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Muda69

"football and school don't go together"

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Muda69    3,008

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/20284353/josh-rosen-ucla-bruins-says-football-school-go-together-ponders-alabama-success-sat-requirement-raised

Quote

UCLA quarterback Josh Rosen discussed the academic challenges involved with being a college football player in a wide-ranging interview with Bleacher Report, saying "football and school don't go together" and suggesting that Alabama would not be as successful if the Crimson Tide were to raise the SAT requirement.

Rosen, who has been outspoken on the issue of amateurism in college sports, told Bleacher Report that "human beings don't belong in school with our schedules."

When asked about the inherent conflict of being a college student and a football player, Rosen referred to Alabama, which won four of the past eight national championships.

"Look, football and school don't go together," Rosen said. "They just don't. Trying to do both is like trying to do two full-time jobs. There are guys who have no business being in school, but they're here because this is the path to the NFL. There's no other way.

"Then there's the other side that says raise the SAT eligibility requirements. OK, raise the SAT requirement at Alabama and see what kind of team they have. You lose athletes and then the product on the field suffers."

Rosen, an economics major who is entering his junior season at UCLA, focused on the lucrative business of college football, saying "there's so much money being made in this sport."

"No one in their right mind should have a football player's schedule and go to school," he said. "It's not that some players shouldn't be in school; it's just that universities should help them more -- instead of just finding ways to keep them eligible.

...

Young Mr. Rosen is correct.

 

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Footballking16    519
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Muda69 said:

He brings up a good point but I don't necessarily believe Rosen is correct. It sounds like the economics major isn't very fond of capitalism, which is how the NCAA operates.

Good luck trying to sell the NCAA that college and college football don't go together. If you aren't a college student then good luck playing college athletics. That will never change.

"No one in their right mind should have a football player's schedule and go to school," he said. "It's not that some players shouldn't be in school; it's just that universities should help them more -- instead of just finding ways to keep them eligible".

This statement quoted above by Rosen is what absolutely drives me nuts; "its just that the universities should help them more". I find that incredibly hypocritical. What more can a University do other than provide hundreds and thousands of dollars in scholarships for a free education, free living, free food, private tutors, access to state of the art workout facilities, personal trainers and strength coaches, and national media exposure. Factor in costs of travel, lodging, meals all while away from the university on road games. You're talking about expenses that total up to almost $500k in some cases for kids that stay all four years. I don't see what more a University can do in terms of "helping them more". God forbid you pay your own way through school, while working a full-time job, and graduating thousands of dollars in debt from student loans. Even if you don't make it to the professional level once your college career is up, a D1 athlete on a full-ride scholarship is already way ahead of the curve than 99.9% of their peers, simply by being a college athlete.

My spiel is this and it's rather simple. If you don't like your employer profiting off you, in this case your university or the NCAA, don't sign a letter of intent to play college athletics. The last time I checked I've never seen a recruit sign on the dotted with a gun pointed to their head. If a free education, exposure, training, etc isn't enough to offset your perceived worth to your university don't play sports for that university, it's that simple. I just don't understand how or why this is still an on-going debate and why people continually try and change the rules of capitalism.

 

Edited by Footballking16
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Muda69    3,008
17 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

He brings up a good point but I don't necessarily believe Rosen is correct. It sounds like the economics major isn't very fond of capitalism, which is how the NCAA operates.

Good luck trying to sell the NCAA that college and college football don't go together. If you aren't a college student then good luck playing college athletics. That will never change.

"No one in their right mind should have a football player's schedule and go to school," he said. "It's not that some players shouldn't be in school; it's just that universities should help them more -- instead of just finding ways to keep them eligible".

This statement quoted above by Rosen is what absolutely drives me nuts; "its just that the universities should help them more". I find that incredibly hypocritical. What more can a University do other than provide hundreds and thousands of dollars in scholarships for a free education, free living, free food, private tutors, access to state of the art workout facilities, personal trainers and strength coaches, and national media exposure. Factor in costs of travel, lodging, meals all while away from the university on road games. You're talking about expenses that total up to almost $500k in some cases for kids that stay all four years. I don't see what more a University can do in terms of "helping them more". God forbid you pay your own way through school, while working a full-time job, and graduating thousands of dollars in debt from student loans. Even if you don't make it to the professional level once your college career is up, a D1 athlete on a full-ride scholarship is already way ahead of the curve than 99.9% of their peers, simply by being a college athlete.

My spiel is this and it's rather simple. If you don't like your employer profiting off you, in this case your university or the NCAA, don't sign a letter of intent to play college athletics. The last time I checked I've never seen a recruit sign on the dotted with a gun pointed to their head. If a free education, exposure, training, etc isn't enough to offset your perceived worth to your university don't play sports for that university, it's that simple. I just don't understand how or why this is still an on-going debate and why people continually try and change the rules of capitalism.

 

Beyond the financial considerations do you also place any stock in Mr. Rosen's assertion that more and more D1 athletics like football and basketball is "like trying to do two full-time jobs"?  That the time demands put on these student-athletes from the athletic side is simply becoming too much?

 

 

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Footballking16    519
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Beyond the financial considerations do you also place any stock in Mr. Rosen's assertion that more and more D1 athletics like football and basketball is "like trying to do two full-time jobs"?  That the time demands put on these student-athletes from the athletic side is simply becoming too much?

 

 

How is that any different than a student who pays their OWN way who also works 20-30 hour weeks? College athletics is a privilege, not a right, too many people forget that. If you can't balance both, either quit sports and become a full-time student or quit school and train on your own until you're draft eligible. Seems like a pretty easy solution don't you think?

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Muda69    3,008
1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

How is that any different than a student who pays their OWN way who also works 20-30 hour weeks? College athletics is a privilege, not a right, too many people forget that. If you can't balance both either quit sports and become a full-time student or quit school and train on your own until your draft eligible. Seems like a pretty easy solution don't you think?

My suspicion is, that at least for the money making D1 sports, scholarships athletes in this sport are required to spend more than 30 hours a week on that sport.  

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/pac-12-study-reveals-athletes-too-exhausted-to-study-effectively/

Quote

Pac-12 athletes spend an average of 50 hours per week on their sport and are often "too exhausted to study effectively," a Pac-12 study revealed this month.

A sampling of 409 conference athletes found that while they are "generally satisfied", they are "stressed" and time demands from their sports create "anxiety and a loss of sleep that hinders academic and athletic performance." The study also concluded that physical exhaustion is a "major issue."

...

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2008-01-12-athletes-full-time-work-study_n.htm

Quote
Rules say major-college football coaches can demand only 20 hours of their players' time a week.

But those players say they more than double that during the season and athletes in a half-dozen other sports indicate they, too, are putting in the equivalent of full-time work weeks, a newly released NCAA survey shows.

...

— Football players in the NCAA's Division I Bowl Subdivision (formerly known as Division I-A) said they spent an average of 44.8 hours a week on their sport — playing games, practicing, training and in the training room — compared with a little less than 40 hours on academics.

— Division I baseball players said they spent 40 hours on their sport, 32 on academics. In men's basketball, it was 36.8 hours on their sport vs. 33.9 hours on academics.

— Women's basketball was little less time-intensive, players saying they spent a little more than 36 hours on their game vs. a little more than 37 on classwork.

— Other sports exceeding or approaching a 37 1/2-hour work week were men's golf (40.8) and hockey (37.6) and women's softball (37.1).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bdavidridpath/2016/01/26/it-is-time-to-re-frame-college-athletes-time-commitments/#46579fdcbc62

Quote

Who should be making the call on how much time a college athlete can or should be spending on his/her athletic endeavors? That is a difficult one but certainly you need an athlete voice, better yet several athlete voices, to properly ascertain how much time should be spent on any formal practice and competition activities. On the other hand, I don't know too many athletes who don't want to spend more time to get better at their craft, but that too can take away from academic primacy. So it is a bit of a kerfuffle, but let's try to make it simple rather than over complicating it.

College sports is supposed to be about education first-right? Yet almost everything we do with regard to athletically related activities in college sports is usually done for competitive and not educational aspects. Due to the insatiable thirst for television exposure, winning, and revenue generation, teams are playing at all hours of the night, more often that not on school nights, and the travel demands have increased exponentially with conference realignment. In other words--athletic success and exposure are driving the athletically related time demand decisions we are making on college campuses every day and the chance to be an actual college student is becoming less and less.

I know many, including many athletes, will still agree with that approach and in many ways I don't see it as completely bad since educationally based sports make up about 90% of the sport development options in the United States. What other choice do many have, especially those who are elite in their sport? However we need to make some decisions about our educationally based sports model in America and re-frame our thinking. With regard to intercollegiate athletics I have continually stated that the current model we have does not work. I could spend days discussing the flaws and reasons for reform, but to keep it concise we must finally admit that what we are doing does not work and it is time to consider other approaches to sport development in America. In college sports we have to make a decision-is it about education first, or athletic success first? Then we must go one way or another and we cannot continue to dip our toes in both sides of the water hoping for the best. The current model will implode and it is not a matter of if, it is a matter or when it will happen.

 

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Footballking16    519
12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I understand your points, but these scholarship athletes want to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody is forcing anybody to play collegiate athletics. If you can't manage both you have a choice not to compete. I'm sorry but I really have no pity. A college athlete who gets all their expenses paid for by simply having a "gift" has it better than 99.9% of their peers.

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Muda69    3,008
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I understand your points, but these scholarship athletes want to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody is forcing anybody to play collegiate athletics. If you can't manage both you have a choice not to compete. I'm sorry but I really have no pity. A college athlete who gets all their expenses paid for by simply having a "gift" has it better than 99.9% of their peers.

And I tend to agree with you .  I just wish the NCAA and it's member schools would just end the sham that is the 'student-athlete'.  It is now the 'athlete-student' with the student part of that equation becoming increasingly marginalized.

Edited by Muda69
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Footballking16    519
14 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

And I tend to agree with you .  I just wish the NCAA and it's member schools would just end the shame that is the 'student-athlete'.  It is now the 'athlete-student' with the student part of that equation becoming increasingly marginalized.

The NCAA is partly to blame but I think you'd see the charade of D1 athletics, especially football and men's basketball, as de facto "farm systems" end if these professional sports reduced eligibility requirements. For the NFL you have to be 3 years removed from your senior of high school to be draft eligible, and there's really no middle ground except to got o college and play. At least in basketball you could go play overseas for the year you need to be removed from high school until your eligible for the NBA draft. 

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Trojan Dad    1,522
Posted (edited)

Mr. Rosen needs to educate swimmers, wrestlers, lacrosse players, etc. Not sure if anyone works harder than a swimmer....and most are not on full rides.  Football players are far from the only athletes that invest significant time.

I wonder how the football players at the service academies make it?  Ever see their course loads?  Responsibilities outside of the classroom and athletic field?  How they spend their summers?

That being said, he does make a good point about university priorities.  Football brings in the cash, and cash is king.  I work with a friend who had a son that was being recruited for major sport.  During his visit to Purdue the coach asked him about his desired major.  He told him engineering.  The coach told him he didn't align with that choice and as such, he had no engineering students on his team.  He ended up at West Point playing the sport....with an engineering degree.  He's now a pilot in the US Army.  So I would agree with Mr. Rosen that many major academic institutions have lost their way in this regard.

Edited by Trojan Dad
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Andy G    228
19 hours ago, Trojan Dad said:

Mr. Rosen needs to educate swimmers, wrestlers, lacrosse players, etc. Not sure if anyone works harder than a swimmer....and most are not on full rides.  Football players are far from the only athletes that invest significant time.

I wonder how the football players at the service academies make it?  Ever see their course loads?  Responsibilities outside of the classroom and athletic field?  How they spend their summers?

That being said, he does make a good point about university priorities.  Football brings in the cash, and cash is king.  I work with a friend who has a son that was being recruited for major sport.  During his visit to Purdue the coach asked him about his desired major.  He told him engineering.  The coach told him he didn't align with that choice and as such, he had no engineering students on his team.  He ended up at West Point playing the sport....with an engineering degree.  He's now a pilot in the US Army.  So I would agree with Mr. Rosen that many major academic institutions have lost their way in this regard.

Very sad, considering that Purdue is, first and foremost, an engineering school. I've always figured that Purdue has an advantage recruiting engineering recruits.

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Trojan Dad    1,522
20 minutes ago, Andy G said:

Very sad, considering that Purdue is, first and foremost, an engineering school. I've always figured that Purdue has an advantage recruiting engineering recruits.

I agree Andy....I was a little dumbstruck when I was told the story how his son was guided not to select engineering as a major.  I am not saying all athletic programs as Purdue guide their recruits in the same direction...this may have been isolated to the one program.

My nephew plays football currently for Rose Hulman...its wild to look at their roster and see that every player is an engineering major.  Very impressive.  And they won their conference last year and went to the Div III playoffs.

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5 hours ago, Trojan Dad said:

I agree Andy....I was a little dumbstruck when I was told the story how his son was guided not to select engineering as a major.  I am not saying all athletic programs as Purdue guide their recruits in the same direction...this may have been isolated to the one program.

My nephew plays football currently for Rose Hulman...its wild to look at their roster and see that every player is an engineering major.  Very impressive.  And they won their conference last year and went to the Div III playoffs.

IU's former Softball coach flat told kids, if you're in a major that requires clinicals, you won't play Softball at IU. Daughter graduated from Marian with a good chunk of her teammates being Nursing majors, they miss practices, they're occasionally late for games, but school does come first. 

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