Chatard vs Knox Semi-state

[tango]

9 minutes ago, jets said:

What is the secret sauce that the P/P's have over similar public counterparts?? You really don't know the answer? LOL...I can tell you it is NOT that you all have figured out you need to have a Youth program - that is happening in every good football program in the State. 

The answer is very plain and simple - the socioeconomic build-up of your student population. I have walked the halls of Memorial and I have walked the halls of SR - I can tell you they are NOT the same - not even CLOSE. Even though our enrollments might be close in #- I can tell you we are not pulling from the same population. 

And that right there folks is the biggest difference between your publics and P/P's. I believe Titan32 has coined the term "effective enrollment" 

It is NOT because you all figured out how to have a YOUTH program lol.....the arrogance 

I'm not so arrogant to ever presume or say we have anything figured out. In fact, I often have far more questions than answers.

I would be interested in knowing what had you in the hallowed halls of 1500 Lincoln Ave so as to be able to make a comparison between Memorial and Southridge? Our students wear uniforms (including ties for boys), so the populations will look much different. But aside from that, I will agree with you 100% that the expectations for success in all aspects of the high school experience at a p/p school are very high, and there is likely a significant amount of students in most public schools whose parents do not have that same expectation. 

I have great respect for Titan32, but his "effective enrollment" theory is flawed. 

First, the timing has always intrigued me. We never heard about "effective enrollment" when GS was beating Memorial 3 straight years in football Sectionals from 2012-2014. It was only when Memorial beat GS 3 straight years from 2016-2018 that the theory first came to light. 

Second, at one time the theory was that MD (500 students) had an effective enrollment similar to GS (700) students. Yet, Memorial (550 students) had an effective enrollment similar to Castle (1950 students). How can that possibly be when MD and Memorial are pretty much identical in nearly every measurable category? I suspect it might be because, with few exceptions, GS generally doesn't face MD in an IHSAA tournament, so it's a comparison that will never be "tested" on a playing field. If Memorial has an effective enrollment similar to Castle, shouldn't we have been able to better compete with an EC team last week (who has 700 less  kids than Castle)? We got boat-raced.

Why doesn't Chatard dominate in all sports? As I understand it, football is pretty much it for them. Why doesn't MD dominate in boys soccer like they do in wrestling? Why is our girls soccer program so good but our softball program struggles something fierce? Why don't the advantages translate for the p/p schools in those sports? 

 

[tango]

12 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

So funny you guys argue about this and no mentions that private schools can restrict enrollment keeping the bad seeds out that is their biggest advantage end of story.

Find me a p/p that "restricts" enrollment. I'll wait. 

[FastpacedO]

11 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

So funny you guys argue about this and no mentions that private schools can restrict enrollment keeping the bad seeds out that is their biggest advantage end of story.

Lets be full on honest here. Any enrollment restricting is just to not over crowd the school (they can't accept more than "x" amount of students if they don't have room for "x" amount of students).  P/P don't need to restrict their enrollment to keep bad seeds out in all honesty because the bad seeds parents aren't going to pay $16,950 to be booted out of the school. In many cases the price tag alone deters the bad seeds parents from sending them there. You are correct Public schools (where there isn't that price tag) will have to accept them.

[Tippy]

3 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

So funny you guys argue about this and no mentions that private schools can restrict enrollment keeping the bad seeds out that is their biggest advantage end of story.

When it comes to high school football, Chatard does things the right way.  They don't just win because they are a Catholic school.  SB St. Joseph, Mishawaka Marian, Hammond Noll, and Indy Ritter used to be good, but they don't win much anymore.  Did those school let in some bad seeds?  Public schools can win state 5 years in a row and nobody will say anything.  When LCC won state 4 years in a row, some people on here were going crazy.  This year they are after Chatard again.

[Muda69]

6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

But here's the problem with the city CYO argument ... it doesn't explain a school like LCC.  LCC has no CYO program.  It looks exactly like every other 1A - 3A youth program

1A-2A football is much, much different than 3A and up regarding the number of "OMG! Athletes!"  you need to have to make a deep playoff run.  

So are are you saying LCC would have a better chance at defeating Chatard this year than the Knox Redskins do?  

 

 

[Muda69]

8 minutes ago, tango said:

Find me a p/p that "restricts" enrollment. I'll wait. 

Don't pay the tuition and see if little Johnny is restricted from entering the building or not.

 

[BendNotBreak]

31 minutes ago, tango said:

I'm not so arrogant to ever presume or say we have anything figured out. In fact, I often have far more questions than answers.

I would be interested in knowing what had you in the hallowed halls of 1500 Lincoln Ave so as to be able to make a comparison between Memorial and Southridge? Our students wear uniforms (including ties for boys), so the populations will look much different. But aside from that, I will agree with you 100% that the expectations for success in all aspects of the high school experience at a p/p school are very high, and there is likely a significant amount of students in most public schools whose parents do not have that same expectation. 

I have great respect for Titan32, but his "effective enrollment" theory is flawed. 

First, the timing has always intrigued me. We never heard about "effective enrollment" when GS was beating Memorial 3 straight years in football Sectionals from 2012-2014. It was only when Memorial beat GS 3 straight years from 2016-2018 that the theory first came to light. 

Second, at one time the theory was that MD (500 students) had an effective enrollment similar to GS (700) students. Yet, Memorial (550 students) had an effective enrollment similar to Castle (1950 students). How can that possibly be when MD and Memorial are pretty much identical in nearly every measurable category? I suspect it might be because, with few exceptions, GS generally doesn't face MD in an IHSAA tournament, so it's a comparison that will never be "tested" on a playing field. If Memorial has an effective enrollment similar to Castle, shouldn't we have been able to better compete with an EC team last week (who has 700 less  kids than Castle)? We got boat-raced.

Why doesn't Chatard dominate in all sports? As I understand it, football is pretty much it for them. Why doesn't MD dominate in boys soccer like they do in wrestling? Why is our girls soccer program so good but our softball program struggles something fierce? Why don't the advantages translate for the p/p schools in those sports? 

 

It appears Lcc is alone in that regard.....

[Just a dad]

17 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Don't pay the tuition and see if little Johnny is restricted from entering the building or not.

 

You keep turning to the money argument. Are you saying that because little Johnny’s parents have wealth he will naturally be a better athlete or are you saying little Johnny will have access to better training? If little Johnny’s parents have that wealth, and Johnny has that access, then little Johnny also has a wealth of other options. Johnny could play year round basketball or baseball. He could play lacrosse or soccer. Maybe swimming. Or theater. 

I had a distant cousin (Tommy Nola) who coached high school football in PA at a mid size Catholic school (Serra Catholic). He was a .500 coach. He then took a job at a 1A inner city public school (Clairton).  After 4 straight state titles, a 66 game winning streak and a 136-22 record I asked him what he learned to become such a good coach. His answer. Have better athletes. It had nothing to do with money (Clairton is poor), access (those kids had basketball and football), or effective enrollment. 

I referenced Aliquippa earlier in this thread. They have none of the wealth and privilege that you seem to think separates football programs. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

36 minutes ago, tango said:

Find me a p/p that "restricts" enrollment. I'll wait. 

I coach with a guy that has a friend that coaches at Andrean. The coach said they will always have an enrollment that puts them right in the middle of 2A. Wouldn't this be considered "restricting" enrollment?

[Just a dad]

Just now, First_Backer_Inside said:

I coach with a guy that has a friend that coaches at Andrean. The coach said they will always have an enrollment that puts them right in the middle of 2A. Wouldn't this be considered "restricting" enrollment?

Not if that is all the room the school has. If they have additional room then yes. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

1 minute ago, Just a dad said:

Not if that is all the room the school has. If they have additional room then yes. 

Would be interesting to see if their enrollment numbers change whenever they get success factored to 3A

[BSUKingsmen]

33 minutes ago, Tippy said:

When it comes to high school football, Chatard does things the right way.  They don't just win because they are a Catholic school.  SB St. Joseph, Mishawaka Marian, Hammond Noll, and Indy Ritter used to be good, but they don't win much anymore.  Did those school let in some bad seeds?  Public schools can win state 5 years in a row and nobody will say anything.  When LCC won state 4 years in a row, some people on here were going crazy.  This year they are after Chatard again.

I can provide a little insight to the St Joe and Mish Marian question. In short, yes, they have let some bad seeds in due to vouchers and more has been swept under the rug at these 2 schools and tolerated than before vouchers came into play. There is now a fear of losing voucher money in these schools, so the discipline and standards they used to have have now been reduced. I know several legacy catholic school families that have pulled their kids from St Joe and Marian and are now sending them to Penn, New Prairie, and Edwardsburg, Michigan.

[Lysander]

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

One aspect specifically relating to Catholic schools that is often overlooked is multiple K-8 feeders feeding one HS. Looking specifically at smaller classes, but the fact that one HS might have 3-4 QB’s getting quality reps in MS, 6-8 RB’s, 15-20 OL, etc. While their public school counterparts have only one feeder school so competition starts in the 7th grade. Again looking specifically at boys how many public school kids lose interest because their classmates who matured sooner dominated all those positions in MS and walked away. Then the late bloomers are beasts when they’re upperclassmen but they’ve moved on to other things. 

“Thank You” (I’m out of emojis).

CYO teams are tiny in numbers on the team compared to their public counterparts but are many in the number of teams.

The result of that is:

1. Much more personalized coaching because of the generally greater ratio of coaches to players.

2. Much more playing time because of the smaller number of players….which, among other things, keeps kids engaged in the sport.  Keeping kids engaged in the game is critical in CYO…and in Catholic Freshman football.

3. A multitude of position players when they arrive in HS.  If there are 30 small CYO teams, then there are 60 QBs.  One of the most prolific QBs ever at Cathedral was the second QB from his CYO team when he arrived at Cathedral as a Freshman.

I don’t quarrel much with folks when they point out that there is ON THE WHOLE a different kid roaming the halls (with different parents as importantly) on P/Ps v. Publics that often have many who are there solely because they are directed to be but I will leave you all with a question.

If the difference is solely the type of kid (more driven/motivated, more athletic…either or both) then why aren’t the halls of Chatard (since this conversation is, momentarily, focused on Chatard) simply replete with Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, etc. State Championship hardware?  It has been, rightfully, noted here that a certain 3A team generally looks forward to wrestling matches v. Chatard.  Other teams look forward generally to hoops games, etc. v. Chatard.  Chatard Boys generally do ONE sport remarkably well….but are absolutely normal at best in most everything else.

As regards football….something else or in addition must be at play.

PS - I wrote this before reading @tango’s post which I think is very insightful.  “Thank you” (still out of emojis).

Edited November 16, 2023 by Lysander

[Muda69]

17 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

You keep turning to the money argument. Are you saying that because little Johnny’s parents have wealth he will naturally be a better athlete or are you saying little Johnny will have access to better training? If little Johnny’s parents have that wealth, and Johnny has that access, then little Johnny also has a wealth of other options. Johnny could play year round basketball or baseball. He could play lacrosse or soccer. Maybe swimming. Or theater. 

No, I'm saying if Johnny or his parents or a family member or some kind of financial assistance can't pay for all of Chatard's tuition cost then Johnny will be restricted from entering the building and receiving that valuable p/p education, let alone being a Trojan Football Star (tm).

I don't think this would happen at your typical government school, especially with open enrollment legislation in place.

 

 

[Muda69]

15 minutes ago, BSUKingsmen said:

I can provide a little insight to the St Joe and Mish Marian question. In short, yes, they have let some bad seeds in due to vouchers and more has been swept under the rug at these 2 schools and tolerated than before vouchers came into play. 

What?  "Bad seeds" at a p/p school?

[Muda69]

5 minutes ago, Lysander said:

If the difference is solely the type of kid (more driven/motivated, more athletic…either or both) then why aren’t the halls of Chatard (since this conversation is, momentarily, focused on Chatard) simply replete with Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, etc. State Championship hardware?  It has been, rightfully, noted here that a certain 3A team generally looks forward to wrestling matches v. Chatard.  Other teams look forward generally to hoops games, etc. v. Chatard.  Chatard Boys generally do ONE sport remarkably well….but are absolutely normal at best in most everything else.

 

You Dads need to get on the ball and start a CYO Basketball club thingie. 

 

[tango]

20 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Would be interesting to see if their enrollment numbers change whenever they get success factored to 3A

It would be a dream for us if our enrollment put our facilities at capacity (850-900). We have a lot of room to spare.  

[Impartial_Observer]

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You Dads need to get on the ball and start a CYO Basketball club thingie. 

 

Cathedral steals them all. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

1 minute ago, tango said:

It would be a dream for us if our enrollment put our facilities at capacity (850-900). We have a lot of room to spare.  

Would make sense to me. Especially with as much success as your having in 4A. Might be there a while. Why not have the enrollment be as close to it as you can get it.

[Lysander]

18 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Would be interesting to see if their enrollment numbers change whenever they get success factored to 3A

So you really think the administrators and parents who often struggle financially to keep the doors open (the LCC story is a remarkable one in that regard) are going to leave empty seats in the school because of a ridiculous IHSAA Class designation?  

Catholic schools can’t make it without parents lending a literal “physical” hand let alone leave seats empty.  You really can’t imagine how little Bill Sahm, President at Chatard, could care about what Class the football team is in.

If we can’t get past simply wrong (verging on ridiculous) assertions like this then there’s no hope for ever having any meaningful conversation.

[tango]

5 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Would make sense to me. Especially with as much success as your having in 4A. Might be there a while. Why not have the enrollment be as close to it as you can get it.

There just isn't 300 kids beating down the door to get in. In fact, until this year, our enrollment was dropping annually, despite having a 7-8 year period of fairly good athletic success (football, boys & girls soccer titles). Our enrollment is dictated largely by that of our feeder schools. They are starting to go up, so our enrollment will go up. But it will never get to 850 or 900 (but not by choice). The highest ever was 2011 at 815. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by tango

[tango]

6 minutes ago, Lysander said:

So you really think the administrators and parents who often struggle financially to keep the doors open (the LCC story is a remarkable one in that regard) are going to leave empty seats in the school because of a ridiculous IHSAA Class designation?  

Catholic schools can’t make it without parents lending a literal “physical” hand let alone leave seats empty.  You really can’t imagine how little Bill Sahm, President at Chatard, could care about what Class the football team is in.

If we can’t get past simply wrong (verging on ridiculous) assertions like this then there’s no hope for ever having any meaningful conversation.

BINGO. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

1 minute ago, tango said:

There just isn't 300 kids beating down the door to get in. In fact, until this year, our enrollment was dropping annually, despite having a 7-8 year period of fairly good athletic success (football, boys & girls soccer titles). Our enrollment is dictated largely by that our of feeder schools. Theya re starting to go up, so our enrollment will go up. But it will never get to 850 or 900. The highest ever was 2011 at 815. 

I understand now.

 

[First_Backer_Inside]

15 minutes ago, Lysander said:

So you really think the administrators and parents who often struggle financially to keep the doors open (the LCC story is a remarkable one in that regard) are going to leave empty seats in the school because of a ridiculous IHSAA Class designation?  

Catholic schools can’t make it without parents lending a literal “physical” hand let alone leave seats empty.  You really can’t imagine how little Bill Sahm, President at Chatard, could care about what Class the football team is in.

If we can’t get past simply wrong (verging on ridiculous) assertions like this then there’s no hope for ever having any meaningful conversation.

I mentioned one Catholic school, said nothing about LCC or Chatard

[foxbat]

41 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

I coach with a guy that has a friend that coaches at Andrean. The coach said they will always have an enrollment that puts them right in the middle of 2A. Wouldn't this be considered "restricting" enrollment?

Not particularly.  If you've always had an enrollment over the last 20 years that's kept you squarely in the middle of a class based on demand, then a statement like that might just be acknowledging facts.  I've been in Indiana for over 20 years and every year I hear the Catholic school system do their annual enrollment spiel from the pulpits urging the choir to send their kids to the Catholic schools, but LCC was 1A when I got here and, at least by enrollment, is still 1A ... by a bunch.  378 is the top of 1A and LCC's a pinch under 300.  If it was really about restricting enrollment to stay in a class, LCC's still easily got 50+ kids as slack to play with.  Heck, given that, with SF they are in 2A with enough points to stay in 2A next cycle, restriction to stay in 1A's off the table and LCC could get all the way up to 500 and stay in 2A by enrollment.  I'd be surprised, even with vouchers, to see LCC get close to 500.