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komets3001

Snider vs Carmel Regional Championship

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8 minutes ago, football_is_life said:

The punt was around the 1:05:00 mark if you’d like to take a look. 

I'm not an official, but that one seems pretty obvious. I didn't see a block. The Carmel punter kicked it and the Snider player ran into the kickers leg. I do admit its very bad luck for Snider how it ended up and was not intentional on the players part, but on the face of it from video certainly to this fan it seems like a proper call. 

I'd love to hear bobrefs take. 

Edited by Olympian99
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5 hours ago, CavemenFB38 said:

That's definitely a penalty.

That’s a foul 100% of the time.

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1 hour ago, Olympian99 said:

I'm not an official, but that one seems pretty obvious. I didn't see a block. The Carmel punter kicked it and the Snider player ran into the kickers leg. I do admit its very bad luck for Snider how it ended up and was not intentional on the players part, but on the face of it from video certainly to this fan it seems like a proper call. 

I'd love to hear bobrefs take. 

You said it was "not intentional." Doesn't that mean it should have been called "running" into the kicker and not "roughing?" If they called running into the kicker, Snider would have gotten the ball back, I believe.

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6 hours ago, psaboy said:

I felt the Personal foul or unsportsmanlike on France when he twisted the Carmel the player to the ground was a bad call. He didn't "pile drive " the kid, just looked like the way the motion of the tackle, flag should have stayed in pocket.

I looked at the video. That is a dead ball personal foul for unnecessary roughness 100% of the time. Keep in mind that one of the specific examples of a “defenseless player,” is “A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped.” Thus, what we have here is a defenseless player getting his head slammed into the turf. Easy call.

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10 minutes ago, bobref said:

I looked at the video. That is a dead ball personal foul for unnecessary roughness 100% of the time. Keep in mind that one of the specific examples of a “defenseless player,” is “A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped.” Thus, what we have here is a defenseless player getting his head slammed into the turf. Easy call.

Might as well get rid of football as we know it and replace it with flag football.

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I’ve now looked at the punt play. That’s roughing, not running into, the kicker. If you’re going to hit the kicker while attempting to block the punt, you better get the ball, too. Here, although the contact is on the kicking leg, which is not considered as serious as contact on the plant leg, the severity of the contact warrants a personal foul. The kicker never did anything to give the impression he was going to do anything other than kick the ball.  That makes it roughing.

29 minutes ago, BTF said:

Might as well get rid of football as we know it and replace it with flag football.

Yeah. And we should make the QBs wear tutus. And while you’re at it, get off of my lawn.

Edited by bobref
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18 minutes ago, bobref said:

100% of the time

I wish I had a dollar for every time you've said this. If you watch the entire video, you'll conclude that every call is accurate 100% OF THE TIME.

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8 minutes ago, BTF said:

I wish I had a dollar for every time you've said this. If you watch the entire video, you'll conclude that every call is accurate 100% OF THE TIME.

It would probably be more helpful to the dialogue if you would describe why you think I was wrong on the two plays I reviewed.

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3 minutes ago, bobref said:

It would probably be more helpful to the dialogue if you would describe why you think I was wrong on the two plays I reviewed.

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that the "roughing the kicker" penalty was unfortunate and not intentional. Why was that not "running" into the kicker. And if it WAS running into the kicker, I believe Snider would have gotten the ball back. It was 4th and 11

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6 minutes ago, BTF said:

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that the "roughing the kicker" penalty was unfortunate and not intentional. Why was that not "running" into the kicker. And if it WAS running into the kicker, I believe Snider would have gotten the ball back. It was 4th and 11

As I explained above. The contact was, in my judgment and in the judgment of that referee, severe enough to move it from the “running into” category to the “roughing” category. It’s all about the severity of the contact, that is, its potential for injury. We are taught “when in doubt, it’s roughing.”

Edited by bobref

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10 minutes ago, BTF said:

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that the "roughing the kicker" penalty was unfortunate and not intentional. Why was that not "running" into the kicker. And if it WAS running into the kicker, I believe Snider would have gotten the ball back. It was 4th and 11

Bobref correct me if I'm wrong but intent really has nothing to do with a play like this.  Does anyone really "intentionally" rough or run into the kicker?

Edited by CavemenFB38

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Just now, CavemenFB38 said:

Bobref correct me if I'm wrong but intent really has nothing to do with a play like this.  Does anyone really "intentionally" rough the kicker?

Intent is not a factor. It’s all judged by an objective standard.

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1 hour ago, bobref said:

Intent is not a factor. It’s all judged by an objective standard.

The problem with objective standards is that they are subject to the will and opinion of terribly unreliable human brains, which are wired to different humans.  

Edited by panamabob
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4 hours ago, bobref said:

I’ve now looked at the punt play. That’s roughing, not running into, the kicker. If you’re going to hit the kicker while attempting to block the punt, you better get the ball, too. Here, although the contact is on the kicking leg, which is not considered as serious as contact on the plant leg, the severity of the contact warrants a personal foul. The kicker never did anything to give the impression he was going to do anything other than kick the ball.  That makes it roughing.

Yeah. And we should make the QBs wear tutus. And while you’re at it, get off of my lawn.

I like reading BobRef's opinion and really respect all that he has done for the game and his judgement is usually spot on. I disagree on this one 1000%. Once the kicker dropped the ball and started to move to his right it was not certain that he was going to kick it. The defender coming in is trying to tackle him like he would a runner. I've asked several officials and everyone that I've asked says "no call". It is a bang bang call and in real time you have to make a decision but once he drops the ball like that and starts to move it's gonna have to be really late to be a foul. This doesn't, to me look like a foul. 

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10 hours ago, Olympian99 said:

Getting to state (winning a semi-state) alone in one cycle is enough to stay in your current class. That or a sectional and regional title keep you in current class. So if Snider were to win Regional next season they would be 6A by rule for two additional seasons. 

I will expect Snider will ask to stay in 6A in 2019 if they don't qualify.

 

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15 hours ago, komets3001 said:

The more I think about this game the more pissed off I get. I thought Snider was penalized a lot, but Carmel was actually penalized more. Carmel had 13 penalties and Snider had 11 penalties. I would say half of the penalties for both teams were hogwash. I can tell you both coaching staffs were upset with the officiating. While I will not blame the Snider loss on the officials, I will say this was a horribly officiated game for both teams. Very sad to see in any game much less a regional championship game.

The calls were not hogwash... The game was a well officiated game. Snider has no one to blame but themselves.

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10 hours ago, McFly said:

The calls were not hogwash... The game was a well officiated game. Snider has no one to blame but themselves.

Ah, would never expect any support from Kokomo fan, Maybe see ya'all again in playoffs in a few years. I miss those 30-40 point blow out games against those mildkats

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15 minutes ago, MuleDriver said:

What does snider return next season?

A bunch of fans with a chip on their shoulder.

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31 minutes ago, Gonzoron said:

A bunch of fans with a chip on their shoulder.

Good one, I like :)

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48 minutes ago, MuleDriver said:

What does snider return next season?

They will have to reload. They lose Haupert (QB) and Covington (RB), not sure who QB will be, Barnes maybe and will be Jr next year. They have a good Jr. RB to step up next year, Lockett, plus two So. RB for back up that have potential.  Good TE (Dellinger) Two good O-line back & WR (Ledo). I think they lose a lot on D, With Hoover FS as main returning. If he recovers from knee injury, he should be getting D1 offers. I heard JV team went undefeated, so potential is there for a good team, probably not as good as this years, unless they get some key transfers. 

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1 hour ago, MuleDriver said:

What does snider return next season?

Snider will reload as usual. And as usual, will test Carmel in the regionals. But this year would have been the year for Snider to contend for a 6a championship.

50 minutes ago, Gonzoron said:

A bunch of fans with a chip on their shoulder.

Lol, I like that one as well. Anyone reading this thread would come to that conclusion.  For this fan, it's frustrating to watch Snider lose two years in a row (Westfield last year) to a team they should have beaten. So before I'm attacked for that statement, let me just say this...................normally, I concede that Snider lost to a better team. However, I will not concede to that with regards to 1986, 1997, *2004, 2016, & 2017. So  since 1986, I will concede that Snider lost to the better team 26 other times.

*I believe Snider was as good as, but not better than Warren Central when they played Thanksgiving weekend. However, with a healthy Miquale Lewis (games 1 through 9), I felt like they had the best team in Indiana.

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2 hours ago, psaboy said:

probably not as good as this years, unless they get some key transfers. 

Who are they looking to recruit?

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1 hour ago, Gonzoron said:

Who are they looking to recruit?

Any body that wants to play for SAC contender. 

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2 hours ago, BTF said:

Snider will reload as usual. And as usual, will test Carmel in the regionals. But this year would have been the year for Snider to contend for a 6a championship.

Lol, I like that one as well. Anyone reading this thread would come to that conclusion.  For this fan, it's frustrating to watch Snider lose two years in a row (Westfield last year) to a team they should have beaten. So before I'm attacked for that statement, let me just say this...................normally, I concede that Snider lost to a better team. However, I will not concede to that with regards to 1986, 1997, *2004, 2016, & 2017. So  since 1986, I will concede that Snider lost to the better team 26 other times.

*I believe Snider was as good as, but not better than Warren Central when they played Thanksgiving weekend. However, with a healthy Miquale Lewis (games 1 through 9), I felt like they had the best team in Indiana.

I would be interesting in knowing how many penalties Snider had last year at Westfield, did they lose their composer after they went up 10-0? I know the big difference in game was the Westfield's special teams, but did Snider go thug again after taking lead and getting dumb flags such as unsportsmanlike like, personal foul, roughing, etc?

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