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New $1B dollar, 20,000 seat stadium downtown…


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3 minutes ago, BTF said:

Mostly tourism tax dollars? How much will this affect a local homeowner?

https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-sports-stadiums-create-new-jobs-and-tax-revenues/

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So how do politicians justify using tax dollars to build stadiums? The story is simple. A sports team means more spending on sports. And more spending on sports means more spending in town. And more spending in town means more jobs and tax revenue!

But that logic is bad for several reasons.

First, the data just doesn’t pan out. As Michael Leeds summarizes in his textbook, The Economics of Sports:

From the pathbreaking work of Robert Baade and Richard Dye to recent research by Baade, Victor Matheson and Robert Baumann, or Dennis Coates and Brad Humphreys, economists have consistently found little or no evidence that facilities and teams affect the level of employment, tax receipts, incomes, or wages in a city.

So, myth busted. But why? Well, the first thing to note is that the people who go to home games are mostly people from in-town. Those people don’t spend additional money in town when they go to a sporting event. They spend money that they would have spent elsewhere in town. Instead of a nice lunch, people go to a ballgame and get a hotdog.

In other words, this is substitutionary spending—not new spending.

And what about out-of-town visitors? Well, given the data shows no impact, it must be the case that this spending just isn’t very significant. Perhaps it’s outweighed by die-hard Chiefs fans spending their money in other cities during away games.

But this isn’t even the most important reason why stadiums don’t help the economy! Even if a new sports team did create new spending, jobs, and tax revenue, this would not mean the city would experience economic growth.

To understand why, consider Frédéric Bastiat’s explanation of the broken window fallacy. Bastiat’s parable explains why spending by itself is not necessarily a boon to the economy.

Imagine a vandal breaking a shop owner's window. The shop owner now has to use money to buy a new window. Buying a new window makes work for a glassmaker, who now has more money to buy something else and make more jobs.

So if we want a simple way to grow the economy while adding income and jobs, we should just go around breaking windows right?

By now alarm bells should be going off in your head. Something is wrong here.

The problem is, this example is ignoring what is lost by creating work for the glassmaker. The shop owner now has less money to spend or save. Perhaps that means in order to replace the window the shop owner must give up buying a new suit. Or maybe the money used for the window would have been put in the bank to be loaned out to a new business.

So now, not only does a suit tailor or borrower lose that potential income, the shop owner has to settle for the worse situation of using money to replace something broken.

This idea of the highest valued thing that is given up by a particular action is what economists call opportunity cost.

And while the job made for the glassmaker is seen, the opportunity cost of a suit never purchased goes unseen. (This is why belief in the virtue of broken windows is tempting.)

This same principle occurs when sports teams are brought to town. It’s possible, in theory, that a new sports team could generate more spending and therefore income and jobs. But this doesn’t take into account all the opportunities taxpayers give up when they fund a new stadium, opportunities that would have been more productive than the stadium.

So not only does the evidence show no real positive impact from sports facilities and teams, there is a negative impact from the opportunity cost that taxpayers lose!

...

 

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

You failed to answer his question.  Do you know who is funding?  Is it county residents?  Donut county residents?  Tourism?  Combination?

Pretty easy to find other articles and economic studies that contradict your reference.  My guess is with the differing opinions, there is no consensus.

You do realize its much more than a stadium correct? Hotel space, office space, residential space, restaurants, etc.

That area is an old factory that sits on the river and I am guessing the cost includes environmental remediation.  That area of the city downtown needs investment.  Glad they are doing something.

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1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

You failed to answer his question.  Do you know who is funding?  Is it county residents?  Donut county residents?  Tourism?  Combination?

Pretty easy to find other articles and economic studies that contradict your reference.  My guess is with the differing opinions, there is no consensus.

You do realize its much more than a stadium correct? Hotel space, office space, residential space, restaurants, etc.

That area is an old factory that sits on the river and I am guessing the cost includes environmental remediation.  That area of the city downtown needs investment.  Glad they are doing something.

Doesn't matter.  If more than a nominal amount of taxpayer $ is used for say for basic, minimal roadwork for connecting the development/stadium/whatever to the existing roads system that is too much money.  A boondoggle that will never recoup what the public was forced to pay into for it. 

Educate yourself:

https://againstthecurrent.org/atc143/p2454/

https://www.sportico.com/business/finance/2021/how-taxpayers-sustain-indianapolis-stadium-1234626373/

https://www.wishtv.com/news/i-team-8/633m-still-owed-on-lucas-oil-stadium-pandemic-has-hurt-its-revenues/

Happy 10th Birthday to the Most-Subsidized NFL Stadium in America: https://www.mercatus.org/economic-insights/expert-commentary/happy-10th-birthday-most-subsidized-nfl-stadium-america

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2012/01/4800_indianapolis_to.html

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/facilities/stadium-arena/article/15146232/lucas-oil-stadium-repairs-will-cost-millions

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-02-02/super-bowl-lands-on-taxpayers-backs-as-stadium-deal-turns-sour

 

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I have lived in three, count them three, developing countries.  There is nothing wrong with strong infrastructure and helping pay for good roads, schools, and the other social things.  It's very hard to live in place that doesn't have good infrastructure and where the man doesn't take care of his place/people. They also use a true system of promotion and relegation because they PAY their players and recruit them.  I've also seen some of the top players in their home countries as they develop and move on.  Good football in Colombia and S. America.  Of course, the best move on to countries where the money flows.  

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44 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I have read a number of studies that contradict each other.  I notice you always show you bias by presenting one view.  

If you open your mind, you may learn even more....bias is a barrier

BTW, it does matter. Real estate (both residential and commercial) hotels, restaurants, etc investments in a complex. etc absolutely provide a return.  Cleaning up a dilapidated area within a downtown area, to include environmental remediation making an area useful does matter.  You have no idea regarding the long term revenue generation not associated with the stadium. 

I am not saying all sports-related investments lead to a positive return.  All I am saying this investment is much larger than the sports side of the complex and it would need some study.  Without diving into the return on such investment, words are only an opinion.

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1 minute ago, Bash Riprock said:

I have read a number of studies that contradict each other.  I notice you always show you bias by presenting one view.  

Because when it comes to government it is the logical and correct view. 

Government has no business building football stadiums, or upscale apartment complexes, or shopping areas, etc.   Period.

 

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2 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Indy resident. I live on the Southwest side. That area needs development. $1 billion seems really excessive, but I hope it works out. That area of town just west of Lucas Oil Stadium needs it.

Elanco is going to be developing the old GM Stamping Plant grounds for their new Corporate HQ. That would be directly across the river from this project. Elanco's CEO is dedicated to turning that area around. The Company I work for owns some industrial buildings near there off of Harding Street that we would love to flip to Co-Working office space if Elanco's presence changes the market in the area. For now they're being rented for industrial use. 

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12 hours ago, Grover said:

The city needs projects like this to prevent further drain on talent.  If it follow's Muda's plan it will become little more than a wasteland in no time flat.  I'm glad my tax dollars are being used for something positive for a change.

Great post. Growth is good. 

Soccer sucks, but growth is good. I'd love an MLB team, but maybe MLS is a more realistic option? 

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I’m just going to say it and I know it’s going to make some angry…and some of you already don’t like me

INDIANA IS NOT A FUN PLACE TO TRAVEL TO. Everyone knows it. Ffs I’ll never understand why Hoosiers stand in the way of making their own state/area more interesting/fun for everyone  

The smaller cities such as Evansville are struggling with violence and drug usage…the other destinations are either college towns like Bloomington/South Bend or places like French Lick which are slowly fading into being forgotten. 

And by reading some of these comments….it just seems like some would rather have nothing at all than to add just 1 thing that would make people want to stay in Indiana….and those same people are likely older and not even the intended audience for something like this. 

speaking anecdotally…a very large percentage of my classmates from high school and college have left the state for places like Tennessee and Florida.  The ones staying I’ve noticed are often tied to factories/mining/agriculture with next to none in Healthcare/entertainment/or just entrepreneurship in any capacity.  


some of you may have no interest in projects like this and will never go watch a soccer game…but your grandkids and great grandkids one day might.  You’re going to want your grandchildren to have all the opportunities life could offer…you’re going to want them to go to great school….you want them to fall in love with other bright creative minds who are driven to make a positive impact on this world….you want them to raise a healthy family in safe neighborhoods 

We all want these things, but if you don’t foster an environment that welcomes these things, the future generations are going be raised in hardships and struggles…and the kids who rise above those challenges are going to continue to leave to find success elsewhere 

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13 hours ago, Grover said:

The city needs projects like this to prevent further drain on talent.  If it follow's Muda's plan it will become little more than a wasteland in no time flat.  I'm glad my tax dollars are being used for something positive for a change.

Yes, I'm sure private investment has zero interest in this future wasteland. 

(that was sarcasm by the way)

 

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35 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

some of you may have no interest in projects like this and will never go watch a soccer game…but your grandkids and great grandkids one day might.  You’re going to want your grandchildren to have all the opportunities life could offer…you’re going to want them to go to great school….you want them to fall in love with other bright creative minds who are driven to make a positive impact on this world….you want them to raise a healthy family in safe neighborhoods 

We all want these things, but if you don’t foster an environment that welcomes these things, the future generations are going be raised in hardships and struggles…and the kids who rise above those challenges are going to continue to leave to find success elsewhere 

At what cost Dumfries?  This country's children and grandchildren are already on the hook for trillions upon trillions of federal debt foisted upon them by previous generations that chose not to look past their own self-enrichment.  How much more can they take?

 

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I will type slowly so maybe my point can be understood. 

Economic development= good.

Publicly financed sports stadiums = bad economic policy

I can see why apartments, retail/office space, and parking garages provide the perfect Trojan Horse to sneak in a bad idea like a stadium. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes, I'm sure private investment has zero interest in this future wasteland. 

(that was sarcasm by the way)

 

This soccer stadium project has been talked about for a few years. It has always been presented as "privately funded" no public dollars. Then, as always, when any project is near finalization the thruth comes out.  But at least we're still being taxed on the Hoosier (yes Hoosier) Dome.

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6 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I will type slowly so maybe my point can be understood. 

Economic development= good.

Publicly financed sports stadiums = bad economic policy

I can see why apartments, retail/office space, and parking garages provide the perfect Trojan Horse to sneak in a bad idea like a stadium. 

 

 

Indy has become a major convention city...but the city is short on hotel space.  We have an amazing football stadium, with few restaurants around it.  But we do have an old factory taking up primo space on the White River that could and should be used for something more beneficial than an eyesore.  You call it a Trojan Horse....I call it moving forward investing in a city that needs it.  

I chuckle when people living outside of the Indy metro area complain about local government involvment and higher taxes.  Doesn't cost you or Muda a darn thing.  Don't come here if you are worried about a few more cents added on to your meal.  My guess is that you don't come here much anyhow, so not sure why it matters one bit if the city is working to better itself.

 

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2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

At what cost Dumfries?  This country's children and grandchildren are already on the hook for trillions upon trillions of federal debt foisted upon them by previous generations that chose not to look past their own self-enrichment.  How much more can they take?

 

the cost right now is that the brightest, most innovative minds are leaving…the people left behind are uninspired people working for wages that barely get by at a job that is largely lackluster and doesn’t offer much upward mobility.  
 

these people are facing depression and poverty at incredibly high levels and often they turn to drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism….which in turn fuels a demand for said drugs that results in more organized/unorganized crime…and with that comes violence.  
 

and then you want people to believe that private investors want to invest in these areas that are filled with people working 12 hours a day and irresponsible with their finances.

 

the private investors looking at Indiana probably see opportunities in cheap manufacturing labor than anything else.  
 

Anecdotally again, we can look at my beloved Hs of Gibson Southern.  They grow up and see Toyota as the place to be….some of their parents make great money there don’t get me wrong….but it’s a factory job and is HARD.  They work long hours 6 days a week…many don’t even work at actual Toyota but subsidiary companies under Toyota.  If you don’t do that, the next best industry to work is mining which is one of the most incredibly difficult jobs in the world and comes at great risks to their health. 
 

and you know what those people do with their hard earned money if they are responsible with it? They go somewhere out of state to spend it….they don’t go to Indianapolis…many rather go to Florida or Tennessee…and then they fall in love with those places. They think about moving there because those places have more things that interest them and the job opportunities are often the same as what Indiana has to offer if not better.  

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4 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

the cost right now is that the brightest, most innovative minds are leaving…the people left behind are uninspired people working for wages that barely get by at a job that is largely lackluster and doesn’t offer much upward mobility.  
 

these people are facing depression and poverty at incredibly high levels and often they turn to drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism….which in turn fuels a demand for said drugs that results in more organized/unorganized crime…and with that comes violence.  
 

and then you want people to believe that private investors want to invest in these areas that are filled with people working 12 hours a day and irresponsible with their finances.

 

the private investors looking at Indiana probably see opportunities in cheap manufacturing labor than anything else.  
 

Anecdotally again, we can look at my beloved Hs of Gibson Southern.  They grow up and see Toyota as the place to be….some of their parents make great money there don’t get me wrong….but it’s a factory job and is HARD.  They work long hours 6 days a week…many don’t even work at actual Toyota but subsidiary companies under Toyota.  If you don’t do that, the next best industry to work is mining which is one of the most incredibly difficult jobs in the world and comes at great risks to their health. 
 

and you know what those people do with their hard earned money if they are responsible with it? They go somewhere out of state to spend it….they don’t go to Indianapolis…many rather go to Florida or Tennessee…and then they fall in love with those places. They think about moving there because those places have more things that interest them and the job opportunities are often the same as what Indiana has to offer if not better.  

Hmm, you failed to address the debt issue. I'm sure that was intentional.

As for factory work, my father worked at the Kokomo Chrysler transmission plant for 34 years, and was damn proud of it.  It allowed him to provide a good standard of living for his family, and help put multiple children through college.  Did it carry health risks?  Sure it did.   But all those non-factory, "white collar" careers out there where you usually sit in a sedentary position for 8-12 hours a day carry there own different sort of health risks, do they not?

And my parents were responsible with their hard earned money, and decided to stay here.  Sure, they visited places like Florida and Tennessee but they chose to live in Indiana.   

Just because you chose to flee the state of Indiana, and be part of the problem and not the solution, doesn't make you a genius. 

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1 hour ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I’ll never understand why Hoosiers stand in the way of making their own state/area more interesting/fun for everyone.

For most, it's the principle. Taxpayers pay for the venue, the owners walk away with the profit. Every business owner would love that. "You build it, I take home the money." But.............if they don't build it in your city, they'll build it somewhere else leaving your town boring and stagnant. Personally, as a taxpayer, I'm all in. I don't want to feel like I have to travel to Chicago for for something to do, and I haven't in 15 years. 

Fort Wayne is a case in point. In 2007, they leveled a 15 year old baseball structure on Coliseum Blvd. in favor of a ballpark downtown in which 90% of our residents were against. The result? A minor league ballpark that has ranked #1 in the country at all minor league levels nearly every year since it's dedication in 2008. Massive downtown growth with approximately 2 billion in new infrastructure. A plethora of new restaurants including Ruth Chris Steakhouse. Coffee houses, shopping venues, several new apartment complexes, three new hotels, and a vibrant new family friendly scene on our natural rivers that run through downtown. 

Resident's in Fort Wayne don't feel like they have to go to Chicago, Indianapolis, or Cincinatti, for a downtown experience anymore. They just take the 15 minute drive to downtown, pay $1 an hour to park, and have a great time. More money is invested in our own town without having drive 2 or 3 hours only to invest it in someone else's. More and more out of towners are starting to consider Downtown Fort Wayne as a weekend destination. 

For those you who reside in the Indianapolis area, I say build it. I mean, they're going to build it anyway. Quit bitching, go enjoy it, and support the economy in the process. 

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43 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Hmm, you failed to address the debt issue. I'm sure that was intentional.

As for factory work, my father worked at the Kokomo Chrysler transmission plant for 34 years, and was damn proud of it.  It allowed him to provide a good standard of living for his family, and help put multiple children through college.  Did it carry health risks?  Sure it did.   But all those non-factory, "white collar" careers out there where you usually sit in a sedentary position for 8-12 hours a day carry there own different sort of health risks, do they not?

And my parents were responsible with their hard earned money, and decided to stay here.  Sure, they visited places like Florida and Tennessee but they chose to live in Indiana.   

Just because you chose to flee the state of Indiana, and be part of the problem and not the solution, doesn't make you a genius. 

I did flee the state.  I was born here in Green Bay, Wisconsin.  I attended school here until the 4th grade when opportunities for my parents arose and we moved to the state of Washington.  
 

when the recession hit my family lost their home and we were forced to move to Southern Indiana.  I was in the 7th and 8th grade and we were homeless.  My parents as well as my 3 brothers slept on the floor of family members houses…eventually my dad saved up enough money to buy a trailer home…but it had black mold in it so as a 8th grader I spent my hours after school fixing up a trailer with my dad to make it somewhat livable.  
 

at one point the only walls in this trailer home were bedsheets.  We didn’t even have plumbing hooked up in the shower/tub…so you know what I had to do? I had to take pots of water and go outside the trailer and fill them from the water spigot…then bring those pots inside and heat them up on a stove…once the water was heated, I had to pour them into a freaking blue tote that sat inside the tub…..I did this every day just to take a bath and be clean only to get on a bus and be called “Trailer trash” every single effin day

My parents had to work incredibly hard at lame factory jobs while I had to watch my brothers and be responsible for cleaning this dilapidated trailer and cooking meals for them.  
 

I spent 8 years of my life growing up in extreme poverty being put down by a community littered with alcoholism and drug addiction…the best career opportunities were working factory jobs and being a miner.

 

SO YOURE DAMN RIGHT I LEFT THE MOMENT I HAD A CHANCE AS AN ADULT. 
 

I don’t exactly mean to put part of my life story out there but you’re so disconnected from what is actually going on in your state as a bitter old man. This wasn’t that long ago…I’m not even 28 and these events of my life happened in 2007-2015…and if you think I was the only one, I had classmates at Gibson Southern who were living in a barn…my closest friends had to rent a studio apartment that was in a someone’s shop building…she was 16 years old and just wanted to be in a safe place  to work on her studies 

again…you’re damn right I left that place and I’m sick and tired of hearing from old men like you about issues that involve just a decent standard of living and things to do.  You have no idea how miserable that state is for so many people and you sit there on your high horse every day acting like we are all entitled brats and that people wouldn’t enjoy going to a nice soccer arena and enjoying life a little bit

 

if anything you’re the most entitled person around here…you probably don’t make more than 200k and you probably don’t pay Jack crap for taxes…and yet you lecture everyone on how to spend tax dollars as if you make up any sort of significant portion of the tax revenue. Shut up already and have some damn humanity….let people have something to look forward to like going to a sporting event at a nice stadium

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