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Seeding pretty much not happening

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I wonder what seeds all the teams would have been who made it to state?

B Davis, CE, Pioneer all #1

what about Brebeuf? Penn?

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Penn would have probably been a 5 or 6 seed in North section behind: Snider , Lafayette Jeff, Valpo and Carmel and maybe Homestead?

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Am I missing something or does Cox’s rationale seem to make very little sense?  All of his points were based on his conjecture/opinion.  There was nothing concrete or measurable that supports any of his statements.  I would in fact argue that there are plenty of examples that demonstrate seeding a tournament improves the quality of the product.  Don’t understand this simpleton and archaic way of thinking.  Why does the IHSAA allow seeding in wrestling sectionals then?  

Is there another example in the entire country at any level of american football where the post-season tournament is not seeded?  Honest question.

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Sense had never come into the discussion on the subject with the powers that be. Cox just throws out illogical niceties whenever explaining why things won't change. 

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"...If fans want seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams, I have no use for that at all." - Bobby Cox

Nobody wants seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams! They beat them anyway no matter whether it's the first round of sectionals or the sectional championship! Commissioner Cox is so out of touch.

3 hours ago, psaboy said:

Penn would have probably been a 5 or 6 seed in North section behind: Snider , Lafayette Jeff, Valpo and Carmel and maybe Homestead?

No way. They were no lower than a 3 seed. Personally, I would've had Snider as the 1, Penn as the 2, and Carmel as the 3.

 

Edited by Frozen Tundra

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6 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

"...If fans want seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams, I have no use for that at all." - Bobby Cox

Nobody wants seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams! They beat them anyway no matter whether it's the first round of sectionals or the sectional championship! Commissioner Cox is so out of touch.

No way. They were no lower than a 3 seed. Personally, I would've had Snider as the 1, Penn as the 2, and Carmel as the 3.

 

This may be a big or small part of the stance against seeding... People are already arguing seeds when we don't even have them!!!  :13_v:

9 hours ago, scarletknights said:

Am I missing something or does Cox’s rationale seem to make very little sense?  All of his points were based on his conjecture/opinion.  There was nothing concrete or measurable that supports any of his statements.  I would in fact argue that there are plenty of examples that demonstrate seeding a tournament improves the quality of the product.  Don’t understand this simpleton and archaic way of thinking.  Why does the IHSAA allow seeding in wrestling sectionals then?  

Is there another example in the entire country at any level of american football where the post-season tournament is not seeded?  Honest question.

Yes, it is his opinion that keeping this format is best for everyone involved.  Unfortunately, many disagree, but if you've ever met the guy, he means nothing but great things for the players, coaches, and refs.  Sometimes what is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right. 

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6 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

"...If fans want seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams, I have no use for that at all." - Bobby Cox

Nobody wants seeding just to see big teams beat the little teams! They beat them anyway no matter whether it's the first round of sectionals or the sectional championship! Commissioner Cox is so out of touch.

No way. They were no lower than a 3 seed. Personally, I would've had Snider as the 1, Penn as the 2, and Carmel as the 3.

 

That isn't the issue.  NOBODY wants to see two 9 - 0 teams playing each other in the first round of ANY sectional.  THAT, is what nobody wants, Mr. Commish.

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So I really don't understand the arguing point by Bobby Cox on people wanting to see early round blowouts by seeding because if he hasn't noticed they're already happening with the current playoff format. Before posting the next part to I want to say that this is in no way meant to embarrass any teams, players or coaches, I'm just trying to prove the point that Bobby Cox's argument against seeding for the purpose of attempting to limit first round blowouts is asinine. 

Now what one person may consider a blowout can be very different from what another person would but for the sake of argument I went ahead and considered a blowout any time a winning team scored 40+ points while also beating their opponent by 30+. Take into consideration as well that there were four games I removed that while the winning team did score 40+ they beat their opponent anywhere from 25-29+ points which while some, including myself, would still consider a blowout I wanted to make sure I stood by the blowout qualifications I set.

Trinity Lutheran 60 Dugger Union 6
Columbus East 60 Seymour 0
Griffith 55 Hammond 0
Lowell 41 Gary West 0
New Prairie 56 South Bend Washington 0
Mishawaka 71 South Bend Clay 0
South Bend Riley 49 Kankakee Valley 10
NorthWood 54 DeKalb 3
Fort Wayne Wayne 62 Columbia City 20
Fort Wayne Dwenger 41 Fort Wayne South 7
Mississinewa 65 Frankfurt 20
Mooresville 61 Connersville  13
New Castle 41 Richmond 0
Greenwood 43 Beech Grove 7
Silver Creek 42 Madison 7
East Central 48 Edgewood 6
Wheeler 45 Hammond Clark 14
West Lafayette 79 Benton Central  7
Southmont 49 Crawfordsville 7
Knox 49 Fairfield 7
Chatard 62 Indy Northwest 6
Indian Creek 44 Indy Manual 8
Ritter 55 Rushville 14
Sullivan 34 West Vigo 0
North Harrison 50 Corydon Central 14
Gibson Southern 63 Pike Central 6
Vincennes Lincoln 60 Mount Vernon (Posey) 28
Gary Roosevelt 52 Hammond Noll 6
Central Noble 56 Whitko 8
Woodlan  68 Prairie Heights 0
Eastbrook 56 Eastern (Greentown) 7
Rensselaer Central 66 Taylor 0
Frankton 67 Madison-Grant 8
Shenandoah 60 Northeastern 8
Tipton 49 North Putnam 7
Park Tudor 52 Indy Washington 0
Eastern Pekin 59 Switzerland County 21
Paoli 42 Clarksville 0
Providence 48 Perry Central  15
Southridge 46 South Spencer 7
Mater Dei 49 Telly City 6
Culver 49 West Central 14
North Miami 57 South Newton 16
Pioneer 55 Carroll (Flora) 21
Southwood 70 Freemont 14
Clinton Prairie 74 Anderson Prep 20
Monroe Central 57 Clinton Central 6
Sheridan 50 Tri-Central 8
Tri 60 Oldenburg 14
Indy Lutheran 54 Cambridge City Lincoln 16
Fountain Central  54 Covington 13
Eastern Greene 57 North Daviess 0
Tecumseh 54 Wood Memorial 0  
Brownsburg 56 Perry Meridian 3
Columbus North 56 Jeffersonville 14
McCutcheon 42 Huntington North 7
New Palestine 54 Muncie Central 14
Decatur Central 47 Indy Tech 8

Now for those of you who don't want to count that's a total of 58 games, which out of roughly 160 opening Sectional games means that over a third of the games are already blowouts. Now I know Bobby Cox would say if Sectionals were seeding that percentage would probably be higher, I could argue that only 2 games (1v8 and 2v7) would really have that possibility and anything can happen on any given night, I'm sure there would be years with more and less than 58 "blowout" games.

The bottom line is that the argument against seeding Sectionals because of early blowouts is a red herring. If the goal is to prevent this then either create the mercy rule (Muda just woke up from his keyboard with the keys imprinted on his face) which I hate, I have seen in person how that actually hurt a team who was making a comeback but ran out of time because half of a quarter ran off the clock. I am in no way for the continuing of the wussification of America. Or, create a playoff system that eliminates teams, which I am not in favor for either because I have seen many of my coaching buddies in Ohio who have gotten screwed through a qualification system. 

I love the all in tournament, think it is the best way and never want to see that change. But we need the best teams playing each other in the later tournament games. In Bobby Cox's opinion if that makes me somebody who wants to see kids' dreams demolished in early game blowouts then so be it, the high school football fan in me who wants to see the sport in his state (which has been extremely progressive in the last decade) continue to grow and mature thinks this is the next logical step to make Indiana High School Football more relevant on the national stage.

 

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10 minutes ago, El Tigre said:
Mississinewa 65 Frankfort 20
       

 

Fixed the typo for you.

12 minutes ago, El Tigre said:

The bottom line is that the argument against seeding Sectionals because of early blowouts is a red herring. If the goal is to prevent this then either create the mercy rule (Muda just woke up from his keyboard with the keys imprinted on his face) which I hate, I have seen in person how that actually hurt a team who was making a comeback but ran out of time because half of a quarter ran off the clock. I am in no way for the continuing of the wussification of America. Or, create a playoff system that eliminates teams, which I am not in favor for either because I have seen many of my coaching buddies in Ohio who have gotten screwed through a qualification system.

Bah, you claim to be against the "wussification of America" yet you agree with the "let all the wussy teams in" playoff system.  You can't have it both ways.

 

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4 hours ago, komets3001 said:

Cox comes off as a buffoon in this article....

I tried to be a little more pc in my post, but I tend to agree with this sentiment regarding his comments addressing the entire process/idea of seeding a post-season tournament.  Made absolutely zero sense.

It’s great for Wes Del to win a sectional game and all, but is it also great for the seniors of a 9-0 team to have their careers cut 2 weeks short because they lose to another 9-0 team in the first round?  I would argue that the 9-0 team has EARNED the opportunity to get 2 more weeks of practice to possibly improve and prepare for the other 9-0 team in the SEEDED bracket.  I guess not in the state of Indiana though.

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Sectionals need to be seeded at a minimum.  This is so easy and can be accomplished locally and not by the IHSAA.  I'm an advocate of arranging semi-state and potentially regional games at neutral sites as well.  

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Nobody has ever accused the IHSAA of having a clue.

The regional and semi-state games this year were garbage all over the state.  Yea there were some good games here and there.  But a lot of bad matchups and games that were decided literally when one team got to the gamesite on time for the kickoff.

And half of the state games are likely to be mismatches too.

But ohh well. 

At bare minimum, the top 2 teams in each sectional should be seeded.  Put in opposite brackets.  Regional and Semi-State games should be at neutral sites (because there are some venues that have no business hosting a game past the sectional).  Those are EASY fixes.  But not in Indiana.

Edited by Dan Jones
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12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Fixed the typo for you.

Appreciate it bro.

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Bah, you claim to be against the "wussification of America" yet you agree with the "let all the wussy teams in" playoff system.  You can't have it both ways.

 

I want all teams to get in because there is no qualification system that is unbiased in high school football, I'd be in total favor of a qualification system that really did the job right but to this day I haven't seen one. And I don't see how I'm trying to get it both ways, if you want a shot at a state championship then sign up for the playoffs and go, but if you don't want your Hot Dawgs to be in the playoff because they might be beaten badly they don't have to, play your 9 regular season games, get your participation trophy and strap on those basketball sneakers big guy.

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7 minutes ago, El Tigre said:

if you want a shot at a state championship then sign up for the playoffs and go, but if you don't want your Hot Dawgs to be in the playoff because they might be beaten badly they don't have to, play your 9 regular season games, get your participation trophy and strap on those basketball sneakers big guy.

Please tell me how this "sign up for the playoffs" system would work.  Sounds intriguing.

 

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Not surprised. It’s ihsaa. They just don’t care. 

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Agree with them or not, the IHSAA is the governing body of varsity football, and every other varsity sport in Indiana.  They do so much more than just decide if teams should be seeded.  The opportunity they present these kids is incredible.  Without the IHSAA, there is no tournament at all.  Sectional champs, Regional Champs, Semi-State Champs.  There is no Lucas Oil.    There is no rule placement to protect the players from injury.  There is no officiating crews to cover every team.  There is no structure... etc...

If you are bashing on the IHSAA, I DARE you to have a conversation with Bobby Cox.  The dude is in it for all the right reasons.  Agree or disagree with how he goes about doing things, but don't be saying he doesn't care.  We are lucky to have someone that genuinely cares about the kids.  If you don't know what you are talking about, that's fine, but don't drag people through the mud that don't deserve it. 

I don't agree with everything the IHSAA does and says, but I sure respect the crap out of their mission to give ALL student-athletes a chance to compete and succeed. 

Again... If you haven't talked to him or even heard him speak in person, stop bashing the man for "not caring."  He has good intentions for all players, coaches, and refs.

Rant over.  Good luck to all the teams at state!  Even the ones that had bad draws in sectionals!  :17_v:

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3 hours ago, itiswhatitis said:

That isn't the issue.  NOBODY wants to see two 9 - 0 teams playing each other in the first round of ANY sectional.  THAT, is what nobody wants, Mr. Commish.

THIS.

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59 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Please tell me how this "sign up for the playoffs" system would work.  Sounds intriguing.

http://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/about ihsaa/2017-18 By-Laws.pdf

ARTICLE III - MEMBERSHIP

Section 1.

All Memberships Are Voluntary. An Indiana-based Secondary School may become a member of this Corporation by meeting the requirements for Membership, by subscribing to all rules and regulations of the Corporation, and by completing and submitting a membership application form to the Commissioner, accompanied by a Two Thousand dollar ($2,000.00) initiation fee, on or before August 1.

Section 2.

Full Membership in this Corporation shall be open to all public, private, parochial, boarding, and institutional high schools of the state offering and maintaining Two (2) or more years of high school work, provided they meet the requirements of the Corporation and also subscribe to its rules and regulations. A school to be eligible for Membership in the IHSAA must (a) have Full Accreditation or Freeway Accreditation from the Indiana Department of Education or be fully accredited by the Commission on Accreditation and School Improvement or by another national or regional accrediting agency recognized by the Indiana Department of Education for purposes of the School Scholarship Program under Ind. Code §20-51 and approved by the IHSAA, provided the school meets the graduation qualifying requirements of the state of Indiana and (b) must have previously provided and continue to maintain at least one team in an IHSAA sponsored sport for each gender during each sports season. A school shall neither become a member nor remain a member in the IHSAA whose detailed financial (athletic or otherwise), scholastic and attendance records are not readily made available, as requested, to the IHSAA during an investigation.

Section 3.

Any school upon being granted Membership in the Association shall not be permitted to participate in IHSAA tournaments for a period of four years from the date of admittance. Article III - Membership 4 NOTE: Existing IHSAA member schools that consolidate or divide into multiple schools shall be excluded from said rule.

Section 4.

Junior membership may be extended to a school which is accredited by the Department of Education, which offers ninth grade, but which is not eligible for full Membership.

If you need a Sparknotes version I can't help you there big guy.

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51 minutes ago, El Tigre said:

http://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/about ihsaa/2017-18 By-Laws.pdf

ARTICLE III - MEMBERSHIP

Section 1.

All Memberships Are Voluntary. An Indiana-based Secondary School may become a member of this Corporation by meeting the requirements for Membership, by subscribing to all rules and regulations of the Corporation, and by completing and submitting a membership application form to the Commissioner, accompanied by a Two Thousand dollar ($2,000.00) initiation fee, on or before August 1.

Section 2.

Full Membership in this Corporation shall be open to all public, private, parochial, boarding, and institutional high schools of the state offering and maintaining Two (2) or more years of high school work, provided they meet the requirements of the Corporation and also subscribe to its rules and regulations. A school to be eligible for Membership in the IHSAA must (a) have Full Accreditation or Freeway Accreditation from the Indiana Department of Education or be fully accredited by the Commission on Accreditation and School Improvement or by another national or regional accrediting agency recognized by the Indiana Department of Education for purposes of the School Scholarship Program under Ind. Code §20-51 and approved by the IHSAA, provided the school meets the graduation qualifying requirements of the state of Indiana and (b) must have previously provided and continue to maintain at least one team in an IHSAA sponsored sport for each gender during each sports season. A school shall neither become a member nor remain a member in the IHSAA whose detailed financial (athletic or otherwise), scholastic and attendance records are not readily made available, as requested, to the IHSAA during an investigation.

Section 3.

Any school upon being granted Membership in the Association shall not be permitted to participate in IHSAA tournaments for a period of four years from the date of admittance. Article III - Membership 4 NOTE: Existing IHSAA member schools that consolidate or divide into multiple schools shall be excluded from said rule.

Section 4.

Junior membership may be extended to a school which is accredited by the Department of Education, which offers ninth grade, but which is not eligible for full Membership.

If you need a Sparknotes version I can't help you there big guy.

I guess I'm just stupid and don't understand.   So you are saying that instead of trying to change the IHSAA's current football playoff system those coaches/AD's/school that wish for change are better off withdrawing from the IHSAA completely and forming a separate association?

 

Edited by Muda69

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13 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Seeding or no seeding.   I am all in on a "mercy rule" 

Yes please. It's often not a fun situation for either side in a blow out.

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3 hours ago, Dan Jones said:

Nobody has ever accused the IHSAA of having a clue.

The regional and semi-state games this year were garbage all over the state.  Yea there were some good games here and there.  But a lot of bad matchups and games that were decided literally when one team got to the gamesite on time for the kickoff.

And half of the state games are likely to be mismatches too.

But ohh well. 

At bare minimum, the top 2 teams in each sectional should be seeded.  Put in opposite brackets.  Regional and Semi-State games should be at neutral sites (because there are some venues that have no business hosting a game past the sectional).  Those are EASY fixes.  But not in Indiana.

Neutral sites would require a rental fee which would take $ out of the IHSAA's pocket with no apparent return on that investment--so it's not happening. Not spending any more than is necessary.

The IHSAA earned their bones on the cash-cow of a single-class basketball tournament---that revenue stream is only a trickle now. Got to make up the shortfall anyway they can.

As an example, the $2000 it costs to now become an IHSAA member--used to be $1 not long ago.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

I guess I'm just stupid and don't understand.   So you are saying that instead of trying to change the IHSAA's current football playoff system those coaches/AD's/school that wish for change are better off withdrawing from the IHSAA completely and forming a separate association?

You wanted to know how a "sign up for the playoffs" would work so I gave it to you. Apply to the IHSAA, pay the fee, follow the rules, and wait through your probation and you get to go to the playoffs, that's kinda how the all in format works. 

And not sure how you think I'm in favor of teams breaking away form the IHSAA when I argued earlier sectionals should be seeded while stating how progressive the IHSAA has been in the last few years namely with the creation of the Success Factor. If we're willing to create a system that bumps teams up to higher classifications based on post season success then why are we unable to seed teams based on regular season success?

But I guess you're right, I want teams to leave the IHSAA . . . 

 

Image result for viva la revolucion

 

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