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Time To Seed The IHSAA Football Pairings?

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All in tournament with top 4 in 8 team sectionals seeded and random draw the bottom 4. Top 2 seeded in 4 team sectionals. Use records, head to head, and then Sagarin to determine seeding. Seeded teams would be home teams.

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18 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

I disagree 

We will agree to disagree, probably the first time a coach and an officials ever came to that conclusion, lol.

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Well as long as we are going to poke this Hornet nest again, lets just beat it with a broom.

First   If we do anything,  I agree seeding is the best option.     But  lets all remember that the IHSAA is just not football.  If we seed Football we also have to seed every team sport. ( boys and girls).  Lawyers would love to file a discrimination suit if they did not.

Seeding would have to be all teams in a sectional or you could still have a potential for two team with poor records playing each other while an 8-1 teams has to play a 9`0 team.  ex. 2 teams are 9-0  they get the 1 and 2 seed ,  there is also an 8-1  along with some 0-9 or 1-8 .  the blind draw could have the two lowers play and have a good 8-1 team play the seeded teams.  With the point of seeding to eliminate this. 

Also how would they determine who plays at home and who travels?

As far as eliminating part of the field based or record, don't think that would ever happen.  Could you see the IHSAA cutting basketball sections based on record.  Not in INDIANA!

 

I think the big picture is more then the IHSAA wants to deal with.

 

 

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I like the blind draw the way it is, if it just so happens that the 2 "best" teams in a sectional have to play in the first round, that shouldn't diminish the magnitude of that game regardless of which week it's played on.  Does it make a difference if that game is played 2 weeks later for the sectional championship?  Wouldn't it theoretically be the sectional championship game either way?  The last time I checked you don't get any extra "cool" points for being a sectional runner-up. 

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10 minutes ago, Giantbeareagle80 said:

 If we seed Football we also have to seed every team sport. ( boys and girls).  Lawyers would love to file a discrimination suit if they did not.

 

I am not so sure that is correct. Football was the only sport that used the cluster system and wrestling is somewhat seeded now. 

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Everybody always has to bash the lawyers....  

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16 minutes ago, tango said:

Everybody always has to bash the lawyers....  

:13_v:

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16 hours ago, pantherpride said:

I think sectional teams should have to earn their way in!  No way every team should just automatically get a sectional birth!!  OMO!

If this is the way you want to go with this, which schools in sectional 35 would you leave out of the tournament?  Because there would need to be districts or clusters made that determine entry or are you going to go with the best 192 and then classify them after the regular season into 6 classes?

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Posted (edited)

Conference champions get automatic post season berths and first round home playoff games as a reward for accomplishing something tangible and quantifiable during the regular season.  The balance of the 160 team field will be filled out thru a combination of metrics, similar to those used in Illinois, where teams know their specific playoff positioning by week.  Schools will be encouraged to improve their non conference schedules as they will be penalized for playing "down" in non con play as that will negatively impact their Sagarin and SOS metrics.

Example - 6A Crown Point plays 4A schools Lowell and Highland in non con this year.  The AD would change that in a hurry if it negatively impacted his playoff chances, and "if" it was important to his school that they be a playoff contender.  Thats a big "if" at Crown Point, in my view.

Yes, there will be some schools who miss the playoffs and cry foul.  Too bad.  

They will have the opportunity to improve their program, upgrade their schedule, and make staff changes if its important to them to make the playoffs.

"If."

I'm not sure there are 160 schools that really take football that seriously in Indiana.

 

Edited by DrivenT

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5 hours ago, Panther86 said:

Someone that is familiar with Illinois or some other state explain this to me because it looks like if its not all in then some teams will get screwed and left out like in the NCAA tourney every year.  You will have teams with identical records and one in and one not in.  Unless you have a set number of wins to make it and if that is the case then the number in the post season would vary from one year to the next.  I was in southern IL last year and heard the tourney draw on the radio and the commentators was going over just this issue.  Arguing that one team should have been in over another  And just because a team had a certain record they were sent up north to play instead of staying in the south.

The illinois system is regionally split into geographic quadrants and then seeded on point-totals.  The system groups participants into geographic quadrants to make travel more reasonable on school nights.

The tie-breakers are as follows:

Your team's record - if tied

Number of opponents' wins - if tied

Number of defeated opponents wins.  I don't know how they break ties after that.

They don't use a system employed by the NCAA where you have coaches and sportswriters voting for the best team.  Let's face it folks - sometimes you didn't do well enough to make the cut.  It should be an educational experience.  Life isn't always fair.  The earlier we teach our kids how to cope with that fact, the more prepared they will be for life after scholastic sports.

 

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Whoever wants the seeded format- post what your brackets would look like this year. As of week7 of course

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In our conference we seed the conference tournament. We do it before everyone plays everyone too.

Each School ranks it 1-8. The lowest number gets the #1 seed, and your all smart, you get it. Head to head and points difference breaks a tie.

Each school is emailed a list of who voted for what when the rankings are released, that way you know how everyone voted.

It is done by email, and it is fair. Why can there not be a system like that. Everyone knows about every team in their Sectional already. If you haven't been checking or looking then your lying anyway.

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15 hours ago, Dan Jones said:

 

The "blind draw" is stupid.  Always has been and always will be.  Renders the regular season completely meaningless, save for conference championships.  The blind draw is NOT fair.  Its a joke that Reitz and Central (arguably the 2 best teams in the south and possibly all of 4A) are playing in week 1 of the tournament.  Not for a sectional championship trophy.  Not when you'd garner your biggest crowd or your biggest media attention.  In the first round, when most schools in the state are on fall break. 

You seed the top 2 teams in each sectional.  Draw the rest of them out.  Proposed the entire format last year, for anyone who'd like to dig it up again.  It would be infinitly better then the broken format we have now.

And anyone who didn't think Cathedral and Roncalli would "draw" each other in the 1st round hasn't been paying attention.

This ^^^^     seed one and two based on sagarin.  rest is blind draw.

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Seed the teams.  I like the system we use in Texas.

But first, not every team even makes the playoffs.  Typically only the top 4 teams in each district (the TX equivalent of Indiana's sectionals)  play in the post season.  Most districts have 5 or 6 teams, there are a few outliers with 7.  In theory, this should eliminate most teams that have no business being there anyway.  Used to be only the top team went, then the #2 teams made a big enough fuss that they opened it up to them ( and I agree with that) and later it went to three.  It was still just three when we moved here from IN in 2006, and just the past 6-7 years it's been four teams.  Lots of the diehards down here think 4 is watering down the playoffs too much, and Texas being a big state needs to keep playoffs to a reasonable length of time, but I digress.....

Team 1 of , say district A plays team 4 of district B.  Team 2 of A plays team 3 of B, and so on.....  You get the picture.  Usually all but maybe a couple top seeds make it past round 1 and the low seeds with upset wins typically get knocked out in round 2 or 3 latest.  Since I've lived here, the teams playing in the final are the teams expected to be there from an elite group of 5 or 6.

Agree with teams having none or just a couple wins not needing another butt kicking.  Lots of the teams down here in that condition are just glad to have the season over with, and there's quite a few.

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"Example - 6A Crown Point plays 4A schools Lowell and Highland in non con this year.  The AD would change that in a hurry if it negatively impacted his playoff chances, and "if" it was important to his school that they be a playoff contender.  That's a big "if" at Crown Point, in my view."

This is why that idea is bad.  What if an Indy area school has Cathedral and New Pal on the schedule (4A w/o success factor) along with WL and Chatard who are both 3A.  By this logic they would be better off replacing them with other 6A schools who may not be as good, but they would get more credit for playing a worse team, just because the school is bigger.

Would basically be a start to the end of some conferences if one team is the biggest in it it would be beneficial for them to leave.  Also why would any school actually play a team in a smaller class if it could hurt thier playoff chances, the smaller schools would get dropped by the bigger ones, and could possible lead to increased travel times and expenses

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17 minutes ago, iubirdman said:

 

This is why that idea is bad.  What if an Indy area school has Cathedral and New Pal on the schedule (4A w/o success factor) along with WL and Chatard who are both 3A.  By this logic they would be better off replacing them with other 6A schools who may not be as good, but they would get more credit for playing a worse team, just because the school is bigger.

 

Your assumption - that larger schools would automatically shun smaller schools when scheduling - is not borne out by the experience in other states that have qualifying systems that take into account both won-lost record and schedule strength. For example, in the Ohio system, it would be more beneficial for a 6A team to play 7-0 New Pal, even though they’re “only” 4A, than it would be to play 1-6 Lake Central, who is 6A.

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So which team would help a middle of the road 3A-4A more, playing a 3-6 North Central team (6A) or a 9-0 North Central (1A).  Or a one better an 0-9 Perry Meridian team or the 9-0 NC team?

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Ok we have to crawl before we can walk fellas. We've tried qualifying for the playoffs here in Indiana and most would agree it was a disaster. The all-in is what it is. SEEDING is something that CAN be done and pretty simply at that. Wrestling figures it out every winter. You set a criteria- I would start with head-to-head...move to common opponents...then sagrin. It would at least give some value to a good regular season. The way we allow it to happen now is a joke. Really the only people in favor of blind draws are the lower end teams hoping for a few extra games...I know that sounds harsh but seems to be true. 

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23 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Always my favorite threads of this time of year..........

Rinse 

Repeat 

:13_v:

Nothing like beating a dead horse every year.

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11 minutes ago, jets said:

Ok we have to crawl before we can walk fellas. We've tried qualifying for the playoffs here in Indiana and most would agree it was a disaster. The all-in is what it is. SEEDING is something that CAN be done and pretty simply at that. Wrestling figures it out every winter. You set a criteria- I would start with head-to-head...move to common opponents...then sagrin. It would at least give some value to a good regular season. The way we allow it to happen now is a joke. Really the only people in favor of blind draws are the lower end teams hoping for a few extra games...I know that sounds harsh but seems to be true. 

I think you’re right. And seeding is the logical prelude to a qualification format. Because if you seed, people are going to see pretty quickly that playing those 1vs. 8 and 2 vs. 7 games is useless. After a few years of routinely seeing non-competitive games in the first round, it will dawn on people that cutting the field in half and expanding the regular season to 10games makes both the tournament and the regular season better.

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If the qualification system was so good, wouldn't we still have it??  Thought we left it because it was not working?

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13 minutes ago, bobref said:

I think you’re right. And seeding is the logical prelude to a qualification format. Because if you seed, people are going to see pretty quickly that playing those 1vs. 8 and 2 vs. 7 games is useless. After a few years of routinely seeing non-competitive games in the first round, it will dawn on people that cutting the field in half and expanding the regular season to 10games makes both the tournament and the regular season better.

This is why I don't think we will ever seed 1-8.  I foresee a scenario where you identify the top 2 and place them in opposite ends of a bracket.  A few coaches I know seem to like that idea.

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52 minutes ago, iubirdman said:

So which team would help a middle of the road 3A-4A more, playing a 3-6 North Central team (6A) or a 9-0 North Central (1A).  Or a one better an 0-9 Perry Meridian team or the 9-0 NC team?

Completely dependent on the actual format adopted. Could be either one.

6 minutes ago, iubirdman said:

If the qualification system was so good, wouldn't we still have it??  Thought we left it because it was not working?

The particular qualification formats we tried were not good. Too few teams qualified, meaning many worthwhile teams were left out. Having 50% of the teams make the playoffs doesn’t suffer from that flaw.

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Back in 1978 during the cluster system, our Highland team and Hammond High both went 10-0 and advanced to the playoffs.  A very good 9-1 Hobart team was left out.  I think Hobart's only loss that year was to Merrillville.  Im sure the Duneland people were quite upset that none of their teams made the playoffs.  They were coming off 3 straight state championships (Valpo 1975/Merrillville 1976/Portage 1977) and were living high off the hog.  The cluster system had the right idea, it just was not inclusive enough, per bobref's point.  

darn Hammond High and Tommie Franks.  It was 7-0 Hammond at halftime, and then Franks ran wild in the second half and they beat us 25-0.  Snider took out Hammond the following week.  

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What many people don’t think about is the effect seeding/qualification would have - not on the tournament itself - but on the regular season. The tournament is exciting now. But raising the stakes on all those regular season games will bring tournament-type excitement in weeks 6, 7, 8 & 9 that simply doesn’t exist now. It’s an opportunity to make Indiana football better. And that opportunity is not being utilized now, for no good reason.

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