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BuckLateral

"Offensive" Team names, a la Washington

46 posts in this topic

One difference pointed out to me several years ago comparing names like the Irish, Vikings, Yankees to names like Redskins, Indians, Chiefs, is the people identifying and using the names are part of the group.  There are a lot of Norwegians in Minnesota and the Vikings come from an area known as Vik...also the area where my family came from.  I doubt there were a lot of Native Americans involved with the NFL team in Washington when the name was selected.

 

The NCAA made a policy several years ago requiring about 20 universities to change their mascots because they were "offensive".  They were allowed to keep their name if they got a local tribe to agree it was OK.  Many got that approval.  Some did with modifications (i.e. I believe Illinois could still use Illini but could not use an Indian mascot).  Some decided to change their name.  1 drug it out for years...University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux.  It's a very long story, but they had to get approval from 2 tribes.  1 gave them the approval, but the leadership of the other tribe refused to vote (allegedly most member of the tribe supported the use of the name but could not convince their leadership to vote).  They currently have no mascot.  They have like 5 years to come up with a new one (I think they are 1 year in).

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Two questions Wabash:

1. I often refer to Lutherans as "krauts". I live in a Lutheran town, and even though I'm not Lutheran, I married one, does that give me the right?

2. I deal with several foreign machinery companies, German and Italian mostly. I once had a disagreement between myself and an Italian company. I was dealing with the salesman, VP, and an electrical engineer. I would say something then the VP and the engineer would talk in Italian, which got to the point of infuriating me. Now I don't know whether it was the fact that I threw my empty Coke can on the floor or the me yelling at nearly the top of my lungs "ENGLISH YOU FU#*ING WOPS!" But they came right around to my way of thinking and spoke very clear English the rest of the conversation. While I'd admit probably not the most tactful approach, we did come to a pretty quick resolution and saved us all a bunch of time.

What is question 2?

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What is question 2?

Should I have protracted the engagement and continued chasing our tails by playing nice? The VP still brings up the story when I see him, even though he's with another company now. He laughs about it now.

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As an Irish-American, my reaction to my cousin calling me a "mick", and my reaction to some stranger doing it, would likely be very different, and justifiably.   Is it okay for white people to use the N-word to refer to a black person because some black people do it?

It's okay for Clint Eastwood! ;)

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Are you offended:

 

FightingWhites.png

 

Hell no.  I kinda like it.

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   The  Washington Redskins drop the word "Washington" from their name ..........because it's embarrassing.

 

Ya beat me to it Momma...

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As a long-time, diehard Washington Redskin fan, this one hits close to home with me. I have loved the team since Vince Lombardi coached them before he died. I watched as George Allen brought his "Over the Hill Gang" to DC, Joe Gibbs won three Super Bowls with 3 different QB's and Dan Snyder used them as his personal fantasy football team - buying every washed up, ex-legend (Bruce Smith, Deion Sanders) or high priced free agent (Jeff George, Albert Haynesworth.)

 

But I have to say in all that time I sure never thought of the name as being disparaging to Native Americans. I think of a proud, strong courageous warrior and have thought that the logo on the helmet was one of the best tributes to Native Americans that I have seen.

 

I don't believe it was ever disparaging to anyone nor was it meant to be. I have seen reference to polls where a majority of Native Americans have no problem with it. I've seen examples of high schools in the west with a majority of Native American students that use "Redskins" as their mascot. I've read that "Redskins" was a name they called each other. I've heard it said that Oklahoma means "red man" or "red people" (okla meaning "people" and humma meaning "red"). Do we need to change the name of the state?

 

I think much of this is manufactured by the media. The Washington Post runs (almost daily it seems) articles on how the name must be changed. Bob Costas? Well, he's entitled to his opinion. Most of those opposed seem to be the crash and burn types that like to show how open minded they are when fighting someone else's fight.

 

There are many in Washington now saying that they should change the mascot to a potato and keep the 'Redskins' name.

 

Sorry I rambled on like this but I don't think it's meant to offend, I don't think it does offend and I hope they don't change it.

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Sports talk radio is rife with discussions about the pressure being brought to bear on the NFL Washington team (won't say their controversial nickname) to change its name.

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Redskins

Too late. White America has spoken. You aren't offended, so we'll be offended for you:

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The Fighting Whites is a great story, very similar to the supposed slur "cracker."  Oops, no one was offended. 

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Had to post it....

 

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The Fighting Whites is a great story, very similar to the supposed slur "cracker."  Oops, no one was offended. 

 

Not offended at all, but the term "cracker" refers to the Whip and the "cracking sound" that was made as they whipped slaves.

 

So in fact the term "cracker" is a direct indictment/descendant term of white slave masters.  Just for your information.....people.

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ROFLMBAO...

 

This issue, and THIS particular term is hard to put into a precise viewpoint.  I totally understand the history of the franchise (ownership and racial insensitivity), but the nickname is a separate issue.

 

I will just lurk and listen (read) those that are not impacted at all, pontificate.  Truly insightful, IMO.  

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ROFLMBAO...

 

This issue, and THIS particular term is hard to put into a precise viewpoint.  I totally understand the history of the franchise (ownership and racial insensitivity), but the nickname is a separate issue.

 

I will just lurk and listen (read) those that are not impacted at all, pontificate.  Truly insightful, IMO.  

While I am not impacted by the Redskins name, I am by the Notre Dame nickname, and can say that the last two or three of generations of Irish are likely not offended, there was a point in time it was meant as a derogatory term. During the Civil War, the Irish were isolated in their own units. They were well known for their drinking in camp, and as well known for their fighting, in camp as well. The 69th New York Regiment was the unit given the nickname, more in a way to be made fun of instead of a "badge of honor". I do not find it offensive, but maybe time has been a factor in that?

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While I am not impacted by the Redskins name, I am by the Notre Dame nickname, and can say that the last two or three of generations of Irish are likely not offended, there was a point in time it was meant as a derogatory term. During the Civil War, the Irish were isolated in their own units. They were well known for their drinking in camp, and as well known for their fighting, in camp as well. The 69th New York Regiment was the unit given the nickname, more in a way to be made fun of instead of a "badge of honor". I do not find it offensive, but maybe time has been a factor in that?

 

Well at the same time, at least from my understanding of what I've read and have been told, most of the stereotypes about the Irish (particularly the drinking and fighting) is something they were kind of proud of.

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Well at the same time, at least from my understanding of what I've read and have been told, most of the stereotypes about the Irish (particularly the drinking and fighting) is something they were kind of proud of.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I will say this; that I am pretty certain that my grandfather, and many others like him were not too jovial about it when faced with the "teasing" along those lines while trying to find work after immigrating here; especially near places that had the "Irish need not apply" signs in their doors.They would hear multiple times, something along the lines of, "I am sure the bars are looking for drunks, try there", or "why don't you Irish just fight each other for money? We'd pay to see it."  Nowadays, sure I can laugh when someone says something about the drinking habits of the Irish, but again, different times as well as different intent behind the message; at least I hope it is.

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I have read that many Native Americans actually take a lot of pride in the the name "redskin." Native Americans were actually the first ones to use the term, as well.

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Two questions Wabash:

1. I often refer to Lutherans as "krauts". I live in a Lutheran town, and even though I'm not Lutheran, I married one, does that give me the right?

2. I deal with several foreign machinery companies, German and Italian mostly. I once had a disagreement between myself and an Italian company. I was dealing with the salesman, VP, and an electrical engineer. I would say something then the VP and the engineer would talk in Italian, which got to the point of infuriating me. Now I don't know whether it was the fact that I threw my empty Coke can on the floor or the me yelling at nearly the top of my lungs "ENGLISH YOU FU#*ING WOPS!" But they came right around to my way of thinking and spoke very clear English the rest of the conversation. While I'd admit probably not the most tactful approach, we did come to a pretty quick resolution and saved us all a bunch of time.

 

1. Are you offending these people by calling them that? That's the whole point isn't it?  The "krauts" get to decide if its offensive for you to call them that, not you.  And if they tell you that it is, then you'd be sort of a dikc to keep doing it, regardless of who you are married to, don't ya think?

 

2.  I didn't see a question. But relevant to my point, you used the term because you meant to be offensive, right?  So are you saying that the Washington football team has some good cause or justification for offending Native-Americans (assuming they are offended) that's comparable to your situation?   

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The Redskins issue is being blown out of proportion because of the owner's letter about NOT changing the team's name.

 

You can't blanketedly say any reference to any group is racist. It must be handled on an individual basis. Also, I believe the honus is on the offended party to prove why the material is offensive.

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The Redskins issue is being blown out of proportion because of the owner's letter about NOT changing the team's name.

 

You can't blanketedly say any reference to any group is racist. It must be handled on an individual basis. Also, I believe the honus is on the offended party to prove why the material is offensive.

 

Yeah, I agree that the owner fanned the flames.  A "we are looking at the issue carefully" statement would've been the better way to go, even if the truth is that he is not currently contemplating changing the name. 

 

I also agree with your second, point, but let's not also act naïve about the thing, either.  I agree that someone reading Huckleberry Finn who wants all the n-words removed because the use of that word by the author is "racists" and offensive is a clueless person -- context obviously means something.  But context cuts both ways: if some white guy driving his car pass a group of black people on the street yells the n-word at them out his window, nobody would say that the white guy should get the benefit of the doubt and that the onus is on the black guys to "prove" that he had an intent to offend when he used the word. 

 

As has been mentioned several times on here, this situation is not cut-and-dry, because "Redskins" is not considered offensive by some Native-Americans, but it is by some others, and in light of the term's differing origins, neither group is objectively unreasonable in either considering it offensive or not offensive.  That is why this is not just a "some people being PC" issue, as many make it out to be.  But it also is why it is probably a matter that really ought to be addressed between the team owner and those Native-Americans groups who are offended by the term.  

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