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EasyEJay

Can a HS coach be fired for under-preforming?

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With more than half the teams in the state of Indiana done playing football and have moved on the basketball, some schools welcome the shift as they are just known for better more competitive basketball teams than football teams. However some schools are known or have a tradition of success in football and have seen an early 1st or 2nd round exit from the playoffs. Lets say for the purpose of discussion a school has enjoyed steady appearances in sectional title games, winning every few years and appearance in the regional maybe has a had a team  get even further again this is totally hypothetical I am not thinking of any current Indiana High School. Then upon getting a new coach they experience a few "down years" that turn into a more consistent result of 2 or 3 win seasons. 

However the coach just doesn't seem to want to give it up and move on? Since a majority of the High school HCs are teachers how does an AD go about this? If they are doing  everything right but Winning should they be asked/told to move on? Can or will and AD fire a football coach solely for the reason he can't win games? 

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Coaching at nearly every school is based on annual contracts.  If the admin of a school chooses not to offer a new annual contract they have that authority, and often don't need much "cause" to do so.  You'd hope that school admin wouldn't base their decision entirely on W/L record.  

Edited by Coach_G
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Coaching is considered an at-will position. An AD, in theory, does not need to have a reason to let a coach go. Coaching "contracts" are on a year to year basis in Indiana. Obviously, there are other factors in hiring and firing a coach. That is typically up to the administration at the school. Teaching is a completely separate component. Teaching and coaching do not go hand in hand.

Edited by CoachK_75
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Indiana don't you have to have a teaching license/be employed at the school in order to be a head coach? I don't think this is the case nationwide. I think because of this it's why you don't see the quality of coaches in Indiana that you see elsewhere. I believe in Texas there are some coaches who make 6 figures and it's a full-time job. Not saying it isn't the case here in Indiana but most of, if not all coaches are teachers first who get paid a stipend that probably isn't worth the actual amount of time that goes in to be a head coach. In other words, it's not about the money, it's about the love of the game and the love for watching kids grow and develop.

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38 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Indiana don't you have to have a teaching license/be employed at the school in order to be a head coach? I don't think this is the case nationwide. I think because of this it's why you don't see the quality of coaches in Indiana that you see elsewhere. I believe in Texas there are some coaches who make 6 figures and it's a full-time job. Not saying it isn't the case here in Indiana but most of, if not all coaches are teachers first who get paid a stipend that probably isn't worth the actual amount of time that goes in to be a head coach. In other words, it's not about the money, it's about the love of the game and the love for watching kids grow and develop.

You do not need to be a teacher to be a head coach

Nor employed at the school (besides coaching of course)

Edited by Von2Rov
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14 minutes ago, Von2Rov said:

You do not need to be a teacher to be a head coach

Or employed at the school (besides coaching of course)

But don't you need to hold a teaching license?

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Just now, Footballking16 said:

But don't you need to hold a teaching license?

No

There are probably schools that require it though...

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There have been cases where coaches have been let go for various reasons. Each area of the state has there own rumors of what happened to certain coaches. Sometimes the coach is the issue. Sometimes it is the AD or Principal. Sad to say it also the assistant coaches. An AD might not like a coach. A principal might feel that know better what is best for the school, community or team. I have seen assistant coaches go behind a head coach's back to say that could do a better job. Many reasons. Some not because of the product on the field. 

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15 minutes ago, Von2Rov said:

No

There are probably schools that require it though...

Sounds good and I stand corrected. I thought it was required to hold a teachers license and/or have an education degree in order to be a head coach which I thought could potentially restrict the applicant pool.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Sounds good and I stand corrected. I thought it was required to hold a teachers license and/or have an education degree in order to be a head coach which I thought could potentially restrict the applicant pool.

Pay typically restricts the applicant pool among many other things...

It's rare that guys have a job outside of education that they can earn a good living in, then have time to coach football at 3:00 every day.  It certainly happens, but it's somewhat rare. 

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If a coach is not up to par, and is a hindrance to the program, he or she should be asked to step down.

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I am well aware that teaching and coaching are two separate positions held by one person my overall questions is if a successful football program experiences a downward trend after the hiring of a new coach and that coach does not show any signs of wanted to step down, then can, should, and when does an AD say your done. 

If its as easy as year to year contracts then how do guys end of taken over successful programs and produce 4 or 5 straight 2-3 win season stay the HC? 

And pay true keeps non teachers but many people major in education and teach so they can coach football meaning you typically have a guy that cares and isn't overall concerned with money so im not buying a lack of applicants, there is always guys who want to try there hand at head coaching even great coaches had their 1st job. Plus if a guy is continually showing no signs of improvement what do you have to lose by giving someone else a shot? 

 

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16 minutes ago, EasyEJay said:

I am well aware that teaching and coaching are two separate positions held by one person my overall questions is if a successful football program experiences a downward trend after the hiring of a new coach and that coach does not show any signs of wanted to step down, then can, should, and when does an AD say your done. 

If its as easy as year to year contracts then how do guys end of taken over successful programs and produce 4 or 5 straight 2-3 win season stay the HC? 

And pay true keeps non teachers but many people major in education and teach so they can coach football meaning you typically have a guy that cares and isn't overall concerned with money so im not buying a lack of applicants, there is always guys who want to try there hand at head coaching even great coaches had their 1st job. Plus if a guy is continually showing no signs of improvement what do you have to lose by giving someone else a shot? 

 

But my point is, how many head coaches in Indiana make more than $70k a year when combining a teaching salary + stipend. I'm guessing not many. Most, if not all head coaches basically work 2 full time jobs. It's unrealistic for it to happen but I would imagine you'd start to see a) the quality of applicant pool increase and/or b) coaching turnover decrease if coaches were employed strictly to be a head coach. It's tough for a coach making $50k who also has to teach full-time. You're talking about 12-13 hour work days during the season.

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Indiana don't you have to have a teaching license/be employed at the school in order to be a head coach? I don't think this is the case nationwide. I think because of this it's why you don't see the quality of coaches in Indiana that you see elsewhere. I believe in Texas there are some coaches who make 6 figures and it's a full-time job. Not saying it isn't the case here in Indiana but most of, if not all coaches are teachers first who get paid a stipend that probably isn't worth the actual amount of time that goes in to be a head coach. In other words, it's not about the money, it's about the love of the game and the love for watching kids grow and develop.

 

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

But don't you need to hold a teaching license?

Why would someone down vote this? It was a genuine question.

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Nobody gets into teaching and or coaching for Money

 

NO ONE  

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16 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Nobody gets into teaching and or coaching for Money

 

NO ONE  

I agree 100%. Again, genuinely asking, how much of a burden does it become working essentially two full-time jobs without great pay? I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love to not only teach but coach as well who simply can't because of the man hours and time away from family, etc.

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Sounds good and I stand corrected. I thought it was required to hold a teachers license and/or have an education degree in order to be a head coach which I thought could potentially restrict the applicant pool.

Use to be the case, that was changed several years ago now though.  

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That helps my point no coach makes a living off of coaching, and don't hang on just for the money so why do AD's hang on to unsuccessful coaches and let their schools program fall on the cusp of mediocrity when they were once successful. 

I mean I get it every situation is different/ every AD is different  so yea..... no right answer but their are a number prefect examples happening right now in Indiana I'm sure we can all think of I can (I won't mention it on here, because I don't want to suggest im advocating for the firing of that schools specific coach)

at the end of the day I bring this up because its just sad to see schools with a good football tradition slip because a lazy or uncaring AD won't pull the trigger for reasons x,y, or z. 

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14 minutes ago, EasyEJay said:

That helps my point no coach makes a living off of coaching, and don't hang on just for the money so why do AD's hang on to unsuccessful coaches and let their schools program fall on the cusp of mediocrity when they were once successful. 

I mean I get it every situation is different/ every AD is different  so yea..... no right answer but their are a number prefect examples happening right now in Indiana I'm sure we can all think of I can (I won't mention it on here, because I don't want to suggest im advocating for the firing of that schools specific coach)

at the end of the day I bring this up because its just sad to see schools with a good football tradition slip because a lazy or uncaring AD won't pull the trigger for reasons x,y, or z. 

I understand your point. What I'm saying or advocating is that it is potentially tough to keep good coaches because of the burden of working essentially two full-time jobs without great pay. I understand coaches aren't in it for the money but I believe at times it's a huge burden when you're coaching and teaching full time on a $45k teaching salary and only getting a $5k coaching stipend (I know it's different for every school corporation/independent school but I bet most are comparable).

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32 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Nobody gets into teaching and or coaching for Money

 

NO ONE  

You and I have talked about not getting into education/coaching for the money, but...........

 

You ever see some of these super's contracts?  WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Coach Ellenwood

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I understand your point. What I'm saying or advocating is that it is potentially tough to keep good coaches because of the burden of working essentially two full-time jobs without great pay. I understand coaches aren't in it for the money but I believe at times it's a huge burden when you're coaching and teaching full time on a $45k teaching salary and only getting a $5k coaching stipend (I know it's different for every school corporation/independent school but I bet most are comparable).

And I agree with your point. Teachers and Coaches are both vastly under-paid many of us know this first hand. I agree that it is what pulls away coaches from schools coaches even admitted many times that they leave for bigger school because it paid more money and they had to think about family first and that absolutely is a fair point . However, if the coach replacing Coach whoever shows consistent underachievement I just curious why so many ADs(or school admin) seem to not care about putting the success of the program 1st and foremost evaluating tool of the coach. (But I could see where having that system for EVERY sport then an AD would hire multiple coaches in multiple sports every year and that would be a headache) I am biased but I think football teams success should be a priority for a schools that has some type of tradition  IMO. 

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1 minute ago, EasyEJay said:

And I agree with your point. Teachers and Coaches are both vastly under-paid many of us know this first hand. I agree that it is what pulls away coaches from schools coaches even admitted many times that they leave for bigger school because it paid more money and they had to think about family first and that absolutely is a fair point . However, if the coach replacing Coach whoever shows consistent underachievement I just curious why so many ADs(or school admin) seem to not care about putting the success of the program 1st and foremost evaluating tool of the coach. (But I could see where having that system for EVERY sport then an AD would hire multiple coaches in multiple sports every year and that would be a headache) I am biased but I think football teams success should be a priority for a schools that has some type of tradition  IMO. 

I think you answered your own question. I think many "underachieving" coaches are retained simply because there isn't a plethora of quality applicants to replace them with. I believe there are plenty of qualified coaches in this state, who may not even work in the education, who don't coach simply because the burden of having to do two full time jobs for the price of one.

Serious question here for the coaching community, how many, if any, high school coaches are strictly head coaches as a full-time salary occupation? 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I think you answered your own question. I think many "underachieving" coaches are retained simply because there isn't a plethora of quality applicants to replace them with. I believe there are plenty of qualified coaches in this state, who may not even work in the education, who don't coach simply because the burden of having to do two full time jobs for the price of one.

Serious question here for the coaching community, how many, if any, high school coaches are strictly head coaches as a full-time salary occupation? 

isnt this what teacher/coaches are already doing.....working 2 full-time jobs for the price of 1?

Edited by Coach Ellenwood

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I think you answered your own question. I think many "underachieving" coaches are retained simply because there isn't a plethora of quality applicants to replace them with. I believe there are plenty of qualified coaches in this state, who may not even work in the education, who don't coach simply because the burden of having to do two full time jobs for the price of one.

Serious question here for the coaching community, how many, if any, high school coaches are strictly head coaches as a full-time salary occupation? 

Not to deflect from the question you ask..... but I did say why hang to an underachieving coach out of fear for a worse coach? Every great coach has to get their 1st job, true you may not get a coach in to lead a team to 8 plus wins and a sectional title appearance right away, but I would think 2 years in you could see an improvement if not 2 more years to get it going but after 4 years of 2 -3 wins per year why not give another new person a chance?  

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