Fort Wayne conference re alignment

[NE8_Fan]

With conference races heating up and there being clear signs of the rich staying rich and the weak staying weak, I figured I'd drop another re-alignment thread for Fort Wayne.  I know the SAC just re-aligned but there is also a lot of confusion and some disparity with that. So, for fun, this is my idea.

 

Conference A                              Conference B                     ACAC                         NECC (big)          NECC (small)

Carroll                                          Bishop Dwenger                Norwell                      Concordia            Busco

Homestead                                  Leo                                     Heritage                    Dekalb                  Eastside

Snider                                           New Haven                       Woodlan                    Garrett                  Central Noble

Warsaw                                         East Noble                       Adams Central           Angola                  Fremont

Northside                                     Bishop Luers                    Belmont                     West Noble           Prairie Heights

Northrop                                      Wayne                               Blufton                        Lakeland              Blackhawk Christian

Huntington North                        Columbia City                  South Adams              Fairfield               Southern Wells

                                                     Southside                         Jay County

 

I know this doesn't make every conference strong top to bottom but I also think this line up would also work well with the other money sport (basketball). Purposely left Conference a with 7 teams to allow for 3 out of conference games against top teams from other parts of the state/state.  I think this strengthens the ACAC considerably and creates probably the toughest 4A conference in the state (Conference B).  Also keeps a version of the NECC that adds some strength and puts Blackhawk in a conference that they can grow into as they build the program.

 

[roaringthunderdlr]

Here's what I have:

Conf A: North Side, Northrop, Snider, Homestead, Carroll, Warsaw, Dwenger, Columbia City

Mainly the big schools minus Northrop and Columbia City. CC included for geographic reasons

Conf B: Marion, Huntington North, Jay County, Bellmont, Norwell, New Haven, South Side, Wayne

Medium to small sized schools mainly south of FW.

Conf C East Noble, Leo, New Haven, Luers, DeKalb, Concordia, West Noble, Angola

Medium to small sized schools mainly in or north of FW.

Conf D Adams Central, South Adams, Southern Wells, Bluffton, Heritage, Woodlan, Garrett

Small schools mainly east, southeast, or north of FW

Conf E: Central Noble, Lakeland, Prairie Heights, Fairfield, Fremont, Churubusco, Blackhawk, Eastside

Small schools mainly north, northeast, or northwest of FW.

Hamilton and Westview would be included in this conference.

Edited September 27, 2023 by roaringthunderdlr

[hhpatriot04]

You might be able to use Sagarin's one class basketball sectional optimization for this: http://sagarin.com/sports/yeawildcats.htm

[US31]

For decades I've thought the NLC is holding Warsaw back in most sports (mainly Football)....but I've never gotten the vibe they actually WANT to leave the NLC.  Anyone with insight see it differently?

For clarity, when I say "they" I don't mean Coach Curtis.  I mean the community and school administrators.

[00NWP]

Is the NLC really holding Warsaw back?  Up until the Curtis years, Warsaw did not have a whole lot of success.  Would Warsaw benefit leaving a conference in which they can currently compete for a conference championship and leave for a hypothetical / or real conference toward Fort Wayne...I am just speaking on football.  If I were a player or parent, I wouldn't want to lose multiple regular season games a year...just to face the same schools in the playoffs and probably lose there as well.  Warsaw is having success on the gridiron right now, however, all schools go through a slump and I feel they would regret their decision in the long run.  I know people say, playing better competition throughout the year prepares a team for the playoffs...and that is true...however, that is only true if you are playing other schools than you face during the year. Just my two thoughts on the matter coming from someone whom would not like to see Warsaw leave the NLC as it is one of the best places to watch a game as they have hands down the best consession stands in the area...im talking to you guy who runs the grill!

[oldtimeqb]

4 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

You might be able to use Sagarin's one class basketball sectional optimization for this: http://sagarin.com/sports/yeawildcats.htm

You have just irritated me even more.  If Sagarin already has the algorithm, there is no reason IHSAA can't minimize the distance for football pairings.  So things like Princeton and GS being in separate semi states or Brownstown possibly facing Indianapolis Scecina in sectional wouldn't happen.  

[ragdoll]

IHSAA stuck in the Bobby Cox balls area still.

[NE8_Fan]

1 hour ago, 00NWP said:

Is the NLC really holding Warsaw back?  Up until the Curtis years, Warsaw did not have a whole lot of success.  Would Warsaw benefit leaving a conference in which they can currently compete for a conference championship and leave for a hypothetical / or real conference toward Fort Wayne...I am just speaking on football.  If I were a player or parent, I wouldn't want to lose multiple regular season games a year...just to face the same schools in the playoffs and probably lose there as well.  Warsaw is having success on the gridiron right now, however, all schools go through a slump and I feel they would regret their decision in the long run.  I know people say, playing better competition throughout the year prepares a team for the playoffs...and that is true...however, that is only true if you are playing other schools than you face during the year. Just my two thoughts on the matter coming from someone whom would not like to see Warsaw leave the NLC as it is one of the best places to watch a game as they have hands down the best consession stands in the area...im talking to you guy who runs the grill!

Speaking of NLC, my DREAM conference for 4A would take Conference B and sub in NorthWood and Northridge in place of Southside and Wayne.   I think travel would be a hindrance but man that would be murderers row of a conference.

 

[NE8Fan]

SAC BIG: Homestead, Carroll, Snider, Northrop, North

SAC SMALL: Dwenger, South, Wayne, BL, Concordia

NEIC BIG: Angola, Leo, East Noble, Columbia City, H North, Dekalb, New Haven

NEIC SMALL: Norwell, Bellmont, AC, SA, Bluffton, Heritage, Woodlan

NECC: West Noble, Central Noble, Garrett, Eastside, Busco, Fairfield, Lakeland

Name TBD: P Heights, Blackhawk, Fremont, SWells, Wabash, Northfield, Southwood

 

[NLCTigerFan07]

4 hours ago, US31 said:

For decades I've thought the NLC is holding Warsaw back in most sports (mainly Football)....but I've never gotten the vibe they actually WANT to leave the NLC.  Anyone with insight see it differently?

For clarity, when I say "they" I don't mean Coach Curtis.  I mean the community and school administrators.

Correct - there is no desire for Warsaw to leave the NLC

[Blue Racer]

3 hours ago, NE8Fan said:

SAC BIG: Homestead, Carroll, Snider, Northrop, North

SAC SMALL: Dwenger, South, Wayne, BL, Concordia

NEIC BIG: Angola, Leo, East Noble, Columbia City, H North, Dekalb, New Haven

NEIC SMALL: Norwell, Bellmont, AC, SA, Bluffton, Heritage, Woodlan

NECC: West Noble, Central Noble, Garrett, Eastside, Busco, Fairfield, Lakeland

Name TBD: P Heights, Blackhawk, Fremont, SWells, Wabash, Northfield, Southwood

 

Don't see Southwood going to P. Heights or Fremont anytime soon.

[Komets2727]

4 hours ago, NE8Fan said:

SAC BIG: Homestead, Carroll, Snider, Northrop, North

SAC SMALL: Dwenger, South, Wayne, BL, Concordia

NEIC BIG: Angola, Leo, East Noble, Columbia City, H North, Dekalb, New Haven

NEIC SMALL: Norwell, Bellmont, AC, SA, Bluffton, Heritage, Woodlan

NECC: West Noble, Central Noble, Garrett, Eastside, Busco, Fairfield, Lakeland

Name TBD: P Heights, Blackhawk, Fremont, SWells, Wabash, Northfield, Southwood

 

Love the idea, but too much travel for some teams

Edited September 27, 2023 by Komets2727

[US31]

23 hours ago, 00NWP said:

Is the NLC really holding Warsaw back?  Up until the Curtis years, Warsaw did not have a whole lot of success.  Would Warsaw benefit leaving a conference in which they can currently compete for a conference championship and leave for a hypothetical / or real conference toward Fort Wayne...I am just speaking on football.  If I were a player or parent, I wouldn't want to lose multiple regular season games a year...just to face the same schools in the playoffs and probably lose there as well.  Warsaw is having success on the gridiron right now, however, all schools go through a slump and I feel they would regret their decision in the long run.  I know people say, playing better competition throughout the year prepares a team for the playoffs...and that is true...however, that is only true if you are playing other schools than you face during the year. Just my two thoughts on the matter coming from someone whom would not like to see Warsaw leave the NLC as it is one of the best places to watch a game as they have hands down the best consession stands in the area...im talking to you guy who runs the grill!

But have they had ANY success OUTSIDE the NLC???  I only see once sectional champtionship as far back as 1994??  A coach Curtis team beat Penn, and then lost to MVill in the regional.  Is that one singluar sectional trophy in almost 30 years success??? 

They have almost always went to FtW for sectionals....those are the teams Warsaw needs to beat to make a tournament run.  If you look back, their season has ended in the sectionals to either a FtW area team or Penn.  Currently in Sectional 2, they need to beat Penn, Carroll, or both.  There aren't many teams in the NLC that are preparing them for that.  Being in a FtW conference would do exactly that. 

Unless the goal is to be the big fish in the NLC pond....in which case, carry on.  I don't begrudge then that at all....their community, their school, more power to them. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by US31

[NE8Fan]

17 hours ago, Blue Racer said:

Don't see Southwood going to P. Heights or Fremont anytime soon.

They already share a sectional (Southwood and Fremont)

[psaboy]

Interesting article on South Side, Will be interesting to see if they can build on what has started. 

[hhpatriot04]

23 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

You have just irritated me even more.  If Sagarin already has the algorithm, there is no reason IHSAA can't minimize the distance for football pairings.  So things like Princeton and GS being in separate semi states or Brownstown possibly facing Indianapolis Scecina in sectional wouldn't happen.  

Supposedly the alignments change and shift because the IHSAA alternates the directions from which it starts grouping teams. For example, one cycle they might start from Meridian and Washington, then go either NE, SE, NW, or SW. The next cycle, they start in the NW corner of the state then start grouping teams,  then SE, NE, SW, repeat...

Clear as mud? 

[00NWP]

45 minutes ago, US31 said:

But have they had ANY success OUTSIDE the NLC???  I only see once sectional champtionship as far back as 1994??  A coach Curtis team beat Penn, and then lost to MVill in the regional.  Is that one singluar sectional trophy in almost 30 years success??? 

They have almost always went to FtW for sectionals....those are the teams Warsaw needs to beat to make a tournament run.  If you look back, their season has ended in the sectionals to either a FtW area team or Penn.  Currently in Sectional 2, they need to beat Penn, Carroll, or both.  There aren't many teams in the NLC that are preparing them for that.  Being in a FtW conference would do exactly that. 

Unless the goal is to be the big fish in the NLC pond....in which case, carry on.  I don't begrudge then that at all....their community, their school, more power to them. 

You are correct...they have only ever won 1 sectional championship their history.  If they were to move to a conference playing the likes of a Snider or Carroll during the year...they will consistently lose those games.  With loses comes smaller numbers in a program.  I can remember a time when a team like NorthWood had almost double the amount of kids on the sidelines compared to Warsaw.  Success builds a program.  Losing regular season games does not make you better in the long run...winning does.  If Warsaw was better than the NLC and thought it would help them...they would have left along time ago.  And this is just talking about football...Warsaw would also get dominated in almost every sport moving conferences. 

[BTF]

25 minutes ago, 00NWP said:

You are correct...they have only ever won 1 sectional championship their history.  If they were to move to a conference playing the likes of a Snider or Carroll during the year...they will consistently lose those games.  With loses comes smaller numbers in a program.  I can remember a time when a team like NorthWood had almost double the amount of kids on the sidelines compared to Warsaw.  Success builds a program.  Losing regular season games does not make you better in the long run...winning does.  If Warsaw was better than the NLC and thought it would help them...they would have left along time ago.  And this is just talking about football...Warsaw would also get dominated in almost every sport moving conferences. 

Homestead got wasted by Snider for years and Carroll was just never good enough to even play Snider the amount of times Homestead did. Insert both teams into the SAC in 2015. People now see Homestead and Carroll as Snider's equals. It's easier to become a better team when you know what the benchmark is during the regular season versus your last game of the season. Better competition for Warsaw will result in a better program.

[US31]

26 minutes ago, 00NWP said:

You are correct...they have only ever won 1 sectional championship their history.  If they were to move to a conference playing the likes of a Snider or Carroll during the year...they will consistently lose those games.  With loses comes smaller numbers in a program.  I can remember a time when a team like NorthWood had almost double the amount of kids on the sidelines compared to Warsaw.  Success builds a program.  Losing regular season games does not make you better in the long run...winning does.  If Warsaw was better than the NLC and thought it would help them...they would have left along time ago.  And this is just talking about football...Warsaw would also get dominated in almost every sport moving conferences. 

Well....perhaps they'll be back in 5A soon....and Snider might SF up. 👍

Hoping to succesfully dodge your peer sized opponents just seems to be an odd way to define a successful program.  If Warsaw was playing some of the FtW powers and Penn in their Non-Con games I'd be sympathetic to that argument (and to his credit, Coach Curtis has definitley improved their non-con opponents).  

[US31]

7 minutes ago, BTF said:

Homestead got wasted by Snider for years and Carroll was just never good enough to even play Snider the amount of times Homestead did. Insert both teams into the SAC in 2015. People now see Homestead and Carroll as Snider's equals. It's easier to become a better team when you know what the benchmark is during the regular season versus your last game of the season. Better competition for Warsaw will result in a better program.

I see his argument as "Well, we're gonna lose to those teams no matter what....so we definitley don't want it to happen twice in the same year."

It doesn't seem Carroll and Homestead subscribe to that logic.  Not too many years ago, Warsaw would have mopped the floor with Carroll.  Last year, Carroll was playing after Thanksgiving having knocking off a loaded HSE squad.  

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, US31 said:

I see his argument as "Well, we're gonna lose to those teams no matter what....so we definitley don't want it to happen twice in the same year."

It doesn't seem Carroll and Homestead subscribe to that logic.  Not too many years ago, Warsaw would have mopped the floor with Carroll.  Last year, Carroll was playing after Thanksgiving having knocking off a loaded HSE squad.  

If Carroll and Homestead can do it, I don't see why Warsaw can't. They have a good coach, they just have to stiffen up the competition. They currently sit at a respectable 5-1 and will probably enter sectional play at 8-1 as a result of a weak schedule. Nine wins is the cap for this team. When they run into Carroll or Penn, it's over.........and it probably won't be close. They need two top ten programs on their schedule........they have one of them starting in 2025. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

If Carroll and Homestead can do it, I don't see why Warsaw can't. They have a good coach, they just have to stiffen up the competition. They currently sit at a respectable 5-1 and will probably enter sectional play at 8-1 as a result of a weak schedule. Nine wins is the cap for this team. When they run into Carroll or Penn, it's over.........and it probably won't be close. They need two top ten programs on their schedule........they have one of them starting in 2025. 

Warsaw is similar to Penn, they are a 6A team on an island. It wasn't until the unification of Elkhart we got another 6A team inside a 1hr drive. With the problems that the NIC is about to have with three teams leaving the "small school" division, Penn is going back to playing Riley, Washington and Adams each year. Elkhart has the luxury of being tight with NLC schools, Penn will never be invited to play in that conference, and it does not make much sense for them to move that direction. Penn should move to the DAC, but that is a lot of travel week in and week out especially for JV and freshman games.  (I looked at the other sports, Penn is consistently playing teams from the DAC and Summit during their seasons, this move would not affect them as much). 

There just aren't many options in the north central part of our state for bigger schools. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by BLACKGOLD2007

[BTF]

12 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Warsaw is similar to Penn, they are a 6A team on an island. It wasn't until the unification of Elkhart we got another 6A team inside a 1hr drive. With the problems that the NIC is about to have with three teams leaving the "small school" division, Penn is going back to playing Riley, Washington and Adams each year. Elkhart has the luxury of being tight with NLC schools, Penn will never be invited to play in that conference, and it does not make much sense for them to move that direction. Penn should move to the DAC, but that is a lot of travel week in and week out especially for JV and freshman games.  (I looked at the other sports, Penn is consistently playing teams from the DAC and Summit during their seasons, this move would not affect them as much). 

There just aren't many options in the north central part of our state for bigger schools. 

Penn seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Any chance of them going independent? I feel that they are making a strong effort landing games with Valpo, Mishawaka, and Cathedral. New Prairie is a formidable opponent. It's not their fault that Elkhart is lousy. Of the other four teams on their schedule, they need to get rid of at least one and land a Fort Wayne team, Snider preferably to renew a rivalry. Homestead or Carroll would suffice. I don't see anything wrong with 2 or 3 guaranteed wins. Those are good to rest some starters and give their second and third stringers valuable playing time. 

[Komets2727]

Plain and simple, Warsaw is a 6A school playing 3A and 4A teams and having their way during the regular season and then playing 6A schools in the playoffs and are one and done. If the Warsaw community is fine with that, more power to them, if not, get better by playing 6A schools more frequently. Simple solution, but won’t be done

Edited September 28, 2023 by Komets2727

[US31]

4 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Plain and simple, Warsaw is a 6A school playing 3A and 4A teams and having their way during the regular season and then playing 6A schools in the playoffs and are one and done. If the Warsaw community is fine with that, more power to them, if not, get better by playing 6A schools more frequently. Simple solution, but won’t be done

To be fair…I don’t think there are anymore 3A schools in the NLC.  Your point is spot on…but it’s 4A and 5A.

Edited September 28, 2023 by US31