Why don't we go to 32 teams in all classes and play a 10th regular season game?

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I'll give it "semi-accurate," right up there with Sagarin. Great polls for sure, but they have their flaws. Westfield and HSE over Crown Point? Snider at #12? I'll pass. 

i still take westfield to win that game 3/4 times

 

 

i am pro seeding but also pro all in

 

i wanna see some blowouts

 

 

[BTF]

9 hours ago, Rodney said:

i still take westfield to win that game 3/4 times

Why do you feel they lost that one game? There's flaws all over the place with these polls. Indy Lutheran isn't beating Carroll, sorry. They aren't beating Merrillville or Valpo either. No way no how. 

Side note: I do appreciate the polls and what they have to offer, we just have to acknowledge them for what they are. They're computers that process numbers. They've never seen a game. 

[Plymouthfan91]

10 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Why didn’t the Chiefs and the 49ers play the first round of the playoffs? Why don’t we have UConn and Purdue play the first round of the NCAA Tournament this year?

Because in doing so, you have to readily admit that the regular doesn’t matter. No other sport at any level of competition outside the postseason tournaments the IHSAA puts on, treat the regular season in that light. 

But the regular season isn't even.  The ability to play anyone in the state when you want to isn't possible.  Teams are stuck playing the teams around them so whatever way you use to seed won't be fair.  In the NFL the schedule is chosen by the league but non-conference play in college football/basketball can be chosen by the schools involved.  They can travel and play who ever they want.  They can increase their Net or KenPom or whatever rating the selection committee is using.  High Schools can't do that.

I would argue the regular season is a way to get your team ready for the post-season.  You spend the nine weeks getting your team ready, getting a two deep roster and putting out film that will get your kids into college.  An all-in only hurts those schools who have to play a must win in week one and lose.  They complain they had to play a good team early whne they had the regular season to get their team ready for that game.  Sounds like the people who complain about everyone getting a trophy are worried that they won't get trophies if they have to play a hard game first...

[btownqbcoach1]

16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You're confusing sentimental feeling with real tangible meaning. Everyone loves to beat a rival, never disagreed with that, but your record and subsequent play during the first 9 weeks has ZERO real tangible meaning. 0-9 or 9-0 It.Literally.Doesn't.Matter. You're in the playoffs no matter what and your draw is defined by nothing more than a ping pong ball. You will NEVER be able to refute this under the current format no matter how hard you puff your chest.

And with your second paragraph you've literally just described a glorified 2.5 month long exhibition season. 

 

As you should be. In HS sports, everyone should make the post-season, I can't imagine thinking otherwise. 

Your perspective sounds like that of a fan. Nothing wrong with that, but I have never heard of a coach calling any regular season and exhibition. I've also never really heard of any energy in coaching circles to get the "all-in" approach changed. 

We'd like seeding-- but I don't think any of us really want teams excluded. 

Edited February 21 by btownqbcoach1

[btownqbcoach1]

8 minutes ago, Plymouthfan91 said:

But the regular season isn't even.  The ability to play anyone in the state when you want to isn't possible.  Teams are stuck playing the teams around them so whatever way you use to seed won't be fair.  In the NFL the schedule is chosen by the league but non-conference play in college football/basketball can be chosen by the schools involved.  They can travel and play who ever they want.  They can increase their Net or KenPom or whatever rating the selection committee is using.  High Schools can't do that.

I would argue the regular season is a way to get your team ready for the post-season.  You spend the nine weeks getting your team ready, getting a two deep roster and putting out film that will get your kids into college.  An all-in only hurts those schools who have to play a must win in week one and lose.  They complain they had to play a good team early whne they had the regular season to get their team ready for that game.  Sounds like the people who complain about everyone getting a trophy are worried that they won't get trophies if they have to play a hard game first...

That's exactly what it sounds like 

[Footballking16]

50 minutes ago, Plymouthfan91 said:

But the regular season isn't even.  The ability to play anyone in the state when you want to isn't possible.  Teams are stuck playing the teams around them so whatever way you use to seed won't be fair.  In the NFL the schedule is chosen by the league but non-conference play in college football/basketball can be chosen by the schools involved.  They can travel and play who ever they want.  They can increase their Net or KenPom or whatever rating the selection committee is using.  High Schools can't do that.

What do you mean they can't seed? Are you telling me that conference basketball schedules are equal? There's 350 some teams and they're able to form a 68 team, end of the year tournament developing a rating system based on numerous factors. Every single other state in the country not named Indiana has some kind of rating or point system that ranks teams accordingly and used for seeding/inclusion for a qualifier. Indiana absolutely CAN do that, they simply choose not too. It's not rocket science if 49 other states have figured it out. 

[Footballking16]

48 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

Your perspective sounds like that of a fan. Nothing wrong with that, but I have never heard of a coach calling any regular season and exhibition. I've also never really heard of any energy in coaching circles to get the "all-in" approach changed.

All coaches adjust. Just like they did from the old cluster system. Just like they did for the success factor. Coaches will adjust once seeding is implemented down the road and then to ultimately a qualifier as that is inevitably the next step after seeding. The all-in cannot exist without the blind draw. 

[Muda69]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Indiana absolutely CAN do that, they simply choose not too. It's not rocket science if 49 other states have figured it out. 

But those other 49 state's athletic associations obviously don't care as much about the kids as the IHSAA does.  Right?

[btownqbcoach1]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

All coaches adjust. Just like they did from the old cluster system. Just like they did for the success factor. Coaches will adjust once seeding is implemented down the road and then to ultimately a qualifier as that is inevitably the next step after seeding. The all-in cannot exist without the blind draw. 

lol 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

But those other 49 state's athletic associations obviously don't care as much about the kids as the IHSAA does.  Right?

Pretty telling that the IHSAA has continuously decided to completely devalue a 9 week regular season for as long as they have. Glorified scrimmages.  

[JQWL]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Pretty telling that the IHSAA has continuously decided to completely devalue a 9 week regular season for as long as they have. Glorified scrimmages.  

2 questions:

Cathedral is independent, correct? Would you feel different about a devalued regular season if they were in a conference?

Do you feel like the current system is holding Cathedral back from post-season success?

[MacAttack53]

Keep 9 games.

Take the top 32 teams in all classes, split it N/S and seed them. The rest get put into regional pods and based on their record/Sagarin/whatever get a 10th game against an evenly matched opponent. That becomes their "bowl game." 

You want to talk about equity for the athletes--a system like this gives probably twice as many young men a chance to end their career with a win as opposed to losing by six scores in the opening round of the Sectional.

Edited February 21 by MacAttack53

[Footballking16]

20 minutes ago, JQWL said:

2 questions:

Cathedral is independent, correct? Would you feel different about a devalued regular season if they were in a conference?

Do you feel like the current system is holding Cathedral back from post-season success?

1. Yes they are independent. If Cathedral was in a conference, consistently won it, yet still received a tougher postseason draw than the teams who finished in the bottom half....yes I would feel that a  conference title devalues significantly. Winning your conference should be a reward, not a crutch come postseason. You'll never change my mind on that. 

2. Not at all. Prior to the success factor, Cathedral took full advantage of the archaic postseason format but consistently scheduling up and playing top end out of state competition. And why wouldn't they? Win, lose, or draw it doesn't impact your postseason chances or path. Cathedral won many state titles ending the regular season with 4 or 5 losses. In fact they won three straight state titles after finishing the regular season 4-5. Cathedral has since scaled back some of their regular season scheduling now that they play two classes up, but why wouldn't you play the best available competition under the current format?

Edited February 21 by Footballking16

[Muda69]

8 minutes ago, MacAttack53 said:

Keep 9 games.

Take the top 32 teams in all classes, split it N/S and seed them. The rest get put into regional pods and based on their record/Sagarin/whatever get a 10th game against an evenly matched opponent. That becomes their "bowl game." 

You want to talk about equity for the athletes--a system like this gives probably twice as many young men a chance to end their career with a win as opposed to losing by six scores in the opening round of the Sectional.

But it's not about wins and losses, but that you got to play the game.  Right?

Go Braves. That Josiah Ball is a heckuva shooter.

 

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

All coaches adjust. Just like they did from the old cluster system. Just like they did for the success factor. Coaches will adjust once seeding is implemented down the road and then to ultimately a qualifier as that is inevitably the next step after seeding. The all-in cannot exist without the blind draw. 

I've heard this said before as if it's fact, but I'm not seeing the logic behind it.  To be realistic, when we watch March Madness, very few folks expect that #16 seed to get to the Sweet 16 or, in many cases, even beyond the first round, yet everyone still watches and hopes and prays.  Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a #16 seed in the history of the tourney that has declined to play because the odds are against them.  Yes, the #16s still had to make a "cut," but outside of FDU and UMBC, #1 vs. #16 is 150-2.  In essence, they likely weathered the play as well as #70 that didn't make the Dance cutoff would have or possibly even #100 or possibly even #120. 

All in, with a seed basically does what others are saying, makes the regular season more important, but not live or die important, while still allowing for lots of chances for the Cinderella story to happen, even if the Prince picks Cinderella for a mosh pit song.  The 10th game basically becomes a first round elimination of, as some would call them, "posers" and then moves on to the things at hand.

Incidentally, answering the question "What's the difference between Monrovia's 2022 and 2020 2-7 regular seasons?" is the reason I'm an all-in fan.  Doesn't happen often, but it's enough to make me see it as having the 10th game of the season played as a tourney game.

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I've heard this said before as if it's fact, but I'm not seeing the logic behind it.  To be realistic, when we watch March Madness, very few folks expect that #16 seed to get to the Sweet 16 or, in many cases, even beyond the first round, yet everyone still watches and hopes and prays.  Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a #16 seed in the history of the tourney that has declined to play because the odds are against them.  Yes, the #16s still had to make a "cut," but outside of FDU and UMBC, #1 vs. #16 is 150-2.  In essence, they likely weathered the play as well as #70 that didn't make the Dance cutoff would have or possibly even #100 or possibly even #120. 

That 16 seed still QUALIFIED for the postseason. They effectively earned that right to get blown out by a #1 seed.

 

3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

All in, with a seed basically does what others are saying, makes the regular season more important, but not live or die important, while still allowing for lots of chances for the Cinderella story to happen, even if the Prince picks Cinderella for a mosh pit song.  The 10th game basically becomes a first round elimination of, as some would call them, "posers" and then moves on to the things at hand.

Incidentally, answering the question "What's the difference between Monrovia's 2022 and 2020 2-7 regular seasons?" is the reason I'm an all-in fan.  Doesn't happen often, but it's enough to make me see it as having the 10th game of the season played as a tourney game.

2022 Monrovia is a statistical outlier. A complete anomaly. The only team in the 10 years I've tracked the postseason using Sagarin to seed the postseason that has beaten three top 32 teams en route to a sectional championship. That's it. And if I recall, that was a loaded sectional with a bunch of top 32 teams with Monrovia being just outside the top half at the conclusion of the regular season (34th or 35th). But because of the all-in, blind draw, the top 2 teams in that sectional played the first round making their path that much easier from the jump. Had they been seeded 1-8, not sure how Monrovia fares.

But that's beyond the point. Cinderella is a myth when it comes to Indiana high school football, 2022 Monrovia be damned. If you seeded each sectional 1-8 or 1-4 in 5A/6A every year, it would put an end to this nonsense. True seeding would effectively start the qualifier domino. 

[Muda69]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

2022 Monrovia is a statistical outlier. A complete anomaly.

People live for this:

 

[foxbat]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That 16 seed still QUALIFIED for the postseason. They effectively earned that right to get blown out by a #1 seed.

 

2022 Monrovia is a statistical outlier. A complete anomaly. The only team in the 10 years I've tracked the postseason using Sagarin to seed the postseason that has beaten three top 32 teams en route to a sectional championship. That's it. And if I recall, that was a loaded sectional with a bunch of top 32 teams with Monrovia being just outside the top half at the conclusion of the regular season (34th or 35th). But because of the all-in, blind draw, the top 2 teams in that sectional played the first round making their path that much easier from the jump. Had they been seeded 1-8, not sure how Monrovia fares.

But that's beyond the point. Cinderella is a myth when it comes to Indiana high school football, 2022 Monrovia be damned. If you seeded each sectional 1-8 or 1-4 in 5A/6A every year, it would put an end to this nonsense. True seeding would effectively start the qualifier domino. 

That's conjecture.  You'd have an argument if Monrovia made it to the second round or even the sectional final and lost, but in essence, Monrovia did what everyone says you have to do to take that crown; they eventually played the best in that sectional and beat them.

As for seeding them, go ahead and seed them.  It's not costing Indiana anything extra as there is already that "10th game."  Whether it's guaranteed terminal or guaranteed "near terminal," it's still on the books.  You can certainly argue about whether the schools get a "take" of the 10th game, but that's relatively easy to work out.

Again, I've still not seen the reasoning that all-in only works with a random draw.  Perhaps it eventually leads to folks deciding to create a qualifier, but it's not fact that it only works with a random draw.  And maybe it does lead to a qualifier and maybe folks just say, "That's pretty much what we expect the first round to be and now it is pretty much guaranteed."  It just seems odd to me that there are statements of conjecture as fact and wanting to skip to the "foregone conclusion."  What does it hurt to seed first and see where it goes?

[MacAttack53]

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

But it's not about wins and losses, but that you got to play the game.  Right?

Go Braves. That Josiah Ball is a heckuva shooter.

 

Braves Basketball is back, baby. I was at a boys/girls DH against Lewis Cass a few weeks ago and the place was full. Seating has been reduced a bit with some renovations over the last few years, but there were close to 3k in attendance that night. Felt like being in there in the mid/late 90s as a kid again.

Josiah Ball may end up being the best player to come out of 256 E 800 S since Corey Burns in the late 90s. Probably has a higher upside than him, too.

[Muda69]

Just now, MacAttack53 said:

Braves Basketball is back, baby. I was at a boys/girls DH against Lewis Cass a few weeks ago and the place was full. Seating has been reduced a bit with some renovations over the last few years, but there were close to 3k in attendance that night. Felt like being in there in the mid/late 90s as a kid again.

Josiah Ball may end up being the best player to come out of 256 E 800 S since Corey Burns in the late 90s. Probably has a higher upside than him, too.

Yes, this Maconaquah alum is happy to see it.  I was there in the gym in 1998 when the Braves won their first (class) sectional after losing year after year to Kokomo in their sectional (attended quite a few of those heartbreaker games as well).

[JQWL]

Do those that believe a qualifier is or at least should be coming think that will apply to all IHSAA sports or just football?

[Punttheball]

21 minutes ago, MacAttack53 said:

Braves Basketball is back, baby. I was at a boys/girls DH against Lewis Cass a few weeks ago and the place was full. Seating has been reduced a bit with some renovations over the last few years, but there were close to 3k in attendance that night. Felt like being in there in the mid/late 90s as a kid again.

Josiah Ball may end up being the best player to come out of 256 E 800 S since Corey Burns in the late 90s. Probably has a higher upside than him, too.

Just going to throw Phil Garnett out with the trash?

[Footballking16]

10 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Do those that believe a qualifier is or at least should be coming think that will apply to all IHSAA sports or just football?

Sectionals at the bare minimum should be seeded 1-8. There's not the same preparation or turn around time in basketball, baseball, volleyball, etc like there is with football. But I'm in favor of the regular season actually meaning something in regards to the postseason. The all-in, blind draw regardless of the sport is a neanderthal format the completely devalues the regular season. It's not done anywhere else but in Indiana. 

25 minutes ago, foxbat said:

That's conjecture.  You'd have an argument if Monrovia made it to the second round or even the sectional final and lost, but in essence, Monrovia did what everyone says you have to do to take that crown; they eventually played the best in that sectional and beat them.

As for seeding them, go ahead and seed them.  It's not costing Indiana anything extra as there is already that "10th game."  Whether it's guaranteed terminal or guaranteed "near terminal," it's still on the books.  You can certainly argue about whether the schools get a "take" of the 10th game, but that's relatively easy to work out.

Again, I've still not seen the reasoning that all-in only works with a random draw.  Perhaps it eventually leads to folks deciding to create a qualifier, but it's not fact that it only works with a random draw.  And maybe it does lead to a qualifier and maybe folks just say, "That's pretty much what we expect the first round to be and now it is pretty much guaranteed."  It just seems odd to me that there are statements of conjecture as fact and wanting to skip to the "foregone conclusion."  What does it hurt to seed first and see where it goes?

Trust me I'm all for seeding 1-8 and that's because I know the next step. As do you, as does the IHSAA, as does everybody else. That's precisely why it hasn't been implemented yet....the IHSAA can't let go of the blind draw because it effectively ends the all-in. 

[JustRules]

40 minutes ago, foxbat said:

That's conjecture.  You'd have an argument if Monrovia made it to the second round or even the sectional final and lost, but in essence, Monrovia did what everyone says you have to do to take that crown; they eventually played the best in that sectional and beat them.

As for seeding them, go ahead and seed them.  It's not costing Indiana anything extra as there is already that "10th game."  Whether it's guaranteed terminal or guaranteed "near terminal," it's still on the books.  You can certainly argue about whether the schools get a "take" of the 10th game, but that's relatively easy to work out.

Again, I've still not seen the reasoning that all-in only works with a random draw.  Perhaps it eventually leads to folks deciding to create a qualifier, but it's not fact that it only works with a random draw.  And maybe it does lead to a qualifier and maybe folks just say, "That's pretty much what we expect the first round to be and now it is pretty much guaranteed."  It just seems odd to me that there are statements of conjecture as fact and wanting to skip to the "foregone conclusion."  What does it hurt to seed first and see where it goes?

I think the reason the all-in only works with a random draw is the teams at the bottom are very unlikely to be competitive in the first round. With a random draw they have the hope they'll draw another team at the bottom so they have a competitive game. That's what helps keep them motivated once they are out of conference title contention. The argument many make against a qualifier is once a team loses 3 or 4 early games they have nothing to play for. That's one of the key reasons I think there are some coaches opposed to seeding. They know they could always be that lower team praying for a lucky draw. 

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, JustRules said:

I think the reason the all-in only works with a random draw is the teams at the bottom are very unlikely to be competitive in the first round. With a random draw they have the hope they'll draw another team at the bottom so they have a competitive game.

That's literally the only reason why. The IHSAA can sit back and justify a 71-6 drubbing in a "postseason" game, citing the luck of the draw. They no longer can however if/when the sectionals are seeding appropriately. And be doing it the way they have been, they screw deserving teams in the process. It's a joke honestly.