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tommy

0-10 programs: What is it going to take to turn things around

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Here is a list of the programs that went winless this season and might be looking to make a change and turn this around.  

 

There are also about twice as many teams that went 1-9 and in many cases their only win came against one of the winless teams, for example Griffith went 1-9 and only had their only win against 1-9 Bowman Academy, Bowman Academy's only win came Friday night against 0-10 River Forest.  Bowman Academy will now travel to 2A #1 ranked Renssellear on Friday night and finish 1-10.

 
Indianapolis North Central
Goshen (0-9) got a bye last week and should go 0-10 Friday night.
Indianapolis Northwest (we've already discussed the Space Pioneers situation earlier this season)
Brown County
River Forest
Taylor
Indianapolis Manual
Tri
Riverton Parke
Wood Memorial
 
In most cases the Points For/Points against disparity is unbelievably lopsided and many has had multiple winless or 1 win seasons.
 
What is the biggest factor as to why these programs are so noncompetitive?
 
What is it going to take to turn these under performing programs around?
 
A couple years ago the IHSAA implemented the "Success Factor" which was designed to slow the domination of the programs that were dominating Indiana High School Sports tournaments.
 
Perhaps what is now needed is a "Failure Factor," which would be designed to weed out programs at the bottom of the athletic food chain who consistently fail to meet a "minimum" level of performance and participation.
 
 
 
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Perhaps what is now needed is a "Failure Factor," which would be designed to weed out programs at the bottom of the athletic food chain who consistently fail to meet a "minimum" level of performance and participation.

 

 

Seriously!  You did not just recommend giving schools the "death penalty" for poor performance, did you!?

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Seriously!  You did not just recommend giving schools the "death penalty" for poor performance, did you!?

That was the way I read it too.....Just wow!!!

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So I guess only the strong survive and we let the weak fall behind to die?  Maybe it was meant to be a joke (?).  If so, it was in VERY poor taste and if it was meant to be serious suggestion, read The Fine Print's comment (post #2).

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I assume what tommy is proposing is moving these programs down a class, based on his comparison to the success factor. If so, we've already had the annual "Promotion & Relegation" debate in another thread.

If not, then I agree with the previous responses. Players can benefit even if they don't win a game.

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I don't see why the IHSAA would need to do something to try to "fix" these programs?

Should that not be the responsibility of the schools? If your team continues to lose, maybe

change the coach? Brownstown was 0-9 in 1992, Coach May's first season was 1993,

problem solved. Do schools just not care about their programs? Can they not afford to

attract a good coach? Do they not offer enough resources to the team to allow even a

good coach to do well? I just don't understand losing year after year after year.

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There are a lot of factors for teams not winning on Friday night, but to talk about eliminating them from participation is crazy! There are a bunch of kids that work their tails off to succeed and they shouldn't have to be the butt off your joke. High schools cannot control what kids live in their districts, and smaller schools may not have big numbers every year. As long as there are kids still wanting to compete and work for their program, then there is no reason to talk about "weeding out" teams. High School athletics is way more about developing quality people, than just wins and losses!

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Riverton Parke and Wood Memorial could put Dugger back on their schedule, that might help every team involved.

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I am not an expert in math or statistics, etc., but it would seem to me that if you eliminated the bottom 5% of teams, wouldn't there be another 5% of teams to replace them?  There are no more losses in a season than there are wins, so if you remove the bottom a new group will become the bottom!  Unless you expect every team to be .500, it is absolutely ludicrous to eliminate bad teams! 

 

You don't have a Carmel without a North Central.  You don't have McCutcheon without Goshen.  You don't have New Pal without Indy Northwest, etc.

 

Of course everyone wants to get better!  But you don't have winners without having losers.

Edited by The Fine Print
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Of course everyone wants to get better!  But you don't have winners without having losers.

Which is why a comprehensive system of relegation & promotion, where classes represent the success/failure of a football program over a set period of time instead of just simplistic student enrollment, makes sense.

Consistent winner move up to face bigger challenges, consistent losers move down to face competition more in line with their current abilities.

Edited by Muda69
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Which is why a comprehensive system of relegation & promotion, where classes represent the success/failure of a football program over a set period of time instead of just simplistic student enrollment, makes sense.

Consistent winner move up to face bigger challenges, consistent losers move down to face competition more in line with their current abilities.

What I am saying we have a system where programs move up in classification when they succeed.  Why don't we have a system in place for when they fail?

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Luers went 0-9 in regular season last year, this year they are tri- conference champs and one of the favorites to win 3a. Would you have moved them back down to 2a?

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Luers went 0-9 in regular season last year, this year they are tri- conference champs and one of the favorites to win 3a. Would you have moved them back down to 2a?

 

Ha, great point.  There are a lot of factors that weigh into the performance of a team.  You'd have to weigh it over a 5 - 7 year span along with strength of schedule.  Luers plays a very tough schedule. 

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Too complicated, we are dealt with what we have, it was hard enough to get the success factor passed. 

 

Like life there are levels of success in everything, the schools and the players in them at those lower success levels, have to be playing football because they love it.

 

It takes a special kid to go out there every Friday knowing your likely going to get beat by 40 points by halftime, and knowing the other team easily could score 100 on you if they so choose.  Hard lessons learned most friday nights, those teams do not get much exposure or much of anything except of being a stat line for another team.

 

It is not easy for a successful team to play a team of much lower competition, you do not get the repetitions that a full game of same quality competition would give you. 

 

Not a perfect world and our sports show it, if you look at professional sports, they do as much as possible by changing the rules constantly to keep competitivness.  They know it attracts people to the stands and viewers, it makes the sport better.  HS football has yet to learn this, way behind the times, unfortunately it is about ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME not WE WE WE WE guess that is why if you drive thru a town or city you will NOT see large crowds at most HS football games, because most times the winner is decided before the kickoff.  The playoffs are fun as you finally get some competition in at least 1 game of each sectional.

 

HS football is not really much different, except it is an extracurricular activity, though at times used for other things than that. Lot of very good athletes never step onto a football field at those schools that are not competitive, if you take a good look many of them are successfull at other sports, as athletes concentrate on those.

 

Southern Indiana is full of schools who feel they cannot compete, so they concentrate on others sports and are very successfull at them. 

 

Just they way it is.  I think Tommy asked some good questions.

Edited by EFB
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Isn't this a discussion for January, along with the annual qualify to get it, seed the sectionals, something has to be done about the P/P's, etc.  This is week two of the tournament, lets focus on all that is right with Indiana Football.

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Which is why a comprehensive system of relegation & promotion, where classes represent the success/failure of a football program over a set period of time instead of just simplistic student enrollment, makes sense.

Consistent winner move up to face bigger challenges, consistent losers move down to face competition more in line with their current abilities.

I guess the reason I have always had a little bit of an issue with success factors is that we think in terms of "programs", and not the individual kids that make up those programs. In other words, is it fair to make one set of kids compete at a certain level based on what a totally different set of kids did in the past? Is success, if earned through hard work on a reasonably level playing field, really such a bad thing, to be discouraged and legislated against?

 

The key is the playing field has to be at least reasonably level, which it hasn't been in the past. Hence the current "Success Factor", which is just a bad but expedient solution.  I agree that classifying by simple enrollment has never been the answer, and I have voiced my opinion in detail in the past as to what I think would be a much more fair way to classify programs based on graduation rates and number of special needs students. That way, you level the playing field without actually punishing people for succeeding.

 

In my mind, there is nothing wrong with teams being able to sustain success, as long as they are fairly classified. A 3a school that is only 3a because you are counting 50 special needs students and using enrollment figures that don't factor in a 15% dropout rate should probably be a 2a. Conversely, a 3a school with virtually no special needs students and a 2% dropout rate would probably get bumped to 4a. Once the playing field is leveled by classifying schools not just by the number of heads, but by the number of heads that are actually able to participate, then a lot of the competition problems would take care of themselves.

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I guess the reason I have always had a little bit of an issue with success factors is that we think in terms of "programs", and not the individual kids that make up those programs. In other words, is it fair to make one set of kids compete at a certain level based on what a totally different set of kids did in the past? Is success, if earned through hard work on a reasonably level playing field, really such a bad thing, to be discouraged and legislated against?

 

The key is the playing field has to be at least reasonably level, which it hasn't been in the past. Hence the current "Success Factor", which is just a bad but expedient solution.  I agree that classifying by simple enrollment has never been the answer, and I have voiced my opinion in detail in the past as to what I think would be a much more fair way to classify programs based on graduation rates and number of special needs students. That way, you level the playing field without actually punishing people for succeeding.

 

In my mind, there is nothing wrong with teams being able to sustain success, as long as they are fairly classified. A 3a school that is only 3a because you are counting 50 special needs students and using enrollment figures that don't factor in a 15% dropout rate should probably be a 2a. Conversely, a 3a school with virtually no special needs students and a 2% dropout rate would probably get bumped to 4a. Once the playing field is leveled by classifying schools not just by the number of heads, but by the number of heads that are actually able to participate, then a lot of the competition problems would take care of themselves.

If you based classification on your proposal, there would be a lot of urban schools that would go as many as 3 classes.  

 

You need to define "special needs".  All students with IEP, students only on certificate tract, include students with 504's?

 

Lots to consider.

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Too complicated, we are dealt with what we have, it was hard enough to get the success factor passed. 

 

Like life there are levels of success in everything, the schools and the players in them at those lower success levels, have to be playing football because they love it.

 

It takes a special kid to go out there every Friday knowing your likely going to get beat by 40 points by halftime, and knowing the other team easily could score 100 on you if they so choose.  Hard lessons learned most friday nights, those teams do not get much exposure or much of anything except of being a stat line for another team.

 

It is not easy for a successful team to play a team of much lower competition, you do not get the repetitions that a full game of same quality competition would give you. 

 

Not a perfect world and our sports show it, if you look at professional sports, they do as much as possible by changing the rules constantly to keep competitivness.  They know it attracts people to the stands and viewers, it makes the sport better.  HS football has yet to learn this, way behind the times, unfortunately it is about ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME not WE WE WE WE guess that is why if you drive thru a town or city you will NOT see large crowds at most HS football games, because most times the winner is decided before the kickoff.  The playoffs are fun as you finally get some competition in at least 1 game of each sectional.

 

HS football is not really much different, except it is an extracurricular activity, though at times used for other things than that. Lot of very good athletes never step onto a football field at those schools that are not competitive, if you take a good look many of them are successfull at other sports, as athletes concentrate on those.

 

Southern Indiana is full of schools who feel they cannot compete, so they concentrate on others sports and are very successfull at them. 

 

Just they way it is.  I think Tommy asked some good questions.

 

Your third to last paragraph only has two periods.  How is that possible?

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You don't have a Carmel without a North Central.  You don't have McCutcheon without Goshen.  You don't have New Pal without Indy Northwest, .

Just a general observation ... This is McCutcheon's first season in a decade where the number of losses didn't exceed the number of wins since 2004 when McCutcheon went 5-5 under O'Shea.

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The weight room is where a program turns it around.

 

Period.

 

Scheme, halftime speeches, etc.....ALL of that is ancillary to getting stronger and learning to compete. 

 

And those two things are best taught/learned in the weight room.

 

You know, people put a ton of emphasis on Friday night coaching.......really, that is secondary to Monday-Thursday coaching, and it all pales when compared to the preparation of Jan-July. 

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The weight room is where a program turns it around.

 

Period.

 

Scheme, halftime speeches, etc.....ALL of that is ancillary to getting stronger and learning to compete. 

 

And those two things are best taught/learned in the weight room.

 

You know, people put a ton of emphasis on Friday night coaching.......really, that is secondary to Monday-Thursday coaching, and it all pales when compared to the preparation of Jan-July. 

 

Yea, I'm going to have to disagree here.  Through no fault of their own, our coaches did not have a great working knowledge of kinesiology.  Between this and the lacking facilities, the weight program was simply archaic.  Most of the gains in strength and size were made on our own time.  We did pretty well.

 

Better athletes with better strength and conditioning programs get beaten by better football players all the time.  Lift all you want, these programs need much much more than time in the weight room.  

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Busco was 1-9 in 2003.  10-1, facing #1 Lewis Cass for the sectional title in '05.  We started those kids in the weightroom in 8th grade. 

 

The weightroom isn't just lifting.  It's about understanding that you sacrifice (early mornings or after school at that time) to enjoy success in the future.

 

That's football right there.

 

Most importantly, the wins and losses don't matter (in the big picture).  It's about teaching kids that hard work pays off, whether it is in a win, or a good game, or how they handle the ups and downs of life.

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With the schedule they play, North Central (Indy) is usually going to struggle in football.  When seven of your nine games in the regular season are against Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove, Lawrence Central, Lawrence North, Pike, and Warren Central, there just aren't too many wins in there.

 

Then you get Warren, LC, and LN in your Sectional.  Brutal.  Give any team that schedule and they are going to struggle...especially when they are already down.

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