numbers Impacting Competitive Balance

[Guest]

Declining numbers are killing high school football programs around the state.  The epicenter of this scourge appears to be north central Indiana, where the proud Plymouth program just suffered through an abysmal 0-10 season and others including Goshen, Wawasee,  and John Glenn are fighting an uphill battle to find enough bodies to fill a full freshman, JV, varsity program.

Coaches will start to walk away when their varsity programs are starting to look more like after school club football.

 

[DumfriesYMCA]

16 minutes ago, HHF said:

Declining numbers are killing high school football programs around the state.  The epicenter of this scourge appears to be north central Indiana, where the proud Plymouth program just suffered through an abysmal 0-10 season and others including Goshen, Wawasee,  and John Glenn are fighting an uphill battle to find enough bodies to fill a full freshman, JV, varsity program.

Coaches will start to walk away when their varsity programs are starting to look more like after school club football.

 

I fail to see how coaches are the victim here like you are trying to paint. They are in charge of getting the kids invested and making it fun/enjoyable as well as helping them be the best players they can be which ideally would mean success on the field. 
 

I also struggle to find anything that backs up your statement of the numbers being in decline.  Show the numbers…show the numbers for every class dating back to their middle school teams…sometimes you just get a small class for a sport and it stays that way….and it’s not anyone’s fault or any cause for concern…could just be that only 15 kids from 6th grade through high school wanted to play football for a class and it doesn’t change.  Shoot I’ve read about how some very successful programs in state had senior classes of 10 or less…definitely down years in numbers but they still succeeded and nobody panicked because they knew it was a smaller class. 
 

 

[Staxawax]

The second I saw the title of the thread I knew who authored it.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I fail to see how coaches are the victim here like you are trying to paint. They are in charge of getting the kids invested and making it fun/enjoyable as well as helping them be the best players they can be which ideally would mean success on the field. 
 

I also struggle to find anything that backs up your statement of the numbers being in decline.  Show the numbers…show the numbers for every class dating back to their middle school teams…sometimes you just get a small class for a sport and it stays that way….and it’s not anyone’s fault or any cause for concern…could just be that only 15 kids from 6th grade through high school wanted to play football for a class and it doesn’t change.  Shoot I’ve read about how some very successful programs in state had senior classes of 10 or less…definitely down years in numbers but they still succeeded and nobody panicked because they knew it was a smaller class. 
 

 

I have personally interviewed over 100 Indiana high school football coaches over the past year and this is a consistent concern that is raised by the coaches.  If I had to rank the top reasons for the decline in football numbers, they would be as follows :

* Athletes switching to soccer

* Families/moms concerned about injuries

* General student pullback in extra curriculars for either work or more non school personal time

I have had some coaches say that they are trying to recruit some athletes FROM the soccer team.  It used to be the other way around.

What we are seeing, and I believe this trend will continue, is a set number of schools that remain committed to football, and all the others falling further behind.  This is not a healthy long term trend for the game.  

 

 

[DumfriesYMCA]

1 hour ago, HHF said:

I have personally interviewed over 100 Indiana high school football coaches over the past year and this is a consistent concern that is raised by the coaches.  If I had to rank the top reasons for the decline in football numbers, they would be as follows :

* Athletes switching to soccer

* Families/moms concerned about injuries

* General student pullback in extra curriculars for either work or more non school personal time

I have had some coaches say that they are trying to recruit some athletes FROM the soccer team.  It used to be the other way around.

What we are seeing, and I believe this trend will continue, is a set number of schools that remain committed to football, and all the others falling further behind.  This is not a healthy long term trend for the game.  

 

 

I’m sure the 30 boys on a big HS soccer roster is really the reason a football team can’t get 70 kids from the 400+ boys at a given 4A school.  
 

there are plenty of reasons why a kid may not want to play football and I’m sure most of them are perfectly good reasons…but kids playing soccer is not a reason why a football program cannot field a full JV/Freshman team….that goes without even mentioning that the OL/DL/LBs/TEs are not even going to try to get on a soccer field.  
 

Do coaches think kids who are 6’0+ 215lbs want to run around for 80 minutes trying to be more agile than everyone else? Lol like come on.  The kids playing soccer have builds that are more similar to DBs and WRs than anything….which funny enough…DBs and WRs are the two positions in football that every team carries the most depth at.  

 

blaming kids playing soccer is a joke to me and I refuse to give any credit to that idea.  

[Muda69]

22 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I’m sure the 30 boys on a big HS soccer roster is really the reason a football team can’t get 70 kids from the 400+ boys at a given 4A school.  

It is at "4A" Frankfort High School.  When your 9-12 student body is >50% Hispanic/Latino then soccer tends to be bigger deal than American tackle football.  Just saying........

 

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, HHF said:

I have personally interviewed over 100 Indiana high school football coaches over the past year and this is a consistent concern that is raised by the coaches.  If I had to rank the top reasons for the decline in football numbers, they would be as follows :

* Athletes switching to soccer

* Families/moms concerned about injuries

* General student pullback in extra curriculars for either work or more non school personal time

I have had some coaches say that they are trying to recruit some athletes FROM the soccer team.  It used to be the other way around.

What we are seeing, and I believe this trend will continue, is a set number of schools that remain committed to football, and all the others falling further behind.  This is not a healthy long term trend for the game.  

 

 

Can't imagine that this is the top item or even in the top three.  Maybe kids being pulled in MANY different directions by MANY different options, but soccer's just a scapegoat. 

I know kids who aren't planning baseball because they are: playing football and want to focus on that, running track and wanting to focus on that, racing dirt bikes, and another wanting to focus on robotics.  I know a kid who was going to play soccer, but plays football instead.  Know one that who was going to play football, but now plays soccer.  In essence, while there may be a regional propensity for soccer, soccer's not the reason for any statewide or national decline.  Incidentally, football has ALWAYS tried to recruit from the soccer team ... used to be kickers, but now there's an appreciation for other things like footwork if you can get the hands to work.  Some of my better fullbacks were soccer players.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I’m sure the 30 boys on a big HS soccer roster is really the reason a football team can’t get 70 kids from the 400+ boys at a given 4A school.  
 

there are plenty of reasons why a kid may not want to play football and I’m sure most of them are perfectly good reasons…but kids playing soccer is not a reason why a football program cannot field a full JV/Freshman team….that goes without even mentioning that the OL/DL/LBs/TEs are not even going to try to get on a soccer field.  
 

Do coaches think kids who are 6’0+ 215lbs want to run around for 80 minutes trying to be more agile than everyone else? Lol like come on.  The kids playing soccer have builds that are more similar to DBs and WRs than anything….which funny enough…DBs and WRs are the two positions in football that every team carries the most depth at.  

 

blaming kids playing soccer is a joke to me and I refuse to give any credit to that idea.  

You are sitting in one of the hottest hotbeds of high school football in the state.  Things are a little  different up north.  Ask John Barron at Plymouth or the recently fired Head Coach at Goshen if soccer is not impacting their programs.  

[DumfriesYMCA]

12 minutes ago, HHF said:

You are sitting in one of the hottest hotbeds of high school football in the state.  Things are a little  different up north.  Ask John Barron at Plymouth or the recently fired Head Coach at Goshen if soccer is not impacting their programs.  

I could ask any HC a primed question like that and get that answer.  
 

If you have to make an excuse you did something wrong.  Applies for all walks of life.  You have excuses and you have results….either you did something with your best effort and with a given purpose/reasoning behind….win or lose…..or you make excuses for why you didn’t 

[SBFootball1]

Are you guys arguing there is no drop in participation numbers or you just don't like the reasons given? I don't have numbers to back it, but it seems like the number of schools with frosh and/or JV teams is lowering every year.  A one or two year low trend can be overcome, but all of a sudden a kid doesnt have a chance to pay in games from his 8th grade year until maybe junior year, the participation levels will only worsen. Goshen and Plymouth are great examples of the current situation in a number of districts.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I could ask any HC a primed question like that and get that answer.  
 

If you have to make an excuse you did something wrong.  Applies for all walks of life.  You have excuses and you have results….either you did something with your best effort and with a given purpose/reasoning behind….win or lose…..or you make excuses for why you didn’t 

That is such a line of bull   Every Coach in the state knows that all programs are not created equal.  Its why coaches choose the programs they choose.  Using your philosophy, lets ask Nick Hart to walk away from the GS job and take over at Goshen.  Lets see if he can turn around the program given the current headwinds.  Same at Plymouth.  Even though Barron is a Hall of Fame Coach, numbers apparently dont matter.  Just make due with what youve got John.  Good luck with that. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by hhpatriot04
Language

[DumfriesYMCA]

@SBFootball1

Just the reasoning or really the  idea of blaming soccer as a big reason.  Not counting numbers so much 

 

11 hours ago, HHF said:

That is such a line of bull   Every Coach in the state knows that all programs are not created equal.  Its why coaches choose the programs they choose.  Using your philosophy, lets ask Nick Hart to walk away from the GS job and take over at Goshen.  Lets see if he can turn around the program given the current headwinds.  Same at Plymouth.  Even though Barron is a Hall of Fame Coach, numbers apparently dont matter.  Just make due with what youve got John.  Good luck with that. 

See now you’re out of line.  You don’t even realize that I don’t live in southern indiana or Indiana at all…and you immediately try to rope me in with the coaches at my alma mater instead of actually debating my point…like you think I represent GS or Coach Hart…I don’t I’m just a fan.  I didn’t even play under Hart.  
 

its not BS by the way…it the real world 

 

you either make excuses or you make results.  Coaches are hired to lead their teams and teach the kids football as well as good life lessons and work ethic…it’s their responsibility to find kids who will play for them and then it’s their responsibility to make those same kids WANT to play for them.  It’s literally their job….it’s what they were hired to do.  This is what coaching is.

 

Blaming soccer does 2 things

1) it makes an excuse for why your pitch to get kids to play football isn’t working and deflects away from what you as a coach are doing.  It assumes you couldn’t do better and the job done so far was flawless 

 

2) It brings into question why there are not other kids on the team who are not playing soccer who can perform…coaches don’t develop individuals, they develop whole teams….culture…tradition….even if a few kids were to quit and leave for soccer the coaches on that team should have been preparing everyone else just the same.  
 

I’m not going to apologize for saying any of these hard truths.  We are all adults…people need to learn take personal responsibility for their actions

there are plenty of coaches in this state who do so much with so little…their players buy in…the players believe the coach has their best interests at heart and will “run through a wall” for that coach….so pardon me when I don’t buy for a second the excuse of soccer is taking kids away from football to the point of diminishing results. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by hhpatriot04
Edited languague for using BS

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

@SBFootball1

Just the reasoning or really the  idea of blaming soccer as a big reason.  Not counting numbers so much 

 

See now you’re out of line.  You don’t even realize that I don’t live in southern indiana or Indiana at all…and you immediately try to rope me in with the coaches at my alma mater instead of actually debating my point…like you think I represent GS or Coach Hart…I don’t I’m just a fan.  I didn’t even play under Hart.  
 

its not BS by the way…it the real world 

 

you either make excuses or you make results.  Coaches are hired to lead their teams and teach the kids football as well as good life lessons and work ethic…it’s their responsibility to find kids who will play for them and then it’s their responsibility to make those same kids WANT to play for them.  It’s literally their job….it’s what they were hired to do.  This is what coaching is.

 

Blaming soccer does 2 things

1) it makes an excuse for why your pitch to get kids to play football isn’t working and deflects away from what you as a coach are doing.  It assumes you couldn’t do better and the job done so far was flawless 

 

2) It brings into question why there are not other kids on the team who are not playing soccer who can perform…coaches don’t develop individuals, they develop whole teams….culture…tradition….even if a few kids were to quit and leave for soccer the coaches on that team should have been preparing everyone else just the same.  
 

I’m not going to apologize for saying any of these hard truths.  We are all adults…people need to learn take personal responsibility for their actions

there are plenty of coaches in this state who do so much with so little…their players buy in…the players believe the coach has their best interests at heart and will “run through a wall” for that coach….so pardon me when I don’t buy for a second the excuse of soccer is taking kids away from football to the point of diminishing results. 

Youre living in the 70s and 80s.  I didnt blame everything on soccer.  I listed it as a contributing factor to the decline in participation.  You cant fight demographic changes.  And you cant swim against the tide of socio economic realities.  They are both game changers and have changed the landscape of high school football in Indiana.  

20 years ago, Griffith had a state championship caliber football program and a Hall of Fame Coach.  Today, after two decades of demographic turnover and negative socio economic impact, the city is a shell of its former athletic self and can now barely field freshman and jayvee teams let alone a healthy varsity squad (which they don't have either)  

[ASJCPUMA]

Area where factories have closed, people have moved out to the suburbs or farther, and demographics change attributes to much of it.

Inner city schools are down enrollment wise and high schools should be closed like in South Bend but the school board is afraid of charters moving in and more students lost.

Many cities in northern Indiana have seen a population growth in the Latino community.  Goshen Elkhart, South Bend, Laporte so that is another aspect of the total picture and there is nothing wrong in any of these.

How many schools this past year did not have a freshman team or a JV team or both?

And why is that?  The coach? Winning, Parent philosophy?

This can be beaten up in many ways.

[scarab527]

My freshmen year at Andrean, at the beginning of the past decade, we had 35+ plus on the freshmen team (which was large but still around average). Now, they don’t even have a freshmen team. Now that’s just one school, but I think there’s undoubtedly been a drop in numbers across the board, just from what I’ve seen at the games I’ve been too. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, ASJCPUMA said:

Area where factories have closed, people have moved out to the suburbs or farther, and demographics change attributes to much of it.

Inner city schools are down enrollment wise and high schools should be closed like in South Bend but the school board is afraid of charters moving in and more students lost.

Many cities in northern Indiana have seen a population growth in the Latino community.  Goshen Elkhart, South Bend, Laporte so that is another aspect of the total picture and there is nothing wrong in any of these.

How many schools this past year did not have a freshman team or a JV team or both?

And why is that?  The coach? Winning, Parent philosophy?

This can be beaten up in many ways.

Related:

Can anyone tell me how/why Tech High School has suddenly become a premier destination in boys basketball?

They are bucking that inner-city trend but I cannot figure it out for the life of me.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Related:

Can anyone tell me how/why Tech High School has suddenly become a premier destination in boys basketball?

They are bucking that inner-city trend but I cannot figure it out for the life of me.

This was Dr White's plan for Tech/IPS, except he envisioned it happening in football, not basketball.  

One or two transfers, depending on class, can turn a mid level basketball team into a state title contender.  

[temptation]

30 minutes ago, HHF said:

This was Dr White's plan for Tech/IPS, except he envisioned it happening in football, not basketball.  

One or two transfers, depending on class, can turn a mid level basketball team into a state title contender.  

What about 4-5 transfers and an AAU coach?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, temptation said:

What about 4-5 transfers and an AAU coach?

It should actually happen more naturally.  With all the IPS closures over the past decade, the talent should have all funneled to Tech.  

[temptation]

9 minutes ago, HHF said:

It should actually happen more naturally.  With all the IPS closures over the past decade, the talent should have all funneled to Tech.  

From Tennessee, Muncie and Marion?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, temptation said:

From Tennessee, Muncie and Marion?

LOL   That's a different story.  I don't follow hoops.  

[Whiting89]

10 hours ago, HHF said:

Declining numbers are killing high school football programs around the state.  The epicenter of this scourge appears to be north central Indiana, where the proud Plymouth program just suffered through an abysmal 0-10 season and others including Goshen, Wawasee,  and John Glenn are fighting an uphill battle to find enough bodies to fill a full freshman, JV, varsity program.

Coaches will start to walk away when their varsity programs are starting to look more like after school club football.

 

What should be the recommended number of players total before you consider contraction per class?

for example whiting based on the roster provide online seems to have its lowest number ever yet I believe it’s the highest enrollment since inception of class football.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

What should be the recommended number of players total before you consider contraction per class?

for example whiting based on the roster provide online seems to have its lowest number ever yet I believe it’s the highest enrollment since inception of class football.

The IHSAA should mandate MPS (Minimum Participation Standards) by class 

A - 22

AA - 25

AAA - 30

AAAA - 35

AAAAA- - 40

AAAAAA - 45

 

If a school cannot meet the MPS, its sits out for a 2 year period and plays JV football while building up its numbers before a return to varsity play.  Similar to what Noll has done.

I would also add an Opt Out Clause, giving a school the option to opt out of football if it no longer fits the overall athletic profile for any specific school, regardless of class.

 

 

[Footballking16]

10 hours ago, HHF said:

I would also add an Opt Out Clause, giving a school the option to opt out of football if it no longer fits the overall athletic profile for any specific school, regardless of class.

Does a school need permission to not field a football team?

[foxbat]

58 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Does a school need permission to not field a football team?

Seems like that should be their choice, right?

 

10 hours ago, HHF said:

The IHSAA should mandate MPS (Minimum Participation Standards) by class 

A - 22

AA - 25

AAA - 30

AAAA - 35

AAAAA- - 40

AAAAAA - 45

 

If a school cannot meet the MPS, its sits out for a 2 year period and plays JV football while building up its numbers before a return to varsity play.  Similar to what Noll has done.

 

I'm not seeing it.  Three guys make the difference between 1A and 2A and 5 between 2A and 3A?

I think it's a question of the players and not the numbers in 1A. 

It's just going to end up being a situation of gaming the numbers anyway for many that want to have a team regardless of whether they want to be LOS competitive or just "Friday night active."  A 1A team with 20 that wants to play is going to grab 2 kids from the band to say that they are on the team even if they don't play.  There will be similar issues at that 2A level as well.  I don't have an issue with "recommended" numbers, but required for something like extra-curricular activities seems like that would be the call of the individual school.  I'd also like to see some type of science behind the numbers because these look relatively arbitrary.  Is there any research on the ability to complete a season based on number of starting bodies?