Seeding coming to IHSAA football tournament? A proposal for Class 6A is in the works.

[BTF]

If anyone hasn't donated yet, please do. You can't tell me this stuff isn't worth the price of admission. 

[Rodney]

4 minutes ago, BTF said:

If anyone hasn't donated yet, please do. You can't tell me this stuff isn't worth the price of admission. 

If I wasn't lazy I'd have my own personal news site up and running so I can post links to articles and write whatever I want

 

But alas I get continually sidetracked

[BTF]

9 minutes ago, Rodney said:

If I wasn't lazy I'd have my own personal news site up and running so I can post links to articles and write whatever I want

 

But alas I get continually sidetracked

You might be surprised as to how well it would do. 

[Rodney]

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

You might be surprised as to how well it would do. 

Oh I'm making it

 

Just not quickly

 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Rodney said:

Libertarians stand for nothing, and despite all their yapping accomplish much of the same

 

There can be a difference between 'small l' libertarians and 'big L' Libertarians.  And I hear much more political rhetoric spewing from the pieholes of democrats and republicans.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Rodney said:

If I wasn't lazy I'd have my own personal news site up and running so I can post links to articles and write whatever I want

 

But alas I get continually sidetracked

Maybe try staying at one school for more than 3-4 years. If you are to be believed you have bounced around to probably half a dozen different jobs in all different corners of this state.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Muda69

[Rodney]

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

There can be a difference between 'small l' libertarians and 'big L' Libertarians.  And I hear much more political rhetoric spewing from the pieholes of democrats and republicans.

 

 

Maybe try staying at one school for more than 3-4 years. If you are to be believed you have bounced around to probably half a dozen different jobs in all different corners of this state.

 

 

Got me

 

But to be fair I only claimed to change jobs once

[BTF]

13 minutes ago, Rodney said:

But to be fair I only claimed to change jobs once

Valid.

[Rodney]

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Valid.

Not entirely certain how my preference in team on this website is any indication of my abilities to create my own totally not fake news site

[Muda69]

Mr. Neddenriep from the Indianapolis Star's take: https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/03/24/indiana-high-school-football-coaches-dont-get-wish-on-tournament-seeding-ifca-proposal-ihsaa/73085086007/

Quote

I wish Michael Kelly the best of luck.

The Indiana High School Athletic Association clearly has no interest in seeding the high school football tournament, a reality that hit me six years ago when proposal from the Indiana Football Coaches Association was shelved before it could even really get off the ground after some nudging from the IHSAA.

I gave up on the idea it would ever happen, going about with my life. Fine. The football season is great, could be made better with a little elbow grease, but hey, I’m not going to write about the potential for seeding the tournament every week when I know it’s not going to happen.

Then I heard there was potential again for seeding, this time coming from the Class 6A coaches. The idea, with 80% of the 6A coaches in support, was to seed the north and south from No. 1 through 16 by the Sagarin Ratings. A two-year pilot program was the idea, just to see how seeing the tournament might look. I got my hopes up.

 

Again, it never got off the ground. The IFCA was more than 70% in support of moving forward with a proposal, according to IFCA executive director Bob Gaddis, but there were concerns (including travel, seeding by Sagarin) in conversation with the IFCA membership, Indiana Interscholastic Athletic Administrators Association and IHSAA that led to an altered proposal. That proposal, which called for the seeding at the regional level with two eight-team quadrants in the north and two in the south with the top four teams seeded and the other four selected by a blind draw, fell flat (79% of the IIAAA board voted against).

“We felt we had a solid, professional, well thought out proposal and had a good discussion with their board,” Gaddis said. “We received good feedback from the IIAAA and IHSAA, but we did not receive the needed support to officially present to the IHSAA.”

I was not surprised. Even though 49 other states have some sort of seeding for its football tournament, we seem to be forever mired in Ping Pong Ball, USA.

“There’s a reason we’re the only state that does it this way,” said former Westfield coach Jake Gilbert, now the defensive coordinator/coach-in-waiting at Wabash College. “And it’s not because we’re smarter than everyone else.”

Gilbert was directly involved with the seeding proposal six years ago and again this time around. Life goes on. There are certainly worse problems. But I am hopeful Kelly, the Hamilton Southeastern coach, and some of his fellow coaches are fired up on this topic.

“It’s disappointing that the IIAAA and the IHSAA aren’t interested in working with the coaches in moving the tournament forward,” Kelly said. “To think we can’t make any adjustments in 40 years of the tournament is baffling, to say the least.”

One of the points raised by former IHSAA commissioner Bobby Cox and current IHSAA commissioner Paul Neidig on seeding: The blind draw gives teams with poor records a chance to play somebody they could possibly beat in the first round. Neidig recently used the example of Knightstown in 2022. That team was 1-8 in the regular season, won two games in the sectional and reached the sectional championship game.

I don’t argue that’s great for Knightstown and certainly a positive for teams that have no real chance of beating a No. 1 seed barring a massive upset. But as Gilbert points out, why does that team matter more than the team that is state-ranked and has to play another state-ranked team in the first round? Gilbert used the example of No. 3 Ben Davis and No. 1 Brownsburg playing in the first round of the 6A sectional last season (a game Ben Davis won with a furious fourth-quarter comeback on the way to a state championship). Kelly used the example of Peru, after a 9-0 regular season, drawing 7-2 Guerin Catholic in the first round of the 3A sectional.

“The gift to (the 1-8 team) is that they get in the tournament,” Gilbert said. “In a lot of other states, they don’t get in at all. Why are those kids more important than the kid on the Brownsburg team that has to play the one team better than them in the state in the first round?  How is that fair to them? What if the NFL ran its playoffs that way? When you say, ‘Well, the right team still made the state finals,’ I’m not disagreeing but that’s a slap in the face to the kids who had their season cut short because they had to play the No. 1 team because of a blind draw in the first round. When you are in it, extending the season one more week matters a ton. Why do we think it’s important in one example (the team with a losing record) and not another? You telling me, with the magic Brownsburg had this season, that they wouldn’t have loved another week together? Why does it matter for Knightstown’s kids and not theirs?”

That’s a long quote, but I wanted to use it all because I think Gilbert explains it better than I can, and he’s been invested in this world personally as a high school coach for a long time. I have always wondered, too, why the explanation for the blind draw caters to the 1-8 team and not the 8-1 team.

Gilbert and former Ben Davis coach Jason Simmons, now an assistant at Miami of Ohio, headed the proposal for seeding several years ago. That idea was to combine two four-team sectional groups into eight teams and seed the top two by Sagarin Ratings. The rest would be determined by blind draw. In Class 4A and below, the top two teams were to be seeded by Sagarin with the rest determined by blind draw. The IFCA wanted one pilot year for Class 6A and 2A in 2018 to collect data.

“We had 70% of coaches and administrators on board,” Gilbert said. “What killed it is it dragged on so long, coaches and administrators changed. It started to become about all these other factors, like neutral sites. We lost momentum. The simplicity of seeding on some level had enough support, it was ‘What tool to you use for seeding?’ and ‘Does the lower seed automatically host?’ and those details that people got caught up on. When it was simpler and more about common sense, we had more support.”

The current format, with every team making the tournament, has been in place since 1985. When the football tournament began in 1973, that was not the case. The playoff system continued to expand, then went to a cluster system in 1983 and ’84, which had some proponents but not nearly enough. When the playoffs started, teams were allowed entry through a points system (it expanded from 12 teams in three classes to 24 teams in 1975 to 48 teams in 1980). The IHSAA went to the cluster system in 1983 and ’84 and added a fourth class with 64 teams reaching the playoffs based on their record against their three cluster opponents.

Ron Lemasters, the longtime sports editor of the Muncie Star, wrote this in 1985, the first year of the all-in tournament:

“There is a strong sentiment for a seeding of the top teams in each of the five classes. In Class AAA Saturday night, No. 1 Roncalli plays No. 3 Cathedral in Indianapolis. It’s a meeting both schools would like to see somewhere farther down the tourney trail, and it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone will challenge such pairings in court.”

 

So yeah, even when “Back to the Future” was still raking in cash at the box office, there was talk about seeding. The time seemed right, almost 40 years later, to try something different, especially with more than 80% of 6A coaches in favor.

Kelly, who helped get the proposal off the ground for the IFCA, said he is disappointed “with the integrity of the process.” The IFCA had 70% of coaches in support of a further discussion on seeding the entire tournament and 70% in favor of a two-year pilot program for seeding Class 6A by February. But after the IFCA coaches clinic two weeks ago in Indianapolis, where coaches drove from all over the state to meet, the IFCA was told travel would be an issue under a 1 through 16 format for the north and south. The IFCA basically had a week to restructure its proposal before it went to the IIAAA and was dismissed on Thursday.

“We did a bunch of work and everything changed at the 11^th hour,” Kelly said. “It would have been nice to know three months ago it wasn’t going to be considered.”

Now what? This reporter here is tired of beating his head against the wall for something I think could really benefit the football tournament but appears to have little chance of ever happening. Maybe it is instructive to remember that for many years, the decision-makers found reasons not to have a football tournament at all (the weather, delaying basketball season, etc.).

It will be another two years before another proposal could come to a vote.

“I’m not a quitter,” Kelly said. “I’m extremely frustrated but I think we need more answers. Trust is important and I’m not sure there is a lot of that with the IIAAA or the IHSAA right now.”

 

[BTF]

"Unique," lol. 

"The blind draw gives teams with poor records a chance to play somebody they could possibly beat in the first round. "

Didn't that ship leave the port when Team A spent more time weight training in the off-season than Team B? I know this for certain even though I'm over 100 miles away. Those Brownsburg seniors busted their tails for four years for their shot at the state title. This wonderful idea the IHSAA came up with (something 49 other states scratch their heads at), sent those kids packing after one game. Shame on the IHSAA. 

 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

"Unique," lol. 

"The blind draw gives teams with poor records a chance to play somebody they could possibly beat in the first round. "

Didn't that ship leave the port when Team A spent more time weight training in the off-season than Team B? I know this for certain even though I'm over 100 miles away. Those Brownsburg seniors busted their tails for four years for their shot at the state title. This wonderful idea the IHSAA came up with (something 49 other states scratch their heads at), sent those kids packing after one game. Shame on the IHSAA. 

 

I believe this is the “equity” I am always hearing about modern education.

Punish the high end students/programs to cater to the low performing ones.

Pretty soon we are going to have a “redistribution” of accomplishments and Brownsburg is going to have to forfeit 3 of their wins and give them to Pike so that no one’s feelings get hurt and everyone can tout their “accomplishments.”

[Komets2727]

Ok, I think I got my blood alcohol level down to a .015 which means I am only double the legally drunk level. I still don’t have a totally coherent thought, but Hell, I feel like I fit in around here now… So, it seems my analogy of right wingers was a bit off. I should have just went with the first analogy that popped into my head at the time when I was on my 7th double captain and coke. Of course, I’ll be damned since my lack of current sobriety will allow me to recall whatever the first analogy was. Anyways, for now I will just say the old cronies don’t know what the bleep bleep 🤬 🤬they are doing!!! Carry on…

[Rodney]

4 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Ok, I think I got my blood alcohol level down to a .015 

booo boooo

 

 

also double the legal limit would be .16 you're good to go at .015 

[CoachGallogly]

I’m a massive supporter of the IFCA and I applaud their effort to implement this change. Being that I am no longer an active participant in the organization, I’ll use this avenue to make my suggestion. 
 

From afar, like most legislative initiatives, a middle ground likely has the best chance of passage. 
 

So here is my suggestion

Seed only #1 and # 2 of each Sectional, therefore guaranteeing you have no 1 v 2 matchups regardless of the total number of teams in the sectional. Then blind draw the rest. This allows for the chance of a ‘new season’ mentality for teams that have struggled. 
 

A middle ground approach that answers both points held by the different supporters.  

[Muda69]

13 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

ISo here is my suggestion

Seed only #1 and # 2 of each Sectional, therefore guaranteeing you have no 1 v 2 matchups regardless of the total number of teams in the sectional. Then blind draw the rest. This allows for the chance of a ‘new season’ mentality for teams that have struggled. 
 

A middle ground approach that answers both points held by the different supporters.  

The first time you have a #1 seed defeated by a randomly drawn #3 seed you will hear the uproar, especially in those tightly contested "sectionals of doom" where 4-5 programs have a legitimate shot at the sectional championship.

[CoachGallogly]

That’s why it’s called a compromise. 

[Bobref]

On 3/23/2024 at 5:49 PM, Muda69 said:

So that really says something about the overall quality of Indiana High School football.

 

Perhaps not the quality of the football, but definitely the entitlement mentality 35 yrs. or so of ping pong balls and all-in has fostered. The IHSAA’s waving the white flag because they couldn’t figure out how to please everyone with a qualification format is the single most destructive decision in the history of Indiana high school football. 

[Rodney]

people who care about this issue like participation awards

 

you play

 

you win or you lose

 

you go home

[Titan32]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:07 PM, CoachGallogly said:

I’m a massive supporter of the IFCA and I applaud their effort to implement this change. Being that I am no longer an active participant in the organization, I’ll use this avenue to make my suggestion. 
 

From afar, like most legislative initiatives, a middle ground likely has the best chance of passage. 
 

So here is my suggestion

Seed only #1 and # 2 of each Sectional, therefore guaranteeing you have no 1 v 2 matchups regardless of the total number of teams in the sectional. Then blind draw the rest. This allows for the chance of a ‘new season’ mentality for teams that have struggled. 
 

A middle ground approach that answers both points held by the different supporters.  

Coaches will support this small change.

[Bobref]

21 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

Coaches will support this small change.

The all in/random draw format will die the “Death of a Thousand Cuts.”

[jets]

This is so disappointing on so many levels. Shame on the IHSAA for being so hesitant/resistant to change. So 38 other States can have some sort of seeding/qualification - but we can't seem to figure out a format that works??? Give me a break. 

And if you can seed the top 2, you can seed everyone

Good regular seasons need to be rewarded. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

18 minutes ago, jets said:

This is so disappointing on so many levels. Shame on the IHSAA for being so hesitant/resistant to change. So 38 other States can have some sort of seeding/qualification - but we can't seem to figure out a format that works??? Give me a break. 

And if you can seed the top 2, you can seed everyone

Good regular seasons need to be rewarded. 

First, I want to say I agree with you completely, seed them all. But we won't ever do that because if you seed them all you might as well just take that first week of the playoffs out. Just going to be a bunch of blowouts. Even the sectional of death this last year with Chatard, Guerin, Peru, Tippy, Mac would have only had one competitive game in it maybe. The rest still would have been blowouts. So if you have a bunch of blowouts no one will go to the game or say we just shouldn't have it. Which means less money the IHSAA makes, so I don't think we will ever see everyone seeded. I agree that we should, just probably won't ever get to see it happen unless we just end up having a qualifier.

[tango]

I personally don't see how seeding 5A & 6A with only 4 teams in the Sectionals makes all that much difference. Yes, you push back a Brownsburg / BD type of game, but only for 1 week. For 5A & 6A, it makes more sense to me to seed the South and the North, which would be easier to do at 5A & 6A than in lower classes because of geographic concentration (especially in 6A). 

In lower classes that have 7&8 team Sectionals, seeding the top 2 and ping-ponging the teams is fine with me. That gives no/low-win teams a chance of drawing a competitive game (an IHSAA goal) and also insuring the top 2 teams aren't squaring off in round 1.     

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

First, I want to say I agree with you completely, seed them all. But we won't ever do that because if you seed them all you might as well just take that first week of the playoffs out. Just going to be a bunch of blowouts. Even the sectional of death this last year with Chatard, Guerin, Peru, Tippy, Mac(onaquah) would have only had one competitive game in it maybe. \

FTFY. It's not that hard to spell, really.   

And the IHSAA putting those Indy area p/p's in that sectional is frankly stupid.

 

[tango]

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

And the IHSAA putting those Indy area p/p's in that sectional is frankly stupid.

There were some funky groupings in several areas during the last cycle... HH and GS (2 PAC schools w/in 50 miles of each other) playing for a semi-state being an example...

 

Edited April 2 by tango