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southend

Officiating both days at state games

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4 hours ago, falconsfbref said:

There was only one major play I would like either video or better description.  In one of the games, I think it was Saturday, it seems the defense got an INT.  During the return, B blocked in back and then A tackled by facemask?  Or something like that.  Anyone have video or know the play I am referring to?

 

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Go to IHSAATV.NET  and look it up.  Both fouls were post possession.  

I think it was either the first or second play of the second quarter. 

Edited by Huge football fan
Correction

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15 minutes ago, falconsfbref said:

I understand that...but what game?  qtr?   If both were post possesion, then B has to decline the facemask and have their foul enforced  to keep the ball.  Both are not enforced

6a game. 2nd q first or second play. Looks like play ended at 13 there is a illegal block during the return and a personal foul face mask on the tackle? They went 10 yards back for the illegal block and then half the distance up for the face mask. Ball is placed at the 11 1/2??? 

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43 minutes ago, Huge football fan said:

6a game. 2nd q first or second play. Looks like play ended at 13 there is a illegal block during the return and a personal foul face mask on the tackle? They went 10 yards back for the illegal block and then half the distance up for the face mask. Ball is placed at the 11 1/2??? 

Ok....That was administered incorrectly.....Ben Davis had to decline the facemask, and have their block in back enforced from spot of foul.  Penn had no option.  Ben Davis could have declined the option, but then you have offsetting fouls and replay down.  

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46 minutes ago, Huge football fan said:

6a game. 2nd q first or second play. Looks like play ended at 13 there is a illegal block during the return and a personal foul face mask on the tackle? They went 10 yards back for the illegal block and then half the distance up for the face mask. Ball is placed at the 11 1/2??? 

If that’s truly what happened, that’s an erroneous enforcement. Since the fouls both occurred after possession changed, B has to decline the A foul to keep the ball. The penalty on B is enforced 10 yds. from the spot of the foul or end of the return, whichever is least advantageous for B. 1st & 10 there.

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1 hour ago, Huge football fan said:

6a game. 2nd q first or second play. Looks like play ended at 13 there is a illegal block during the return and a personal foul face mask on the tackle? They went 10 yards back for the illegal block and then half the distance up for the face mask. Ball is placed at the 11 1/2??? 

1st play of 2nd quarter. That is the wrong enforcement. For BD to keep the ball, they have to decline the facemask by Penn. Then assess the block in the back from the spot of the foul or end of the run (whichever is worse).  It looks like the ball should have been back on about the 23yd line.

Edited by zardoz34
misspelling

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5 hours ago, BTB30 said:

Admittedly, I didn’t watch every play of the 6 games but the most questionable play that I saw came in the 3A game. The Memorial qb threw and interception while rolling left under duress. After the pass he continued out of bounds by more than a yard (beyond the white belt), ran 10 yards out of bounds returning to the field to make the tackle. IMO this is a clear illegal participation call. 

A going out of bounds and returning only applies prior to a change of possession. Unless he did it really quick while the ball was still in the air, it's not illegal participation. Once the pass is intercepted he can go out and/or return. Even if it was before the interception that would be a very technical application of the rule.

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It’s at the 10:30 mark in the 4th quarter. Check it out. It didn’t pass the eye test when I watched it live. I watched again on the replay and still think it probably should have been flagged. He was certainly out before the change of possession and the fact the he ran behind a defender and to the ball carrier while out of bounds it what caught my eye. Not something you see everyday for sure.  

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15 minutes ago, BTB30 said:

It’s at the 10:30 mark in the 4th quarter. Check it out. It didn’t pass the eye test when I watched it live. I watched again on the replay and still think it probably should have been flagged. He was certainly out before the change of possession and the fact the he ran behind a defender and to the ball carrier while out of bounds it what caught my eye. Not something you see everyday for sure.  

Found it. He didn't come back in until after the pass was intercepted. Per the rule that is not a foul. It's now after the change of possession. It's only a foul for illegal participation if a player of team A goes out of bounds and returns PRIOR to a change of possession. He came in very quickly so he wasn't OOB for more than a second. If he was behind an opponent it was a B player who went out of bounds on the play too.

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On 11/26/2017 at 2:11 PM, tango said:

I would say the 3A crew was above average, no where near great.  Felt that way live and confirmed on TV broadcast yesterday.  Lance Scheib was delicate and diplomatic.  

The mutual PF was a "tough" call...there might have been a few others.  That one stood out...someone (from Brebeuf) might well have been ejected if they got that right.  The 3A game kind of stood out to me and I thought of it immediately when I saw this thread.  I thought it was a little "rough" as regards the officiating.  That said, the best team won...perhaps not as easily.

Takes something special to be a referee.  They are truly rare people.

Honestly, though...one of the calls I had the greatest objection to in the playoffs took place the week prior.  One of the East Central players was ejected for a "targeting" call in Semistate -which wasn't even close to that.  He couldn't play in the State Championship because of that.  Again, I am sympathetic to those refereering the game...but it just seems to me you have to be 100% sure before you deny a kid the next game - particularly a State Championship game.

Edited by Lysander

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Is it Live or is it Memorex?

I think that has to be the biggest problem with being an official.  It's easy to go back and replay/rewatch particular sequences or plays and try to parse the calls with a fine tooth comb.  During the games - live - I didn't see many issues and the games had a nice flow to them.  The officials officiated, the players played, and the coaches coached.  Rewatching the streams I have noticed a few minor things, but without knowing what plays the coaches called or who was to block whom, I can't give the players/coaches the same scrutiny I can the officials.  I still won't let it change my overall opinion of a well officiated weekend.

I will say though - @Lysander - we couldn't really have the Mental Attitude award winner ejected for throwing an open handed slap to the face, now could we? LOL

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On 11/27/2017 at 3:03 PM, bobref said:

the people doing the selecting are not trained to recognize what differentiates a top flight crew from one that is merely good.  The selectors use other criteria like communication skills, appearance, hustle, demeanor, etc.

Ok bobref, I cant take it any longer. Every time I get on here now, GD, I cant get out of my head, and cant stop laughing at this thought. The selectors are sitting at a table in front of the stage, and ask you, to go on the stage. all the time watching, making sure your shirt is tucked in, your hat is cocked properly, your shoes are shined , fingernails are clean. Then they lead you to the mic, ask a few tough questions, looking for any snide looks for demeanor and communication skills Then they have you jog back and forth on the stage, testing your hustle. All the while the selectors are taking notes talking back and forth with each other. Then they excuse you, and say ok bobref you get the north semi-state. NEXT! You know like miss or mr. Universe. 

Edited by southend
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On 11/26/2017 at 7:08 AM, southend said:

I'm going to say, that these were probable the best, officiated state games I have watched, as a collective group. The officials were almost invisible, but kept the games legit. I may be in dream land here, but I don't think it could get any better than how the games were called.

I totally agree with this.  In the 2A game, I didn't think there was a single bad call.  They did a great job.  You could tell they were very confident on the field and always had control of the game.  

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BobRef and others there was one other unusual play. Screen pass and the ball hits a lineman in the back 3-4 yards in the backfield. The pass bounced off the linesmans back to the rb who caught it & was tackled for a 3 yard loss. They announced illegal touching which was declined? They put the ball up 3 yards to the original line of scrimmage?? Didn't seem right?

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1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

I will say though - @Lysander - we couldn't really have the Mental Attitude award winner ejected for throwing an open handed slap to the face, now could we? LOL

I wasn't going to point that out because the officials obviously have no idea who the IHSAA has pre-selected to be the attitude award winner, but it would have been interesting to see if the IHSAA would have given the award to an ejected player...   As Lysander said, none of the calls ultimately changed the outcome.  

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2 hours ago, Huge football fan said:

BobRef and others there was one other unusual play. Screen pass and the ball hits a lineman in the back 3-4 yards in the backfield. The pass bounced off the linesmans back to the rb who caught it & was tackled for a 3 yard loss. They announced illegal touching which was declined? They put the ball up 3 yards to the original line of scrimmage?? Didn't seem right?

It’s not. Illegal touching is an intentional act on the part of the player doing the touching. While the lineman was ineligible, if the ball hits him in the back, and he’s not trying to catch it, there’s no foul for illegal touching. The foul requires that the ineligible “muff, bat or catch” a legal forward pass before it has been touched by the defense. Sounds like a legal reception in the play you described.

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Just asking, what about the officials stopping the clock and allowing the EG QB to be attended to for apparent blood and giving them time to try to get it covered.  Then, EG calls time out and the QB is allowed to return to the field without sitting out a play.  Is this proper administration of the rules?  If I remember correctly, this happened between 3rd and 4th down.  I'm sure that would have been a rare event for EG to go for it on a 4th down and not have their starting QB on the field.

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9 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Is it Live or is it Memorex?

I think that has to be the biggest problem with being an official.  It's easy to go back and replay/rewatch particular sequences or plays and try to parse the calls with a fine tooth comb.  During the games - live - I didn't see many issues and the games had a nice flow to them.  The officials officiated, the players played, and the coaches coached.  Rewatching the streams I have noticed a few minor things, but without knowing what plays the coaches called or who was to block whom, I can't give the players/coaches the same scrutiny I can the officials.  I still won't let it change my overall opinion of a well officiated weekend.

I will say though - @Lysander - we couldn't really have the Mental Attitude award winner ejected for throwing an open handed slap to the face, now could we? LOL

Wow,  didn't realize it was the Mental Attitude award winner...

I thought it was a very smooth weekend overall as well.

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1 hour ago, Major Reisman said:

Just asking, what about the officials stopping the clock and allowing the EG QB to be attended to for apparent blood and giving them time to try to get it covered.  Then, EG calls time out and the QB is allowed to return to the field without sitting out a play.  Is this proper administration of the rules?  If I remember correctly, this happened between 3rd and 4th down.  I'm sure that would have been a rare event for EG to go for it on a 4th down and not have their starting QB on the field.

Whenever the game clock is stopped, or the ready signal is delayed, due to an injured or apparently injured player, the player must leave the game for a play, unless the intermission for halftime or during overtime intervenes. Some crews have adopted a procedure by which the information “#36 has to sit for a play” gets relayed to all crew members routinely in such instances.

Edited by bobref

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3 minutes ago, bobref said:

Whenever the game clock is stopped, or the ready signal is delayed, due to an injured or apparently injured player, the player must leave the game for a play, unless the intermission for halftime or during overtime intervenes.

I believe they called a time out before the play clock expired, then he resumed play after the time out. Does he still need to sit out a play in that case?

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Just now, Gonzoron said:

I believe they called a time out before the play clock expired, then he resumed play after the time out. Does he still need to sit out a play in that case?

Yes. You cannot “buy” your way back into the game with a timeout.

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14 hours ago, bobref said:

Whenever the game clock is stopped, or the ready signal is delayed, due to an injured or apparently injured player, the player must leave the game for a play, unless the intermission for halftime or during overtime intervenes. Some crews have adopted a procedure by which the information “#36 has to sit for a play” gets relayed to all crew members routinely in such instances.

So, what you are saying is that the officials were WRONG in this case?  That is not like you.

Edited by Major Reisman

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