Potential 6A Sectional shakeups coming?

[temptation]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's just a matter of time before the HCC comes through. Still the top conference from top to bottom. If the HCC wanted to, they could make a claim that they had the best team in the state last season. They just didn't finish the job. 

I had Westfield in the next eight, I'm not sure which list you're referring to? 

Even though I know you are right, I’ve been repeating your first line for the last 5-6 years.  They are still on the door step and weren’t even on the right side of the property line a decade ago.  The HCC has actually won a majority of regular season head to head games against the MIC over the past 2-3 years but has choked when it matters.

I was not being critical of your list rather replying to the fact that the previous poster claimed HSE, Fishers or Westfield would have given BD a better fight.

I thought so all season last fall and Crown Point simply showed up when it mattered.

Edited Wednesday at 09:31 PM by temptation

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Even though I know you are right, I’ve been repeating your first line for the last 5-6 years.  They are still on the door step and weren’t even on the right side of the property line a decade ago.  The HCC has actually won a majority of regular season head to head games against the MIC over the past 2-3 years but has choked when it matters.

I was not doing critical of your list rather replying to the fact that the previous poster claimed HSE, Fishers or Westfield would have given BD a better fight.

I thought so all season last fall and Crown Point simply showed up when it mattered.

Agree, like how Carroll showed up the season before. More on that game if you want to PM me. I just don't think it would have mattered who Ben Davis played from the north. Talent, plus turf, plus perfect weather environment = unstoppable machine. Do you think Westfield was on par with Brownsburg and Center Grove? They just had an off night? Trust me, I understand off nights. They exist. The best team doesn't always win. 

[temptation]

15 minutes ago, BTF said:

Agree, like how Carroll showed up the season before. More on that game if you want to PM me. I just don't think it would have mattered who Ben Davis played from the north. Talent, plus turf, plus perfect weather environment = unstoppable machine. Do you think Westfield was on par with Brownsburg and Center Grove? They just had an off night? Trust me, I understand off nights. They exist. The best team doesn't always win. 

I mean, it’s easy to cherry pick data points to fit a narrative, but I remember how shocked I was the night that the much hyped clash between Brownsburg and Westfield (on Westfield’s turf I mind you) was over in the first half.

So, looking back no.  I don’t think Westfield was on the level of BD, Brownsburg or CG.  But I still thought they were a tier above Crown Point.

Edited Wednesday at 09:55 PM by temptation

[BTF]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

I mean, it’s easy to cherry pick data points to fit a narrative, but I remember how shocked I was the night that the much hyped clash between Brownsburg and Westfield (on Westfield’s turf I mind you) was over in the first half.

So, looking back no.  I don’t think Westfield was on the level of BD, Brownsburg or CG.  But I still thought they were a tier above Crown Point.

It happens. I felt the same way about Snider/Valpo in 2022. I'm sure HSE fans felt that way against Carroll last season. I felt that way when Dwenger lost to Zionsville a few years back. Sometimes enough happens for the underdog to sneak out the win. Painful to watch when you think you have a championship caliber team and they don't get it done. What shocks me more than anything is that the HCC is on a two year losing streak to "true north."

[temptation]

54 minutes ago, BTF said:

It happens. I felt the same way about Snider/Valpo in 2022. I'm sure HSE fans felt that way against Carroll last season. I felt that way when Dwenger lost to Zionsville a few years back. Sometimes enough happens for the underdog to sneak out the win. Painful to watch when you think you have a championship caliber team and they don't get it done. What shocks me more than anything is that the HCC is on a two year losing streak to "true north."

Agree.

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, BTF said:

What shocks me more than anything is that the HCC is on a two year losing streak to "true north."

 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Agree.

Winter is coming. 🥶

[BTF]

18 minutes ago, Bobref said:

 

Winter is coming. 🥶

Lol, good one. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

14 hours ago, temptation said:

Yeah, I’m not sure you can include Westfield in that list since they lost to Crown Point though that result shocked me.

Then, you add in the fact that Westfield beat HSE and HSE beat Fishers…

Ive been overly brash about the HCC too many years in a row now.  Brownsburg broke me and now Westfield seems to be trending that way.

They’ve gotta win one soon, right?

Well lets be perfectly honest, since the inception of 6A, only 4 teams have won 6A state titles out of the possible 11 chances. The teams they played in those 11 games from the true North are Penn, Carroll and CP. that is 4 of the 11 games. Metro Indy has represented the North by either Carmel or Westfield. 

14 hours ago, BTF said:

Everyone keeps saying that, yet they've stalled at semi-state two years in a road. I'm not sure anyone out of the northern bracket would have come within 21pts last year. Ben Davis, firing on all cylinders in a perfect weather environment, was unstoppable. I think Ben Davis and Brownsburg were in a league of their own with Center Grove just on the outside looking in. Throw the next eight teams (no particular order), HSE, Fishers, Westfield, Crown Point, Snider, Chatard, Cathedral, and East Central into a blender. 

Out of those 4 games Penn, believe it or not, has been the closest to winning the actual game. Now that was a different era of Penn football. But, looking at the results since 6A has started the North has not performed well against Metro area teams.

Snider last year has been, I think the best team to come out of the North, that is including runner up CP last year. I think Snider would have performed better against Ben Davis than CP had. But, last years Snider Team may have been the best North team in 10 or so years. 

We don't stack up with them, because they see the ringer week in and week out regardless of recent success against the HCC. Until the 6A North actually changes how they schedule, we will continue to come up short against them. Even then, History has not been in our favor since 2000. (that was the last North title with all the best teams in the same class)

[BLACKGOLD2007]

14 hours ago, temptation said:

I mean, it’s easy to cherry pick data points to fit a narrative, but I remember how shocked I was the night that the much hyped clash between Brownsburg and Westfield (on Westfield’s turf I mind you) was over in the first half.

So, looking back no.  I don’t think Westfield was on the level of BD, Brownsburg or CG.  But I still thought they were a tier above Crown Point.

This may be true, but do you think Westfield would have put up a better game than CP did in total?

[BLACKGOLD2007]

14 hours ago, BTF said:

Agree, like how Carroll showed up the season before. More on that game if you want to PM me. I just don't think it would have mattered who Ben Davis played from the north. Talent, plus turf, plus perfect weather environment = unstoppable machine. Do you think Westfield was on par with Brownsburg and Center Grove? They just had an off night? Trust me, I understand off nights. They exist. The best team doesn't always win. 

cough Penn v Valpo 2002. I was under the upright, that ball went left and the stupid ref (Sorry @Bobref) called it good. Penn was the best team in the state that year, and they played an awful game and got hosed in the end. 

[Bobref]

3 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

cough Penn v Valpo 2002. I was under the upright, that ball went left and the stupid ref (Sorry @Bobref) called it good. Penn was the best team in the state that year, and they played an awful game and got hosed in the end. 

What were you doing under the upright?

[temptation]

18 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Well lets be perfectly honest, since the inception of 6A, only 4 teams have won 6A state titles out of the possible 11 chances. The teams they played in those 11 games from the true North are Penn, Carroll and CP. that is 4 of the 11 games. Metro Indy has represented the North by either Carmel or Westfield. 

Out of those 4 games Penn, believe it or not, has been the closest to winning the actual game. Now that was a different era of Penn football. But, looking at the results since 6A has started the North has not performed well against Metro area teams.

Snider last year has been, I think the best team to come out of the North, that is including runner up CP last year. I think Snider would have performed better against Ben Davis than CP had. But, last years Snider Team may have been the best North team in 10 or so years. 

We don't stack up with them, because they see the ringer week in and week out regardless of recent success against the HCC. Until the 6A North actually changes how they schedule, we will continue to come up short against them. Even then, History has not been in our favor since 2000. (that was the last North title with all the best teams in the same class)

I think that the schedule strength argument is part of the equation but not the end all be all.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

13 minutes ago, Bobref said:

What were you doing under the upright?

The school allowed fans on the field area....Fans started pouring in as the game wound down, so me and a couple friends ran out there. 

It was wild. The kick goes up and by, the Penn fans go nuts because it went left, then he walks out and calls it good, and then Valpo fans go crazy because they were just given the biggest win of the year. 

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

I think that the schedule strength argument is part of the equation but not the end all be all.

correct, coaching and talent always helps. 

Penn was able to overcome some talent issues in the 90's and early 00s with Hall of Fame coaching from top to bottom. 

Edited yesterday at 12:36 PM by BLACKGOLD2007

[temptation]

2 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

The school allowed fans on the field area....Fans started pouring in as the game wound down, so me and a couple friends ran out there. 

It was wild. The kick goes up and by, the Penn fans go nuts because it went left, then he walks out and calls it good, and then Valpo fans go crazy because they were just given the biggest win of the year. 

correct, coaching and talent always helps. 

Penn was able to overcome some talent issues in the 90's and early 00s with Hall of Fame coaching from top to bottom. 

Coaching, talent, socioeconomics, youth league development, other job responsibilities for the coaching staff, facilities, etc...

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Coaching, talent, socioeconomics, youth league development, other job responsibilities for the coaching staff, facilities, etc...

Oh boy, a feel a firestorm brewing.... you mentioned one of those buzzwords that lands in a heated debate...Thoughts and prayers. 

[BTF]

56 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

 Out of those 4 games Penn, believe it or not, has been the closest to winning the actual game. Now that was a different era of Penn football. 

Snider last year has been, I think the best team to come out of the North, that is including runner up CP last year. I think Snider would have performed better against Ben Davis than CP had. But, last years Snider Team may have been the best North team in 10 or so years. 

Until the 6A North actually changes how they schedule, we will continue to come up short against them. 

If memory serves me correctly, the difference between Penn and Center Grove that year was minimal even though the outcome was double digits. Penn wasn't exactly dead during the Yoeman era, they were just hit or miss............and never good enough to win the whole thing. But let's be honest, they were in good company in that regard. 

Snider's offense was probably average, maybe a little better than average, by Snider standard. But the defense, one of their best ever, was good enough to keep them competitive in any game in my opinion. 

I like the direction the north is headed in. The two year winning streak over suburban Indy speaks volumes. The addition of Craig Buzea I think is a game changer for the north. I think Penn should be excited about the new hire. His resume appears pretty solid. I think Dinan is committed to keeping Carroll up there as a contender in 6A. He has the resources to do it. Homestead had a downturn in talent the last couple of years. When they uptick, with the combination of beefing up their schedule, they'll be back in the conversation at some point. Elkhart has the student body and a new coach. I'm a "glass half full" regarding the north at this point. 

Edited yesterday at 01:11 PM by BTF

[BTF]

26 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Oh boy, a feel a firestorm brewing.... you mentioned one of those buzzwords that lands in a heated debate...Thoughts and prayers. 

He's right though, regardless of what anyone thinks. I would argue that it's fact, not opinion. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

6 minutes ago, BTF said:

He's right though, regardless of what anyone thinks. I would argue that it's fact, not opinion. 

I know, I just find it comical how people will go after him all the time. 

[BTF]

Just now, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I know, I just find it comical how people will go after him all the time. 

He's fine with it. If he was an attorney, I'd probably hire him. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

If memory serves me correctly, the difference between Penn and Center Grove that year was minimal even though the outcome was double digits. Penn wasn't exactly dead during the Yoeman era, they were just hit or miss............and never good enough to win the whole thing. But let's be honest, they were in good company in that regard. 

Snider's offense was probably average, maybe a little better than average, by Snider standard. But the defense, one of their best ever, was good enough to keep them competitive in any game in my opinion. 

I like the direction the north is headed in. The two year winning streak over suburban Indy speaks volumes. The addition of Craig Buzea I think is a game changer for the north. I think Penn should be excited about the new hire. His resume appears pretty solid. I think Dinan is committed to keeping Carroll up there as a contender in 6A. He has the resources to do it. Homestead had a downturn in talent the last couple of years. When they uptick, with the combination of beefing up their schedule, they'll be back in the conversation at some point. Elkhart has the student body and a new coach. I'm a "glass half full" regarding the north at this point. 

I agree there are reasons to be excited about the progression of the best teams in 6A North, but right now I am putting money down on the House. Betting odds are in their favor, it is up to the other schools to go and take it. It is like the BIG10 and the SEC. It took a generational team in Michigan to finally beat Bama and a hot team in OSU to win in 2014. 

Sometimes lightening in a bottle can win you a title, sometimes you finally have to horses to do it, but no one has sustained success like the SEC... I mean Metro Indy.  

[BTF]

14 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I agree there are reasons to be excited about the progression of the best teams in 6A North, but right now I am putting money down on the House. Betting odds are in their favor, it is up to the other schools to go and take it. It is like the BIG10 and the SEC. It took a generational team in Michigan to finally beat Bama and a hot team in OSU to win in 2014. 

Sometimes lightening in a bottle can win you a title, sometimes you finally have to horses to do it, but no one has sustained success like the SEC... I mean Metro Indy.  

I'm 50/50. I betting Crown Point is more than just a one year wonder. Carroll has a D1 quarterback, and Snider's defense has the potential to be as good as they were last year led by two D1 defensive backs. Weeks 1 & 2 will be interesting. Fort Wayne takes on Indy. Crown Point takes on Arizona Prep. We'll see real quick what the north is made of. 

[temptation]

2 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Oh boy, a feel a firestorm brewing.... you mentioned one of those buzzwords that lands in a heated debate...Thoughts and prayers. 

That "buzzword" seems to trigger many folks as if it is demeaning of programs and coaches that do not have to "worry" about such a thing but its real and shouldn't be marginalized or overlooked.

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I agree there are reasons to be excited about the progression of the best teams in 6A North, but right now I am putting money down on the House. Betting odds are in their favor, it is up to the other schools to go and take it. It is like the BIG10 and the SEC. It took a generational team in Michigan to finally beat Bama and a hot team in OSU to win in 2014. 

Sometimes lightening in a bottle can win you a title, sometimes you finally have to horses to do it, but no one has sustained success like the SEC... I mean Metro Indy.  

You sure it wasn't the "sign stealing", lol?

(Sorry, I had to.)

[PDB26]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

I think that the schedule strength argument is part of the equation but not the end all be all.

Strength of schedule in any single season is less important than it is when repeated year over year, but, to your point, there are many important factors that bear on any program's success. SoS really only comes in once everything else is in place. 

3 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Penn was the best team in the state that year, and they played an awful game and got hosed in the end. 

We had several drives die inside of Valpo's 5. Some might say Gees called that game too tight more than we played awful. There was some procedural controversy around Valpo's go-ahead field goal, but we still got the ball back with enough time for a legitimate chance to win.

We were really good that year, and 2002 was a huge lost opportunity for Penn. To bring it back to SoS for a second, Sagarin from '02 is pretty interesting. Penn's SoS was 23rd with 5 top 25 games on the schedule. Warren Central (1) and Penn (2) both went out in the Regional.

Also, Ben Davis beat WC and CG in consecutive rounds after losing to both in the regular season. If––not to overlook a semi-state matchup with Snider––Penn had made it to state, then Ben Davis's last three tournament games would have been against the three teams they lost to in the regular season.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

2 hours ago, PDB26 said:

We had several drives die inside of Valpo's 5. Some might say Gees called that game too tight more than we played awful. There was some procedural controversy around Valpo's go-ahead field goal, but we still got the ball back with enough time for a legitimate chance to win.

We were really good that year, and 2002 was a huge lost opportunity for Penn. To bring it back to SoS for a second, Sagarin from '02 is pretty interesting. Penn's SoS was 23rd with 5 top 25 games on the schedule. Warren Central (1) and Penn (2) both went out in the Regional.

Also, Ben Davis beat WC and CG in consecutive rounds after losing to both in the regular season. If––not to overlook a semi-state matchup with Snider––Penn had made it to state, then Ben Davis's last three tournament games would have been against the three teams they lost to in the regular season.

If my memory serves me correctly we played two tight games in a row against Valpo in regionals back to back years that saw us go down. Gees had the ball on the 1 with 4 downs to punch it in and we ran Tony West our speed back rather than Bruce Ore who was our big back that may have been able to use his size to push the pile. Give the credit to Valpo they didn't break on those four plays. But, dang that was a let down as well. 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, PDB26 said:

We were really good that year, and 2002 was a huge lost opportunity for Penn. 

If––not to overlook a semi-state matchup with Snider––Penn had made it to state, then Ben Davis's last three tournament games would have been against the three teams they lost to in the regular season.

Penn was good that year. Missed opportunities are a tough pill to swallow. Homestead was also very good that year. Both teams would like a do over I'm sure.