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Time to fix the broken 6A tournament


Guest DT

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11 minutes ago, Knightmare said:

I think the two division system would speed up the competitive balance in 6A as a whole.  How many more kids would want to play football at Zionsville if they won the 6A D2 title?  Tradition matters because tradition creates a winning CULTURE.  New Pal kids grow up wanting to be Dragons because they have a TRADITION of winning and that CULTURE is contagious at the lower levels.  Just check out Coach Ralph's twitter with the kids who were standing outside the weight room ready to get started.

 

I know I am talking about New Pal, but couldn't Zionsville or other D2 schools replicate that success to then be able to compete with the Mega Schools?

Errrr......do you mean like Center Grove does.....every year?

If you are looking for a “model” it’s been staring at us for some years.

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

No.  I dont want to see blowouts in the 6A title game.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

The 6A title game (D2) would have been a blowout this year (Center Grove vs whoever) as well as next year (until Center Grove is bumped to D1) under your current proposal. 

Your current proposal doesn't solve a fix to an all-MIC final because not every MIC team falls in the upper half of 6A due to enrollment.

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2 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Errrr......do you mean like Center Grove does.....every year?

If you are looking for a “model” it’s been staring at us for some years.

New Pals success is not quite as organic as is Center Groves'.

6000 plus rushing yards suddenly appeared out of nowhere to catapult the NP program to a new and much higher level.

You dont see that at CG.  And that includes the brief Russ Yeast era

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Errrr......do you mean like Center Grove does.....every year?

If you are looking for a “model” it’s been staring at us for some years.

I said in the Noblesville thread that they need to copy the CG formula, and I agree with you.  I was looking for a school who has had recent success that has now created a winning tradition and culture.  New Pal and CG are the prime examples of what can happen with the right hire and the right support

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4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

The 6A title game (D2) would have been a blowout this year (Center Grove vs whoever) as well as next year (until Center Grove is bumped to D1) under your current proposal. 

Your current proposal doesn't solve a fix to an all-MIC final because not every MIC team falls in the upper half of 6A due to enrollment.

There is no perfect fix, no answer to address every potential outlyer and exception.

Im sure you understand that

 

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6 minutes ago, Knightmare said:

I said in the Noblesville thread that they need to copy the CG formula, and I agree with you.  I was looking for a school who has had recent success that has now created a winning tradition and culture.  New Pal and CG are the prime examples of what can happen with the right hire and the right support

I dont believe the CG formula can be copied in this day and age.  It is a remnant of the 60s and 70s style of program development.

Neither kids nor parents have the dedication or the patience to endure what it takes to reach a CG level of achievement, relative to the competition.

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

I dont believe the CG formula can be copied in this day and age.  It is a remnant of the 60s and 70s style of program development.

Neither kids nor parents have the dedication or the patience to endure what it takes to reach a CG level of achievement, relative to the competition.

Is New Pal literally not doing it now, in relation to their size? Establish a culture, build a feeder system, and hit the weight room and you see the results. 

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Just now, DT said:

New Pals success is not quite as organic as is Center Groves'.

6000 plus rushing yards suddenly appeared out of nowhere to catapult the NP program to a new and much higher level.

You dont see that at CG.  And that includes the brief Russ Yeast era

 

 

That’s my point.  Center Grove’s success is built into their system - it is organic.....although it was a coaching and administrative decision to go that path originally.  CG competes at the  highest level each and every year against schools that are multiples of their size.

That aside, simply attributing New Pal’s success to one player sells them short.  A great coach came along roughly 7 years ago and built a hugely successful program up almost overnight.  I don’t doubt for a second that he would have found a way to win these last few years without a great RB.  But there lies the difference - New Pal has a brilliant coach that harnessed existing talent. 

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8 minutes ago, DT said:

There is no perfect fix, no answer to address every potential outlyer and exception.

Im sure you understand that

 

What are you talking about, you literally said the 6A tournament was broken because it's continuously an all-MIC final more times than not. Carmel moving to the south bracket literally solves that. Not only will you see new representation in 6A north semi-state, but the 6A finals. 

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9 minutes ago, Knightmare said:

I said in the Noblesville thread that they need to copy the CG formula, and I agree with you.  I was looking for a school who has had recent success that has now created a winning tradition and culture.  New Pal and CG are the prime examples of what can happen with the right hire and the right support

I totally agree with you.  I also think that whatever Noblesville does, it needs to go a different direction - like CG has with their offense.

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2 minutes ago, Lysander said:

That’s my point.  Center Grove’s success is built into their system - it is organic.....although it was a coaching and administrative decision to go that path originally.  CG competes at the  highest level each and every year against schools that are multiples of their size.

That aside, simply attributing New Pal’s success to one player sells them short.  A great coach came along roughly 7 years ago and built a hugely successful program up almost overnight.  I don’t doubt for a second that he would have found a way to win these last few years without a great RB.  But there lies the difference - New Pal has a brilliant coach that harnessed existing talent. 

I am in no way disparaging NP success.  Im simply pointing out the reality of the giant elephant in the room.  Where are they without the extra 6000 yards and the 100 touchdowns?  Ralph has indeed built an elite program.  But he has built it against similar size schools, most of which do not have anywhere near the level of dedication to the game that you will find in The MIC, The HCC, The Circle City, The MSC, etc.

I maintain that the transfer of Spegal disrupted the entire competitive balance of the HHC, as well as having a major impact on the entirety of Classes 4A and 5A.  

It can be counter productive if the IHSAA continues to allow elite athletes free reign to move to magnet schools at their leisure.

 

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20 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Explain 3A then.

I assume you are referring to the completely "random" Sectional of Death?  Folks often mistake West Lafayette for being a Catholic school given its proximity to the Cathedral. 😃

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6 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I totally agree with you.  I also think that whatever Noblesville does, it needs to go a different direction - like CG has with their offense.

Good luck copying the CG formula.  Some highly regarded CG assistants have attempted to export the CG formula to other schools, without success.  What is happening at Franklin right now is the model for Noblesville to follow.  Franklin tried the CG way, and failed.  

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Just now, foxbat said:

I assume you are referring to the completely "random" Sectional of Death?  Folks often mistake West Lafayette for being a Catholic school given its proximity to the Cathedral. 😃

Not only that, the whole South bracket is HUGELY lopsided.  I absolutely believe there was method to the madness but it had nothing to do with competitive balance.

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4 minutes ago, DT said:

Good luck copying the CG formula.  Some highly regarded CG assistants have attempted to export the CG formula to other schools, without success.  What is happening at Franklin right now is the model for Noblesville to follow.  Franklin tried the CG way, and failed.  

Outside of a Ralph coming in, it’s probably going to have to be a system based solution.  You can’t just plug in a cookie cutter system like the other HCC schools and expect a new result.  There lies madness.

No tradition there....none.  Going to take a bottom up fix there.

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Pike is an A school by the DOE, the only in Marion County.  There are smart kids walking the hallways.  Most students walking the hallways at Pike are eligible to play sports.  The biggest factors (having walked these hallways for a 3-year period in the late 00’s) are lack of interest and a number of athletes moving out of the district.  Over 80% of the football program as a whole were on free/reduced lunch.  In my 23 years of being around football as a coach, what a student pays for their lunch has never mattered in the overall health of a football program.  Pike btw is actually getting smaller and is projected to be under 2,800 in the next decade.

 

Ben Davis and Warren Central for that matter come from two of the poorest communities in the State of Indiana, yet have thriving athletic programs.  Why?  They have hard working student athletes, money invested into their programs and great coaches (two of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the country).  I don’t know about BD, but I know a LARGE LARGE majority of players in the WC football program are on free/reduced lunch.  
 

Where you all should be looking is money spent and resources available at the best programs.  Lake Central, Pike, Noblesville, Crown Point (has improved some in money spent), Tech, all of these programs don’t spend near the amount of money toward their program as the others are spending.  
 

None of those are the true point though as it is this is a “Big 4 Problem.”   It’s not an issue for all of 6A.  It’s mainly the Big 4 of the MIC (at least to this point in the tournament.)  Carmel went south in 11 and 12, so if we look at 2013-2019, out of those 7 years, these 4 teams have dominated the semi-state rounds:

Carmel - 7 appearances

Center Grove - 6 appearances

Ben Davis - 4 appearances

Warren Central - 2 appearances

(19 of 28, 7 is by the north regional winner, and the other 2 are by Avon)

 

If we split the 6A tournament into 2 divisions (by the way, currently 12 Indy area teams and 4 northern Indiana meaning travel would be an absolute disaster) we would eventually get to the point of having 4 teams dominate the top division.  My point is going into 2 divisions only solves the issue for schools 17-32.  Over the last decade, it’s safe to say they would have had somewhere between 6-8 different winners.  In the top division, it’s a proven fact that over the last 10 years the top division would have been won by Carmel 3 times, Ben Davis 2 times, Warren 2 times, CG 1 time (if we assume they’d be on top division based on success) and the others 2 times (2010 & 2012.) 2012 was a state finals by 2 6A-2 schools and CG just happened to be the next best team, so we could technically say that CG would’ve won in 2012 as well.  This just comes back to the point that the issue is the Big 4.  They’re dominating everyone else, and if given the opportunity, 8 out of 10 times, these teams would dominate the semi-state round.  
 

I don’t know there is a solution that is fair.  If we allow teams 17-32 (oh, and if you thought travel was bad for 6A-1, you should see it for 6A-2 — that’s certainly not going to help attendance) to have their own tournament, suddenly you’re going to have multiple winners in that division and the same winners in the big division.  Yes, I understand that other schools are getting better, but we can only use current data for this, and the current data shows that only 4 schools have dominated.

 

If CG were in Division 2 all along, CG would have 9 titles, LC 1 (both MIC teams) and D1 would have 7 MIC titles, 1 by Penn (2015 loss to CG), 1 by Fishers and based on the way the tournament went in 2012, 1 by Merrillville.  Again, this doesn’t support the theory that the tournament should be split into 16 teams each.

 

At some point you have to draw the line.

 

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11 minutes ago, DT said:

Good luck copying the CG formula.  Some highly regarded CG assistants have attempted to export the CG formula to other schools, without success.  What is happening at Franklin right now is the model for Noblesville to follow.  Franklin tried the CG way, and failed.  

I think hiring the right coach absolutely matters.  Coll, Gillin, and Moore are all proven winners who do it in their own way.  

 

4 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Outside of a Ralph coming in, it’s probably going to have to be a system based solution.  You can’t just plug in a cookie cutter system like the other HCC schools and expect a new result.  There lies madness.

No tradition there....none.  Going to take a bottom up fix there.

Exactly.  A new system that would shake up the HCC would be highly beneficial to Noblesville.  Teams would have to start preparing for how to defend Noblesville like teams in the MIC do with CG.  Running another spread system that teams see all year would just keep Noblesville lost in the shuffle of the HCC.   

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25 minutes ago, Knightmare said:

I think hiring the right coach absolutely matters.  Coll, Gillin, and Moore are all proven winners who do it in their own way.  

 

Exactly.  A new system that would shake up the HCC would be highly beneficial to Noblesville.  Teams would have to start preparing for how to defend Noblesville like teams in the MIC do with CG.  Running another spread system that teams see all year would just keep Noblesville lost in the shuffle of the HCC.   

Darrin Fisher's Whiteland offense would be an intriguing and unique fit at Noblesville and in the HCC. 

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1 hour ago, DT said:

I am in no way disparaging NP success.  Im simply pointing out the reality of the giant elephant in the room.  Where are they without the extra 6000 yards and the 100 touchdowns?  Ralph has indeed built an elite program.  But he has built it against similar size schools, most of which do not have anywhere near the level of dedication to the game that you will find in The MIC, The HCC, The Circle City, The MSC, etc.

Spegal's addition made a strong case for New Pal being the #1 team in the state these last two years, but you're surely selling the job Ralph has done short if you think it has started and ended with Spegal. 

New Pal was 60-4 before Spegal transferred in and had a state title to boot and lost a thriller to a school over twice their size in a second state final. New Pal likely will take a step back next year but as a 4a school by enrollment, they're still going to be better than 95% of their 5A counterparts. 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Spegal's addition made a strong case for New Pal being the #1 team in the state these last two years, but you're surely selling the job Ralph has done short if you think it has started and ended with Spegal. 

New Pal was 60-4 before Spegal transferred in and had a state title to boot and lost a thriller to a school over twice their size in a second state final. New Pal likely will take a step back next year but as a 4a school by enrollment, they're still going to be better than 95% of their 5A counterparts. 

No doubt.

However that does speak also to the relative weakness of the competition.

Its gotten so bad that Shelbyville is suspending their varsity program 

 

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8 minutes ago, DT said:

No doubt.

However that does speak also to the relative weakness of the competition.

Its gotten so bad that Shelbyville is suspending their varsity program 

 

You asked, "where are they at without the extra 6000 yards and 100 touchdowns". They were a 60-4 program with a state title and and a runner-up before he ever got to New Pal. They were 3-7 the year before Ralph arrived. Where do YOU think they're at without Spegal? Maybe not the best football program in the state, but a very damn good one nonetheless who still could punch way above their weight. 

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10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You asked, "where are they at without the extra 6000 yards and 100 touchdowns". They were a 60-4 program with a state title and and a runner-up before he ever got to New Pal. They were 3-7 the year before Ralph arrived. Where do YOU think they're at without Spegal? Maybe not the best football program in the state, but a very damn good one nonetheless who still could punch way above their weight. 

This is not about New Pal

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So if the issue is the top echelon, i.e., 1-16 in 6A, what happens if you roll 17-32 into 5A and make 5A 48 teams?  It would mean an increase in numbers of roughly a bit under 500 students for the cap of a modified 5A.   Even accounting for the Success Factor additions, the current range of 5A, you are talking about a roughly 1,020.  If you look at the range of a new 5A, using the current 17-32 of 6A, you end up with a roughly 1,500 range of the new 5A.  More importantly, if you endeavor to make the new 5A spread the same as the current 5A spread, the new 5A spread would only lose four schools, not including the two from Success Factor ... the four dropped to 4A would be Seymore, Musnter, Mishawaka, and BNL.  Given that mix, you'd probably just leave those four in 5A and go with a 48-team new 5A class.

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12 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I think this has been covered, but splitting 6A into 2 groups based on today's IHSAA enrollment is a 561 population difference.  (16 vs 32)  What does that really solve?

You talk about Carmel, BD and WC dominance...but there are a number of high schools about 3000 that haven't had that type of success.  Not even close.  Not even in the same stratosphere.  Perhaps those are better programs because they also invest...in coaching, in facilities, in feeder systems.....perhaps its part of their culture.

We had 5 classes just until 2013.....

Quite frankly, a 4A high school (playing up in 5A) would have given any 6A team a run for its money.....may have just whipped them all.  The only reason I say "may" is I'm just not sure how a number of young men playing both ways for 5 straight games in the 6A south would have fared.  But NP was one of (if not the best) team I saw play all season.

💯💯💯

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