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Snider vs Carmel Regional Championship

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Gonzoron you seem to be pretty confident ! I guess you fall n line with the majority, that think Giants are invincible.

Edited by southend

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6 minutes ago, southend said:

Gonzoron you seem to be pretty confident ! I guess you fall n line with the majority, that think Giants are invincible.

You asked if anyone thought Carmel would win 6A, I personally don't think they will. I don't really think any of the teams are invincible. They all still have to play the games.

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1 hour ago, INDHOF03 said:

Before this year, I have seen Carmel come into Ft. Wayne from 2013 - 2016 and just blow the doors off of the 6A teams from this area. I have had family on the previous 4 teams of recent and I believe many on this board are missing  the critical points of this game...Snider went toe-toe with one of the best programs in the state and should be proud of a great season. It was fun to see for sure.  It doesn't matter if everyone is saying this Carmel team is down or that they are the 3rd-4th best team in the MIC. The digest is great for sound-offs and hate mail type dialogue but most "good" games come down to 1-3 plays. If you understand one thing about football you must understand that...The roughing the kicker play was one play for sure and maybe should not have been called... the late fumble was another big play. In my opinion... the punt/safety was the biggest. A big part of these close games are Special Teams and it cost Snider the game...Right there are the biggest 3 plays of the game...As for the penalties...even though Carmel committed more they were probably even in terms of impact on the game. The most obvious call was the play where the Carmel kid gets slammed on his head. That being argued is a discredit and exemplifies a fan vs someone who understands where the game of football is today. I will say again that Snider should be proud of their seasons and that they will most likely get another shot at Carmel next season. 

**On a side note question.. to the official on the site. If a player in High School has more than 1 personal foul, does that player get disqualified? For example, if the player flagged for slamming the kid on his head had another personal foul would he be ejected in high school?

Blew doors off of Carroll and Homestead, not Snider. 

5 minutes ago, psaboy said:

Blew doors off of Carroll and Homestead, not Snider. 

And yes, I know 2017 is this year. Snider blows the doors off those two teams as well, sometimes twice in a saeson

Edited by psaboy

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43 minutes ago, BTF said:

Very good post.

Regarding the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. If a kid's feet come off the ground, does that automatically qualify? I've watched several replays and it doesn't look to me like he INTENTIONALLY lifted him up and slammed him to the ground. It looked to me like he was just trying to pull him back. Isn't that what we do in football? Pull back and not push forward? As he was PULLING him back, his legs came off the ground, nothing intentional about it. Am I the only one on the forum who is sticking up for this kid? Maybe I'm off base, but that's my version of what happened.

Give it up! What part of “defenseless player” do you not understand? Who cares whether someone’s feet came off the ground? This is football, not sumo wrestling. When his forward progress is obviously stopped, let him go.

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16 minutes ago, bobref said:

Give it up! What part of “defenseless player” do you not understand? Who cares whether someone’s feet came off the ground? This is football, not sumo wrestling. When his forward progress is obviously stopped, let him go.

Was actually looking forward to a response from Falconsfbref, but thanks anyway. He seems to have a better grasp on the game than you do. I still think you'd be better suited to officiate  flag football games. Oh, and you forgot to say "100 percent of the time."

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1 minute ago, BTF said:

Was actually looking forward to a response from Falconsfbref, but thanks anyway. He seems to have a better grasp on the game than you do. I still think you'd be better suited to officiate  flag football games. Oh, and you forgot to say "100 percent of the time."

😁😁😁😁

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2 hours ago, INDHOF03 said:

**On a side note question.. to the official on the site. If a player in High School has more than 1 personal foul, does that player get disqualified? For example, if the player flagged for slamming the kid on his head had another personal foul would he be ejected in high school?

BTW, on the video, it appears the official called it Unsportsmanlike (extended both arms).

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1 minute ago, gindie said:

BTW, on the video, it appears the official called it Unsportsmanlike (extended both arms).

Unsportsmanlike is a NON Contact foul.  It had to be a PF.   Just for clarification.....  (Rules ...rules...kinda know them) 

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5 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

Unsportsmanlike is a NON Contact foul.  It had to be a PF.   Just for clarification.....  (Rules ...rules...kinda know them) 

OK, then I'm a little confused.  I went back and looked again after your reply.  The official appeared to make the PF signal in front of his chest and extended both arms fully to the sides (like a UC), and then pointed towards Snider.

Is that an established sequence of signals?

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NO.....

He made an incorrect signal.  Should have made a SLASH with one arm hitting the other (PF).  

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1 hour ago, Yuccaguy said:

NO.....

He made an incorrect signal.  Should have made a SLASH with one arm hitting the other (PF).  

For whatever reason he gave both signals??? Not sure why but it was confusing. That unsportsmanlike signal should not of been given. 

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Just now, Huge football fan said:

For whatever reason he gave both signals??? Not sure why but it was confusing. That unsportsmanlike signal should not of been given. 

It happens.  I have done it also.   DOH!!!!  

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13 hours ago, Gonzoron said:

Looks like it.

 

That's my opinion.

 

They didn't. Discipline did.

 

No

Snider used to be one of the most disciplined programs around.  What has changed?

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17 hours ago, BTF said:

That's what I was thinking. Thanks for your insight.

Why?

I realize we are talking about HS football...but if you watch NCAA and NFL, they rarely call roughing the kicker.  If you notice, the punter will get contacted and even pushed down with his kicking leg extended.  They always call this running into the kicker.  The only time they call roughing is if the contact is made to the plant leg when kicking leg is extended.  That is why I think that foul should have been running into.  Plus, for the kicker to have dropped the ball, ran a step or two then kicked....the D gets a little more leeway because of the now "rugby style" kick.  

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16 minutes ago, falconsfbref said:

I realize we are talking about HS football...but if you watch NCAA and NFL, they rarely call roughing the kicker.  If you notice, the punter will get contacted and even pushed down with his kicking leg extended.  They always call this running into the kicker.  The only time they call roughing is if the contact is made to the plant leg when kicking leg is extended.  That is why I think that foul should have been running into.  Plus, for the kicker to have dropped the ball, ran a step or two then kicked....the D gets a little more leeway because of the now "rugby style" kick.  

Do you officiate Indiana High School football games using NCAA and NFL rules?

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19 minutes ago, Gonzoron said:

Do you officiate Indiana High School football games using NCAA and NFL rules?

Certainly not. And by the way, it is certainly not true that it is always "running into" when contact is on the kicking leg and not the plant leg. That is a useful guideline when contact is relatively slight. That's not the case with this play.

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The discussion about the PF and contact with the kicker show that many rules are not black and white. And that shouldn't the goal either. Different philosophies can come into play and some are in conflict with each other.

Ultimately judgment is the biggest factor and the guy or gal on the field who is paid to make that judgment has to make that decision based on what he or she sees. It doesn't make the call right or wrong. Many times different calls on the same play could be supported.

If you are in a situation with a supervisor or grader (Indiana HS football does not have this), they may give a grade of correct call or incorrect call or marginal or too technical, but ultimately that's their judgment as well. You are seeing some of the normal banter about the same play here that we see within crews or at association meetings.

The only thing I can say with almost 100% positivity is the call was not made to intentionally favor one team or the other. The judgments were made in a vacuum of that particular play or the temperature of that game at the time.

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11 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

Wow. Carmel moves on. And so should this thread.

Not yet, the adrenaline rush is still pretty strong here. But it was a big game, in the Three Rivers Area. 

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6 hours ago, BisonUmpire said:

The discussion about the PF and contact with the kicker show that many rules are not black and white. And that shouldn't the goal either. Different philosophies can come into play and some are in conflict with each other.

Ultimately judgment is the biggest factor and the guy or gal on the field who is paid to make that judgment has to make that decision based on what he or she sees. It doesn't make the call right or wrong. Many times different calls on the same play could be supported.

If you are in a situation with a supervisor or grader (Indiana HS football does not have this), they may give a grade of correct call or incorrect call or marginal or too technical, but ultimately that's their judgment as well. You are seeing some of the normal banter about the same play here that we see within crews or at association meetings.

The only thing I can say with almost 100% positivity is the call was not made to intentionally favor one team or the other. The judgments were made in a vacuum of that particular play or the temperature of that game at the time.

I agree...I believe they made the calls in no favor of one team or the other.  In fact, they probably made the best judgment they could.  I agree, judgment is and always will be subjective and we as officials do our best.  We are always looking for more officials, so some can sign up and join the ranks.  

 

The only thing I will comment on is the supervisor comment.  The IHSAA does employ observers and I believe many/all?? crews have probably been observed in the past 2 years.  I will just say that some of the comments made by the observer, on behalf of the IHSAA, are not being followed by the crews still working.  There were a couple things that our observer said that even crews not working are not doing.   I only say this because I would like nothing more than to see consistency across the state.  No reason a crew from Evansville should officiate mechanically different than those in Lafayette or Indianapolis.  I think the steps to make this happen are in progress, but we have a long way to go......

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6 hours ago, BisonUmpire said:

The discussion about the PF and contact with the kicker show that many rules are not black and white. And that shouldn't the goal either. Different philosophies can come into play and some are in conflict with each other.

Ultimately judgment is the biggest factor and the guy or gal on the field who is paid to make that judgment has to make that decision based on what he or she sees. It doesn't make the call right or wrong. Many times different calls on the same play could be supported.

If you are in a situation with a supervisor or grader (Indiana HS football does not have this), they may give a grade of correct call or incorrect call or marginal or too technical, but ultimately that's their judgment as well. You are seeing some of the normal banter about the same play here that we see within crews or at association meetings.

The only thing I can say with almost 100% positivity is the call was not made to intentionally favor one team or the other. The judgments were made in a vacuum of that particular play or the temperature of that game at the time.

My two cents.... The white hat made the correct call on the "Roughing the Kicker" play.

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10 hours ago, panamabob said:

Snider used to be one of the most disciplined programs around.  What has changed?

I'm guessing you are going back at least 6-7 years ago, Snider has had this issue for many years. It could be different coaching decisions/actions from Issac's to Tippmann. I just throwing that out there. If it was me,  if kid has unsportsmanlike or PF flag issues, he goes on bench for a quarter, half, etc no matter how good the kid is.

Edited by psaboy

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Oh please close this thread.    Just start a new one,  about different philosophies....  ENOUGH.  

AND neither is different.    Only the kids changed. 

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