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Is the end coming for Harbaugh at Michigan?


Guest DT

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

Those jobs are not what they used to be.

College football is losing popularity in the western US and Texas plays its own unique regional style of ball that puts it at a disadvantage against the NFL style play of the SEC and the BIG Ten, and the ACC to a lesser extent.  Elite coaches know this.  Mike Leach just left a cushy job at Washington State to become SEC cannon fodder at Miss State.  Lane Kiffin and Steve Sarkisian left the bright lights of LA behind to work for Saban at Alabama.  Chip Kelly was exposed as a fraud with the Eagles and went back with hgis tail between his legs to the PAC 12 at UCLA.  Mel Tucker bailed on Colorado after one year to coach the MSU Spartans.  Oregon will likley lose Mario Cristobal to a big time eastern college power or to the NFL, further weakening the western coaching ranks.

 

Those jobs aren't what they used to be because those programs made several bad decisions that have lead them to where they are now. Clay Helton and Tom Herman aren't on the same stratosphere as Urban Meyer. Los Angeles is the single best recruiting hot bed in the country and Texas high school football as a whole speaks for itself. If you're an LA kid would you want to play for Clay Helton or go east? Put a coach like Urban Meyer into the equation its a no-brainer. 

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9 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Those jobs aren't what they used to be because those programs made several bad decisions that have lead them to where they are now. Clay Helton and Tom Herman aren't on the same stratosphere as Urban Meyer. Los Angeles is the single best recruiting hot bed in the country and Texas high school football as a whole speaks for itself. If you're an LA kid would you want to play for Clay Helton or go east? Put a coach like Urban Meyer into the equation its a no-brainer. 

California has been losing recruits to SEC colleges consistently now for a decade.  Another trend you might not have noticed is that the west coast, due to changes in diet and the new wave vegan movement, is producing fewer and smaller linemen than in years past.  I recall some quotes from the Ohio State staff when they played Oregon a few years back in the college playoff.  The OSU coaches were shocked at how small the Oregon linemen were.  This is a trend up and down the west coast.  

Texas high school linemen are not being schooled to run block or to use their size to their advantage.  They mostly stand around and watch the ball get thrown 120 times a game.

These are fundamental changes that will funnel up and through to the NFL over time.  The Alabama/Georgia/Florida/Louisiana/South Carolina recruiting zone is the most fertile for high end talent in the history of high school and college football.  Texas, and especially USC, are a long way away from the action.  And both schools must share the California and Texas resources with 30 other local schools.  

The PAC 12 is quickly running towards irrelevancy.  Christobal is the only elite coach in the entire conference.  David Shaw has had a nice run at Stanford but his name does not come up when big jobs open.  How does a life long California guy go into the southeast to recruit against the SEC?

 

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20 minutes ago, DT said:

California has been losing recruits to SEC colleges consistently now for a decade.  Another trend you might not have noticed is that the west coast, due to changes in diet and the new wave vegan movement, is producing fewer and smaller linemen than in years past.  I recall some quotes from the Ohio State staff when they played Oregon a few years back in the college playoff.  The OSU coaches were shocked at how small the Oregon linemen were.  This is a trend up and down the west coast.  

Texas high school linemen are not being schooled to run block or to use their size to their advantage.  They mostly stand around and watch the ball get thrown 120 times a game.

These are fundamental changes that will funnel up and through to the NFL over time.  The Alabama/Georgia/Florida/Louisiana/South Carolina recruiting zone is the most fertile for high end talent in the history of high school and college football.  Texas, and especially USC, are a long way away from the action.  And both schools must share the California and Texas resources with 30 other local schools.  

The PAC 12 is quickly running towards irrelevancy.  Christobal is the only elite coach in the entire conference.  David Shaw has had a nice run at Stanford but his name does not come up when big jobs open.  How does a life long California guy go into the southeast to recruit against the SEC?

 

That speaks to the ineptitude of the coaching culture in the PAC12 especially at SC. Guarantee you with a namesake like Urban, Trojans are recruiting above and beyond everybody else. It was too long ago when USC was the most dominant program in college football under Pete Carroll. Those teams were chalked full of Southern California talent and in fact, didn't need to look elsewhere. The football talent in California (especially LA) still exists and is ripe for the taking. Urban Meyer solves this problem overnight.  

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16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That speaks to the ineptitude of the coaching culture in the PAC12 especially at SC. Guarantee you with a namesake like Urban, Trojans are recruiting above and beyond everybody else. It was too long ago when USC was the most dominant program in college football under Pete Carroll. Those teams were chalked full of Southern California talent and in fact, didn't need to look elsewhere. The football talent in California (especially LA) still exists and is ripe for the taking. Urban Meyer solves this problem overnight.  

Perhaps, but can you get him out there?  That is the real question.  And for that matter, how many big games do USC and TX really play in anuually?  The ND-USC rivalry has lost much of its luster, and no one watches PAC 12 football other than west coast people.  Texas vs Oklahoma?  No big deal anymore.  Its a regional rivalry.  Meyer is used to coaching in BIG GAMES against Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, LSU<, Auburn, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin., Michigan State, Nebraska.   Its not even close.  

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16 minutes ago, DT said:

Perhaps, but can you get him out there?  That is the real question.  And for that matter, how many big games do USC and TX really play in anuually?  The ND-USC rivalry has lost much of its luster, and no one watches PAC 12 football other than west coast people.  Texas vs Oklahoma?  No big deal anymore.  Its a regional rivalry.  Meyer is used to coaching in BIG GAMES against Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, LSU<, Auburn, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin., Michigan State, Nebraska.   Its not even close.  

What big games does Michigan play lol? They no longer play ND every year and its a 40 point loss every year to Ohio State. If the ND-USC rivalry has lost most of its luster, what do you call the OSU-UM game?

I'd argue Clemson doesn't play a single big game playing in the ACC, but that doesn't stop them from being one of the best college football programs in the country. Urban at Texas or USC immediately makes those schools national title contenders. The big games will the come in the form of the college football playoff. 

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11 minutes ago, DT said:

Perhaps, but can you get him out there?  That is the real question.  And for that matter, how many big games do USC and TX really play in anuually?  The ND-USC rivalry has lost much of its luster, and no one watches PAC 12 football other than west coast people.  Texas vs Oklahoma?  No big deal anymore.  Its a regional rivalry.  Meyer is used to coaching in BIG GAMES against Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, LSU<, Auburn, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin., Michigan State, Nebraska.   Its not even close.  

I do and I have never been to the left coast.

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6 minutes ago, DE said:

I do and I have never been to the left coast.

You are in the minority.  PAC 12 TV revenue is dwarfed by that in the SEC, BT and ACC.  Even the B12 blows the PAC out of the water.  Pro sports dominate the left coast, especially in CA.  

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49 minutes ago, DT said:

You are in the minority.  PAC 12 TV revenue is dwarfed by that in the SEC, BT and ACC.  Even the B12 blows the PAC out of the water.  Pro sports dominate the left coast, especially in CA.  

That is fine.  I will be watching the Stanford/Oregon game Saturday night.

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

What big games does Michigan play lol? They no longer play ND every year and its a 40 point loss every year to Ohio State. If the ND-USC rivalry has lost most of its luster, what do you call the OSU-UM game?

I'd argue Clemson doesn't play a single big game playing in the ACC, but that doesn't stop them from being one of the best college football programs in the country. Urban at Texas or USC immediately makes those schools national title contenders. The big games will the come in the form of the college football playoff. 

Got to get him there first dude.  Good luck w that.

Hed be at either place already if he really wanted the job.

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

What big games does Michigan play lol? They no longer play ND every year and its a 40 point loss every year to Ohio State. If the ND-USC rivalry has lost most of its luster, what do you call the OSU-UM game?

I'd argue Clemson doesn't play a single big game playing in the ACC, but that doesn't stop them from being one of the best college football programs in the country. Urban at Texas or USC immediately makes those schools national title contenders. The big games will the come in the form of the college football playoff. 

Clemson has become what USC, Florida State  and Texas used to be, a national program.  They achieved that thru consistent and competitive appearances in the college football playoff.  

And Michigan is still Michigan, with the biggest fan base in the country after Notre Dame.  

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11 minutes ago, DT said:

Got to get him there first dude.  Good luck w that.

Hed be at either place already if he really wanted the job.

Well both jobs technically haven't been open since he's been available.

Can say with 99.9% certainty that Urban won't even get a call from Michigan when/if the job becomes open and can say with 100% conviction Urban will NEVER coach at Michigan.

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13 minutes ago, DT said:

Clemson has become what USC, Florida State  and Texas used to be, a national program.  They achieved that thru consistent and competitive appearances in the college football playoff.  

And Michigan is still Michigan, with the biggest fan base in the country after Notre Dame.  

Outside Ohio State and Alabama and maybe Oklahoma, there isn't a better college football program than USC. USC is a blue blood college football program, the last 10 years doesn't change that. Texas may not have the historical accolades of Michigan, but in the last 50 years is entirely more relevant than Michigan. It's the most resourceful college program in the country.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Well both jobs technically haven't been open since he's been available.

Can say with 99.9% certainty that Urban won't even get a call from Michigan when/if the job becomes open and can say with 100% conviction Urban will NEVER coach at Michigan.

As usual, you are pretty sure of yourself.

Meyer is a diffferent dude.  He likes to swim against the current and is not afraid of controversy.  Its widely known his dream job was to coach ND.  With that option likley out the window, where can he have the most success utilizing the skillset that brought him such great success at OSU?

Its Michigan over TX and USC, primarily due to culture, recruiting focus and style of play.  Rememeber that Urban is typically a 6 and out guy.  he is late 50s with heart trouble.  I think he would like to coach 5 more years max.  He can fix UM over nite.  It will take years to build the TX and LA recruiting pipelines to the southeast, where he is connected.  He may not have that much time, or want to invest that much time of what he has left.  He went 12-0 his first year at OSU.  he could do the same at UM.  

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

As usual, you are pretty sure of yourself.

Meyer is a diffferent dude.  He likes to swim against the current and is not afraid of controversy.  Its widely known his dream job was to coach ND.  With that option likley out the window, where can he have the most success utilizing the skillset that brought him such great success at OSU?

Its Michigan over TX and USC, primarily due to culture, recruiting focus and style of play.  Rememeber that Urban is typically a 6 and out guy.  he is late 50s with heart trouble.  I think he would like to coach 5 more years max.  He can fix UM over nite.  It will take years to build the TX and LA recruiting pipelines to the southeast, where he is connected.  He may not have that much time, or want to invest that much time of what he has left.  He went 12-0 his first year at OSU.  he could do the same at UM.  

He can do that at USC and Texas.

Meyer isn't out-recruiting Saban, Dabo, and Smart for Southeast recruits (at Michigan) and not out-recruiting Day at Ohio State. However, if he goes to USC or Texas, he can put a stranglehold on the Southern California/Texas market while still being able to recruit the Midwest. What Midwest kid wouldn't want to go to Los Angeles or Austin giving the coaching staff is the right fit?

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8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Outside Ohio State and Alabama and maybe Oklahoma, there isn't a better college football program than USC. USC is a blue blood college football program, the last 10 years doesn't change that. Texas may not have the historical accolades of Michigan, but in the last 50 years is entirely more relevant than Michigan. It's the most resourceful college program in the country.

USC and TX have been irrelevant since reggie Bush and Vince left town.

5 star athletes flood OSU/GA/LSU/AL/CLEM/ND because they see these schools consistently in the playoffs.  I dont see Urban Meyer becoming a big hit with the good old boy Texas high school football coaching network.  That takes years to achieve.  Chip Kelly was supposed to work wonders at UCLA.  He has been a flat out bust.  COVID has hurt college football in the west much more than in any other region of the country.  They will have difficulty returning to full speed.  It could take years.

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23 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Well both jobs technically haven't been open since he's been available.

Can say with 99.9% certainty that Urban won't even get a call from Michigan when/if the job becomes open and can say with 100% conviction Urban will NEVER coach at Michigan.

I've been seeing that 99.9% rate all over the place lately.

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

USC and TX have been irrelevant since reggie Bush and Vince left town.

5 star athletes flood OSU/GA/LSU/AL/CLEM/ND because they see these schools consistently in the playoffs.  I dont see Urban Meyer becoming a big hit with the good old boy Texas high school football coaching network.  That takes years to achieve.  Chip Kelly was supposed to work wonders at UCLA.  He has been a flat out bust.  COVID has hurt college football in the west much more than in any other region of the country.  They will have difficulty returning to full speed.  It could take years.

When was the last time Michigan was relevant? A lot longer than USC and Texas.

Texas still recruits at an extremely high level but Tom Herman is in way over his head. USC got hammered with NCAA probations and hired coordinators in Kiffin/Sark/Helton with their next 3 hires which has proven to be a disaster. What LA kid is going to want to play for Clay Helton? USC is a good hire away from immediately returning to the top of the college football hierarchy.

Notre Dame has landed exactly one 5* in their last 5 recruiting classes, a TE from Kentucky. 

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25 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

When was the last time Michigan was relevant? A lot longer than USC and Texas.

Texas still recruits at an extremely high level but Tom Herman is in way over his head. USC got hammered with NCAA probations and hired coordinators in Kiffin/Sark/Helton with their next 3 hires which has proven to be a disaster. What LA kid is going to want to play for Clay Helton? USC is a good hire away from immediately returning to the top of the college football hierarchy.

Notre Dame has landed exactly one 5* in their last 5 recruiting classes, a TE from Kentucky. 

Michigan is relevent and in the conversation every year.  Its due to the sheer strength and breadth of the brand.  Michigans biggest problem has been that it has run into the OSU juggernaut for nearly trwo decades now.  Harbaugh has had much more success than Hoke or Rich Rod , but Brutus Buckeye has become a bully and manhandled all comers.  Michigan has fans and supporters all over the country.  Texas support is based in Texas.  

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13 minutes ago, DT said:

Michigan is relevent and in the conversation every year.  Its due to the sheer strength and breadth of the brand.  Michigans biggest problem has been that it has run into the OSU juggernaut for nearly trwo decades now.  Harbaugh has had much more success than Hoke or Rich Rod , but Brutus Buckeye has become a bully and manhandled all comers.  Michigan has fans and supporters all over the country.  Texas support is based in Texas.  

Michigan can't even beat Michigan State with any kind of regularity, Harbaugh included. What are you talking about?

Only once has Michigan finished better than 3rd in their own division since Harbaugh has taken over. Penn State, Michigan State, and Ohio State have all won the B10 in said time frame. It's still a big job considering their namesake and tradition, but it's not the ticking timebomb that is USC and Texas. 

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10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Michigan can't even beat Michigan State with any kind of regularity, Harbaugh included. What are you talking about?

Only once has Michigan finished better than 3rd in their own division since Harbaugh has taken over. Penn State, Michigan State, and Ohio State have all won the B10 in said time frame. It's still a big job considering their namesake and tradition, but it's not the ticking timebomb that is USC and Texas. 

Harbaugh is 47-18 at UM, 72.3 winning percentage.  That would be off the charts good anywhere else but at Michigan.  He has not won the big games, which is why we are having the discussion.  But Michigan is not far from being a Top 10 team.  We both know that.  

If Day were to go to the NFL, OSU would probably bring in Fickell now that he has successful D1 HC experience.  

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1 hour ago, DT said:

As usual, you are pretty sure of yourself.

Meyer is a diffferent dude.  He likes to swim against the current and is not afraid of controversy.  Its widely known his dream job was to coach ND.  With that option likley out the window, where can he have the most success utilizing the skillset that brought him such great success at OSU?

Its Michigan over TX and USC, primarily due to culture, recruiting focus and style of play.  Rememeber that Urban is typically a 6 and out guy.  he is late 50s with heart trouble.  I think he would like to coach 5 more years max.  He can fix UM over nite.  It will take years to build the TX and LA recruiting pipelines to the southeast, where he is connected.  He may not have that much time, or want to invest that much time of what he has left.  He went 12-0 his first year at OSU.  he could do the same at UM.  

I hear this quite often, but when has Meyer actually been quoted as saying it? Was it back when he was an Assistant at ND? 

You continue to ignore Footballking's point. Texas and USC would easily have Top 10, more than likely, Top 5 recruiting classes if Meyer were their coach. Both schools are wallowing due to bad coaching hires and still pulling in respectiable classes. Texas was #8 last year in 247 and USC is currently #7 with quite a few recruits out of Georgia/Florida. Texas is the wealthiest Athletic Dept in the Country and USC is LA's real "Pro" Team. They have an alumni base that cares about football and a rabid subway-alum following. You're really reaching DT if you don't think either of those programs are sleeping giants that Meyer would turn into regular CFP contenders. He isn't going to need years to fix recruiting pipelines. He's Urban Meyer. He calls and players listen. I think you're also underestimating the desire for a lot of recruits to reach the NFL. A lot of offensive skilled players are going to be more worried about Meyer developing them into an NFL draft pick as opposed to playing in the SEC, Big Ten, etc.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, DT said:

Harbaugh is 47-18 at UM, 72.3 winning percentage.  That would be off the charts good anywhere else but at Michigan.  He has not won the big games, which is why we are having the discussion.  But Michigan is not far from being a Top 10 team.  We both know that.  

If Day were to go to the NFL, OSU would probably bring in Fickell now that he has successful D1 HC experience.  

Harbaugh is:

0-5 against Ohio State

3-3 against Michigan State

3-2 against Penn State

1-4 in bowl games

Ohio State is just a small part of Harbaugh's problem

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21 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I hear this quite often, but when has Meyer actually been quoted as saying it? Was it back when he was an Assistant at ND? 

You continue to ignore Footballking's point. Texas and USC would easily have Top 10, more than likely, Top 5 recruiting classes if Meyer were their coach. Both schools are wallowing due to bad coaching hires and still pulling in respectiable classes. Texas was #8 last year in 247 and USC is currently #7 with quite a few recruits out of Georgia/Florida. Texas is the wealthiest Athletic Dept in the Country and USC is LA's real "Pro" Team. They have an alumni base that cares about football and a rabid subway-alum following. You're really reaching DT if you don't think either of those programs are sleeping giants that Meyer would turn into regular CFP contenders. He isn't going to need years to fix recruiting pipelines. He's Urban Meyer. He calls and players listen. I think you're also underestimating the desire for a lot of recruits to reach the NFL. A lot of offensive skilled players are going to be more worried about Meyer developing them into an NFL draft pick as opposed to playing in the SEC, Big Ten, etc.

 

 

This ^^^

DT continually fails to see or completely ignores the recruiting pipeline into USC and Texas has been halted due to coaching athletic department incompetence. 

It's not like Texas and and Southern California stopped playing high school football, recruits just stopped going to those schools because of the current coaching climates. Urban Meyer fixes that instantly and then some. It's easier to recruit at Texas and USC than it is at Michigan naturally, hire one of the best college football coaches of all-time and it becomes cake. 

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