Are we in a new 2-year Success Factor window?

[XStar]

Just curious how everything is going to work since they did the SF reclasses last off-season but not the attendance-based realignment.  My assumption is that they will do the attendance-based realignment after this season but hold off on the SF reclasses until after the 2022 football season.  But if they're ever going to sync the two back up, one will need to be a year early or a year late at some point and I hadn't read anything about that. 

[Lysander]

5 hours ago, XStar said:

Just curious how everything is going to work since they did the SF reclasses last off-season but not the attendance-based realignment.  My assumption is that they will do the attendance-based realignment after this season but hold off on the SF reclasses until after the 2022 football season.  But if they're ever going to sync the two back up, one will need to be a year early or a year late at some point and I hadn't read anything about that. 

That’s my understanding but I admit, I got that from other folks here.  I’ve not read anything official, though.

[1st_and_10]

15 hours ago, XStar said:

Just curious how everything is going to work since they did the SF reclasses last off-season but not the attendance-based realignment.  My assumption is that they will do the attendance-based realignment after this season but hold off on the SF reclasses until after the 2022 football season.  But if they're ever going to sync the two back up, one will need to be a year early or a year late at some point and I hadn't read anything about that. 

I believe (tough I am not 100%) this year is a 1 year cycle.  The SF's moved up/down and that was it.  I think all sectionals will be reset after this year with enrolment.  That means Webo/Chatard/LCC may move back down to their respective classes based on enrolment and not SF.  Again, I am not 100% sure this is correct but how I (and some others) have interpreted the IHSAA info.  At some point they have to shake this back out to get everything on the same 2 year schedule.  The IHSAA doesn't want to have to redo sectional yearly.

[oldtimeqb]

1 hour ago, 1st_and_10 said:

 The IHSAA doesn't want to have to redo sectional yearly.

I agree that this is the case. 

But I don’t think it would be a big deal to redo sectionals every year for football. Games are held on home fields, so there is no chance that a host school gets moved. Officials are assigned by the state. There is no qualification/seeding necessary. 
 

Redoing every year could also make a rolling SCF possible. That would make too much logic though. 

[XStar]

3 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

I believe (tough I am not 100%) this year is a 1 year cycle.  The SF's moved up/down and that was it.  I think all sectionals will be reset after this year with enrolment.  That means Webo/Chatard/LCC may move back down to their respective classes based on enrolment and not SF.  Again, I am not 100% sure this is correct but how I (and some others) have interpreted the IHSAA info.  At some point they have to shake this back out to get everything on the same 2 year schedule.  The IHSAA doesn't want to have to redo sectional yearly.

That was my thought as well about not wanting to reorganize the sectionals every year.  Just wasn't sure how they were planning to get back on that 2-year schedule.  

[Dolts]

https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/news%20media/2020-21/040221.Reclassification.pdf

[XStar]

2 hours ago, Dolts said:

https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/news%20media/2020-21/040221.Reclassification.pdf

Thanks.  That certainly addresses the issue.  

"Next year, the IHSAA will resume reclassification of team sports using certified enrollment figures from the 2021-22 school year for the next two-year cycle (2022-23, 2023-24). Tournament Success Factor points from the 2020-21 and 2021-22 tournament results will be applied toward that next two-year cycle."

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, a school that moved up due to Success Factor just for this year like Lafayette Central Catholic must at least win regional in 2021 to remain in 2A because they would have no SF points in 2A from the 2020 season when they were in 1A.  

Edited October 6, 2021 by XStar

[oldtimeqb]

33 minutes ago, XStar said:

Thanks.  That certainly addresses the issue.  

"Next year, the IHSAA will resume reclassification of team sports using certified enrollment figures from the 2021-22 school year for the next two-year cycle (2022-23, 2023-24). Tournament Success Factor points from the 2020-21 and 2021-22 tournament results will be applied toward that next two-year cycle."

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, a school that moved up due to Success Factor just for this year like Lafayette Central Catholic must at least win regional in 2021 to remain in 2A because they would have no SF points in 2A from the 2020 season when they were in 1A.  

So Chatard will drop back to 3A if Roncalli beats them in Sectional? (No 4A points)  My guess is that they will "keep" the 4 from 2020-21 state title run, even though they were at a lower class.  I could definitely be wrong though.     

[tango]

33 minutes ago, XStar said:

Thanks.  That certainly addresses the issue.  

"Next year, the IHSAA will resume reclassification of team sports using certified enrollment figures from the 2021-22 school year for the next two-year cycle (2022-23, 2023-24). Tournament Success Factor points from the 2020-21 and 2021-22 tournament results will be applied toward that next two-year cycle."

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, a school that moved up due to Success Factor just for this year like Lafayette Central Catholic must at least win regional in 2021 to remain in 2A because they would have no SF points in 2A from the 2020 season when they were in 1A.  

That is the way I read it.  And here's another question... Memorial was bumped up to 4A for the 2019 & 2020 cycle.  They won 4A state in 2019 (4 pts) but lost in sectional in 2020 (0 pts.), so they stay in 4A for the next cycle.  Is that cycle 2020-2021? Is that why this new provision was included in Rule 2.5 (SF) of the IHSAA By-Laws this year...?

 

In Team Sports, when Schools are subject to reclassification, a School’s reclassification shall be dependent on the School’s previous tournament series success; the Commissioner may, however, determine that a School’s previous tournament series success should be applied more often, or less often. 

 

 

[XStar]

Just now, oldtimeqb said:

So Chatard will drop back to 3A if Roncalli beats them in Sectional? (No 4A points)  My guess is that they will "keep" the 4 from 2020-21 state title run, even though they were at a lower class.  I could definitely be wrong though.     

Could be but my assumption is that points earned by Chatard at the 3A level shouldn't count towards 4A success.  

[XStar]

3 minutes ago, tango said:

That is the way I read it.  And here's another question... Memorial was bumped up to 4A for the 2019 & 2020 cycle.  They won 4A state in 2019 (4 pts) but lost in sectional in 2020 (0 pts.), so they stay in 4A for the next cycle.  Is that cycle 2020-2021? Is that why this new provision was included in Rule 2.5 (SF) of the IHSAA By-Laws this year...?

 

In Team Sports, when Schools are subject to reclassification, a School’s reclassification shall be dependent on the School’s previous tournament series success; the Commissioner may, however, determine that a School’s previous tournament series success should be applied more often, or less often. 

 

 

Another great question.

[tango]

1 minute ago, XStar said:

Could be but my assumption is that points earned by Chatard at the 3A level shouldn't count towards 4A success.  

That is correct.   

[Lysander]

Welp…….I’m even more confused.

[FarmerFran]

I say after this season, all teams bump back to their enrollment class and success factor resets for the next cycle. I will say that my opinion doesn't count for much though 🙂 

[fenderbender]

The way I read it:

We are in year 1 of a 2 year classification cycle.

Chatard is in 4A for the next two seasons.  If they win a sectional, they stay up.

Memorial won state in 4A two years ago, all they had to do was win a sectional to stay up.  They win a sectional in the next two years, they stay up.

Classification cycle is not a rolling two years.  It is weird and confusing because of that.

Another Example:

Two years ago, Roncalli won sectional and won state the next year.  5 points.  Even though they have a very strong chance to win back to back this year, if they did they would be in two different periods.  

[Dolts]

31 minutes ago, FarmerFran said:

I say after this season, all teams bump back to their enrollment class and success factor resets for the next cycle. I will say that my opinion doesn't count for much though 🙂 

If I was Pioneer I'd want to bump back to 1A also 😉

[jets]

Last year when we won Regional, we were told that we would stay in 3A for the next 2 years due to the success factor. That is all I know. 

Southridge's history with the SF

2A State Champs 2017, 2A semi-State 2018 = SF up to 3A

2019 knocked out of sectionals by HH, 2020 win 3A sectional and regional = stay up in 3A for 2 more years.

So, by my count, we now have students who weren't even in middle school that will be affected by this. I seriously don't get it...but whatever I guess. 

[Lysander]

My “assumption” is that classes will adjust next year based on enrollment.  “Success Factored” schools will remain bumped until the two year cycle has run its course (which was scheduled to be Fall ‘22/Spring’23). Two years from now (Fall ‘23), another adjustment will be made based on BOTH the actual enrollments AND the Success Factor.  

Admittedly, the reading of the IHSAA dictum has left me confused but I’m assuming this is what will happen….add that it seems the most sensible approach.

With that, we really should be on a rolling 2 year cycle as regards SF in my opinion (which really has nothing to do with my thoughts above).

[oldtimeqb]

30 minutes ago, jets said:

Last year when we won Regional, we were told that we would stay in 3A for the next 2 years due to the success factor. That is all I know. 

Southridge's history with the SF

2A State Champs 2017, 2A semi-State 2018 = SF up to 3A

2019 knocked out of sectionals by HH, 2020 win 3A sectional and regional = stay up in 3A for 2 more years.

So, by my count, we now have students who weren't even in middle school that will be affected by this. I seriously don't get it...but whatever I guess. 

Yes. According to the SF, winning one regional every two years is competitive enough to keep up Southridge in 3A. That stinks, IMO but they had to change the rule when it looked like Cathedral would fall back to 4A. 
 

I agree with @fenderbender ‘s assessment, however Memorial and Chatard would also need 2 points to stay up, i.e 2 sectionals or 1 regional in 2021 and 2022.

[superjay]

Taken from IHSAA website:

 Indianapolis Bishop Chatard will move up to Class 4A for 2021-22, 2022-23 due to Rule 2-5

It lists Western Boone and Lafayette Central Catholic with same result.  I think all 3 will stay up for next cycle.

link  Team Sport Success Totals 2019-20 2020-21.xlsx (ihsaa.org)

Edited October 7, 2021 by superjay

[BendNotBreak]

29 minutes ago, superjay said:

Taken from IHSAA website:

 Indianapolis Bishop Chatard will move up to Class 4A for 2021-22, 2022-23 due to Rule 2-5

It lists Western Boone and Lafayette Central Catholic with same result.  I think all 3 will stay up for next cycle.

link  Team Sport Success Totals 2019-20 2020-21.xlsx (ihsaa.org)

Good.... I like Lcc in 2A....  they could remain competive indefinitely in sec 37....

[fenderbender]

1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

Yes. According to the SF, winning one regional every two years is competitive enough to keep up Southridge in 3A. That stinks, IMO but they had to change the rule when it looked like Cathedral would fall back to 4A. 
 

I agree with @fenderbender ‘s assessment, however Memorial and Chatard would also need 2 points to stay up, i.e 2 sectionals or 1 regional in 2021 and 2022.

You got me. 

For some reason I had it in my head that they lowered it after the second or third year of having the success factor. 

Section (e) details that 1 point drops back down.

Edited October 7, 2021 by fenderbender

[JustRules]

If you are competing for sectional or regional champs in back to back years of a class you doing well in that class. Some of that has to do with the quality of teams in your sectional though. Not all sectionals are created equally.

[BendNotBreak]

7 minutes ago, JustRules said:

If you are competing for sectional or regional champs in back to back years of a class you doing well in that class. Some of that has to do with the quality of teams in your sectional though. Not all sectionals are created equally.

Ie... The 3A sec of Death ....  seems unlikly that Webo can remain 3A bein slotted ther.... which in turn could bump Lcc outta sec 37... unless of course WeBos enrollment climbs to 3A.... n round n round it gose..... 

[foxbat]

54 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Good.... I like Lcc in 2A....  they could remain competive indefinitely in sec 37....

I think LCC has a decent shot at a sectional tile in 2A if they continue to play the way they have the last couple of weeks.  Monrovia and Speedway will provide a couple of challenges there, but it'll be nice getting a couple of ranked or near-ranked opponents, if the ping pong balls bounce that way, early in the tourney.  Of course there's the "Be Careful What You Wish For" scenario, as I suspect the odd-on favorite coming out of Sectional 38 is going to be ranked Heritage Christian.