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THE FOOTBALL GUY

Mid State

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5 minutes ago, DrivenT said:

Mooresville's enrollment has remained steady at around 1400 for several years.  Certainly not experiencing the same growth as Avon, Plainfield and Brownsburg.  I agree a move to the Sagamore makes great sense for them.  Everything fits much better in terms of size, competitiveness, demographics and socio economics.    It's better for them to make the move sooner than later.  Why wait for the bigger Mid States schools to eventually push them out?  

Then what does the Mid State do about Greenwood?

Greenwood at 1200 students is even smaller that Mooresville.  I think GW would fit well in the Hoosier Heritage Conference.  

With two openings, the Mid State could then make an aggressive move for the two Columbus schools

Thats a very solid 5A-6A conference

Plainfield

Columbus East

Columbus North

Perry Meridian

Franklin

Martinsville

Whiteland

Decatur Central

 

 

This would be my vision for the conference. I think long-term (5-15 years) this is what we will see. BTB30 does make some good and valid points. However, since 2000, there have been major changes in enrollment in the mid-state. Whiteland has doubled its size, DC and Plainfield have grown substantially. Like I mentioned before, I think this conference will mirror the HCC in the near future. 

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5 minutes ago, Indyyjr said:

If I am Mooresville, why do I want to add all of that travel?  In the Mid-State, I have Decatur and Plainfield less than 10 miles away---quick drive to Martinsville, too.  And, Mooresville's longer drives are Franklin, Whiteland, Greenwood, and Perry?

Danville is the closest Sagamore school---and Mooresville to Frankfort and North Montgomery?!?  You're crazy to even think that would work.

I do not know a "better" option for them. What I forsee though is DC, Whiteland, Plainfield, and PM pushing Mooresville out because of their size. 

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14 minutes ago, THE FOOTBALL GUY said:

This would be my vision for the conference. I think long-term (5-15 years) this is what we will see. BTB30 does make some good and valid points. However, since 2000, there have been major changes in enrollment in the mid-state. Whiteland has doubled its size, DC and Plainfield have grown substantially. Like I mentioned before, I think this conference will mirror the HCC in the near future. 

Not quite at the competitive level of the HCC, but still very solid.  Franklin needs to significantly upgrade its football program, and Perry Meridian and Martinsville would be challenged in this new conference setup.  With the right coaching and total program comittment, they can compete.  

8 minutes ago, THE FOOTBALL GUY said:

I do not know a "better" option for them. What I forsee though is DC, Whiteland, Plainfield, and PM pushing Mooresville out because of their size. 

I agree.  Mooresville needs to look out longterm at their best interests.  They dont want to be in the position that the Terre Haute schools find themselves in, looking over their shoulders every year wondering if they are wanted or not.  Same thing happened with the Lafayette schools and their affiliation with the HCC. 

Griffith made an aggressive proactive move when they left the NCC for the smaller GSSC.  Hobart did the same thing when they left the Duneland for the NCC/Lake Athletic.  Both schools knew that their prior conferences had outgrown them.  They didn't wait to get pushed out.  Mooresville and Greenwood will be facing the same fate in the Mid State, sooner or later.  

Edited by DrivenT
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The Mooresville area hasn't seen the same type of growth that some of these areas have which is somewhat puzzling.  Plentiful development potential on all sides of the town with relatively easy access to 465 and 70.  I believe Heartland Crossing is mostly DC and other than that I don't know of any major residential developments.  Maybe that's by design from the town admin, maybe just no growth, not by design but lack of trying.

Either way, from a football perspective, they played they're best at the end of the year and they certainly have an excellent coach in place so I would expect them to trend upward from where they've been.  

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11 minutes ago, bowwowindy1 said:

The Mooresville area hasn't seen the same type of growth that some of these areas have which is somewhat puzzling.  Plentiful development potential on all sides of the town with relatively easy access to 465 and 70.  I believe Heartland Crossing is mostly DC and other than that I don't know of any major residential developments.  Maybe that's by design from the town admin, maybe just no growth, not by design but lack of trying.

Either way, from a football perspective, they played they're best at the end of the year and they certainly have an excellent coach in place so I would expect them to trend upward from where they've been.  

Outsiders gain a quick perspective that Mooresville is a very insular, provincial community.  That inhibits growth.  

If Greenwood and Mooresville are concerned about travel outside of the Mid State, they could always approach the Circle City.  :07_v:

I'm a big fan of mixed public/parochial conferences.  The Summit, NIC and SIAC are great examples of how this works to everyone's satisfaction.

 

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Both Mooresville and Greenwood would fit very well in the Hoosier Heritage Conference, especially if they give the boot to Yorktown and Delta.  

Pendleton Heights

Mount Vernon

Greenfield-Central

New Palestine

New Castle

Shelbyville

Greenwood

Mooresville

Unfortunately the drive of around an hour to the other 6 members of the HHC make it an unattractive move.

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20 hours ago, Indyyjr said:

If I am Mooresville, why do I want to add all of that travel?  In the Mid-State, I have Decatur and Plainfield less than 10 miles away---quick drive to Martinsville, too.  And, Mooresville's longer drives are Franklin, Whiteland, Greenwood, and Perry?

Danville is the closest Sagamore school---and Mooresville to Frankfort and North Montgomery?!?  You're crazy to even think that would work.

This is why I suggested the ICC instead Trition Central would be the longest drive for Mooresville but that is the case for every school in the conference plus it works for Monrovia which is separated from Mooresville by about 5 miles. I think we tend to forget schools with accept longer travel times to conference schools if it gets their sports team more competitive if your someone from Mooresville would you rather drive 45 mins to TC to watch Mooresville potentially win their 7th game of the year or drive less than 10 miles away to watch them get their 7th loss of the season and see DC hang 60 on you? 

20 hours ago, DrivenT said:

Mooresville's enrollment has remained steady at around 1400 for several years.  Certainly not experiencing the same growth as Avon, Plainfield and Brownsburg.  I agree a move to the Sagamore makes great sense for them.  Everything fits much better in terms of size, competitiveness, demographics and socio economics.    It's better for them to make the move sooner than later.  Why wait for the bigger Mid States schools to eventually push them out?  

I agree that the SAG fits Mooresville a little better and agree I just think it would be a win for the ICC to get Mooresville and drop a mess like Park Tutor, Im sure the SAG would feel the same way about getting rid of Frankfort and adding Mooresville. Either way its a win for Mooresville IMO. 

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9 minutes ago, EasyEJay said:

This is why I suggested the ICC instead Trition Central would be the longest drive for Mooresville but that is the case for every school in the conference plus it works for Monrovia which is separated from Mooresville by about 5 miles. I think we tend to forget schools with accept longer travel times to conference schools if it gets their sports team more competitive if your someone from Mooresville would you rather drive 45 mins to TC to watch Mooresville potentially win their 7th game of the year or drive less than 10 miles away to watch them get their 7th loss of the season and see DC hang 60 on you? 

I agree that the SAG fits Mooresville a little better and agree I just think it would be a win for the ICC to get Mooresville and drop a mess like Park Tutor, Im sure the SAG would feel the same way about getting rid of Frankfort and adding Mooresville. Either way its a win for Mooresville IMO. 

Correct spelling is "Park Tudor."

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22 minutes ago, DrivenT said:

Correct spelling is "Park Tudor."

Ya I agree this thread is losing momentum .....

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3 hours ago, EasyEJay said:

This is why I suggested the ICC instead Trition Central would be the longest drive for Mooresville but that is the case for every school in the conference plus it works for Monrovia which is separated from Mooresville by about 5 miles. I think we tend to forget schools with accept longer travel times to conference schools if it gets their sports team more competitive if your someone from Mooresville would you rather drive 45 mins to TC to watch Mooresville potentially win their 7th game of the year or drive less than 10 miles away to watch them get their 7th loss of the season and see DC hang 60 on you? 

I agree that the SAG fits Mooresville a little better and agree I just think it would be a win for the ICC to get Mooresville and drop a mess like Park Tutor, Im sure the SAG would feel the same way about getting rid of Frankfort and adding Mooresville. Either way its a win for Mooresville IMO. 

First off, the ICC would have to INVITE or OFFER Mooresville

Second, why would mostly 2A schools invite Mooresville to come in and beat them

And, third, what good does it do Class 4A Mooresville to to play in a conference including all other schools as 1A, 2A, and 3A....just shaking my head at the silliness being suggested here

Everyone keeps pointing Mooresville north or east---what about SOUTH and WEST--as in the Western Indiana Conference---at least all the majority of those schools are 3A(OV, Brown Co, Edgewood, West Vigo, Sullivan, Indian Creek, Greencastle, Northview)

Edited by Indyyjr

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4 minutes ago, Indyyjr said:

First off, the ICC would have to INVITE or OFFER Mooresville

Second, why would mostly 2A schools invite Mooresville to come in and beat them

And, third, what good does it do Class 4A Mooresville to to play in a conference including all other schools as 1A, 2A, and 3A....just shaking my head at the silliness being suggested here

Ok Bait taken........ Again Mooresville would be competitive but by no means dominate the conference. They beat another 4A school in BG 17-12 this year that finished 3-4 in ICC play. the 1A and 2A schools are not teams like North Knox these teams are consistently ranked teams year in and year out. if you look at Mooresville sectional

 

 
SECTIONAL 22
  Sect Class Overall
Beech Grove 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Connersville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Greenwood 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Mooresville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Mount Vernon (Fortville) 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
New Castle 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Richmond 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Shelbyville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0

 

I do think playing and competing against ranked 1A, 2A and 3A teams serve you just as much if not more (from a moral standpoint) benefit than getting drilled by some of these Mid-State teams most years. DC had hung at least 30+ on Mooresville every year since Mark Bless left and managed 1 .500 season and NO winning seasons........ so not silly 

I'm also fully aware of how teams end up in new conference....... I get they just can't join if you return to my original post I said it would stand to benefit the ICC the most to get rid of Park Tudor and their antics and add a competitive team like Mooresville so please save your condensing tone for unfortunate person who has to listen to you. The forum is merely suggesting that the Pioneers have options if THEY SO CHOOSE. 

At the end of the day one can make an argument that neither the ICC or Mid-State is beneficial for a 4A school in sectional 22. BG is not really having any luck nor Mooresville both finished 37 and 38 in SAGRIN class 4A. But again maybe I'm different but more likely 7-4 in the ICC looks a bit better for the programs health and longevity than constant 3, 4 win seasons in the Mid-State not every team is Cathedral and can endure getting beat in the regular season to prepare them for a State Run. 

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1 hour ago, Dan Jones said:

Mooresville isn't going anywhere.

 

At the end of the day I'm inclined to agree with you its all hypothetical people on here tend to forget that.......... Obviously outside of the last 8 years in football Mooresville does and has done just fine in Mid-State, but they would be an attractive team for a conference IF they were looking for a new team and IF Mooresville decided it was the right move for them.

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1 hour ago, EasyEJay said:

At the end of the day I'm inclined to agree with you its all hypothetical people on here tend to forget that.......... Obviously outside of the last 8 years in football Mooresville does and has done just fine in Mid-State, but they would be an attractive team for a conference IF they were looking for a new team and IF Mooresville decided it was the right move for them.

Interesting discussion.  I think we are starting to see a different set of criteria and different motivations for schools who are considering changing conference affiliation.

In the past, it was primarily for competitive reasons.  Now, we are seeing schools make changes with culture, demographic, and socio economic similarities more at the forefront of their decision making.  Given this set of criteria, it is more likely that Mooresville would pursue a change.  I go back to the Griffith move from the NCC to the GSSC in Northwest Indiana, which came as a total shock to the conference.  Griffith was not only looking at future enrollment projections, but also desired affiliation with other "like-minded" schools, ie, a better "fit."  

Using this set of criteria, which of the following conferences represents the best long term fit for the Mooresville athletic program?

Mid State

ICC

Sagamore

Hoosier Heritage

Circle City

Western Indiana

 

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4 hours ago, EasyEJay said:

Ok Bait taken........ Again Mooresville would be competitive but by no means dominate the conference. They beat another 4A school in BG 17-12 this year that finished 3-4 in ICC play. the 1A and 2A schools are not teams like North Knox these teams are consistently ranked teams year in and year out. if you look at Mooresville sectional

 

 
SECTIONAL 22
  Sect Class Overall
Beech Grove 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Connersville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Greenwood 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Mooresville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Mount Vernon (Fortville) 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
New Castle 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Richmond 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0
Shelbyville 0-  0 0-  0 0-  0

 

I do think playing and competing against ranked 1A, 2A and 3A teams serve you just as much if not more (from a moral standpoint) benefit than getting drilled by some of these Mid-State teams most years. DC had hung at least 30+ on Mooresville every year since Mark Bless left and managed 1 .500 season and NO winning seasons........ so not silly 

I'm also fully aware of how teams end up in new conference....... I get they just can't join if you return to my original post I said it would stand to benefit the ICC the most to get rid of Park Tudor and their antics and add a competitive team like Mooresville so please save your condensing tone for unfortunate person who has to listen to you. The forum is merely suggesting that the Pioneers have options if THEY SO CHOOSE. 

At the end of the day one can make an argument that neither the ICC or Mid-State is beneficial for a 4A school in sectional 22. BG is not really having any luck nor Mooresville both finished 37 and 38 in SAGRIN class 4A. But again maybe I'm different but more likely 7-4 in the ICC looks a bit better for the programs health and longevity than constant 3, 4 win seasons in the Mid-State not every team is Cathedral and can endure getting beat in the regular season to prepare them for a State Run. 

Yeah, Mooresville could get out if they want, but someone else has to want them to get in elsewhere, and football is not the only sport impacted in a conference move--so, you're really saying nothing...

Any of the other options would need to change their current footprints to give Mooresville another home.   Right now, there is no good option for Mooresville to go to.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Indyyjr said:

Yeah, Mooresville could get out if they want, but someone else has to want them to get in elsewhere, and football is not the only sport impacted in a conference move--so, you're really saying nothing...

Any of the other options would need to change their current footprints to give Mooresville another home.   Right now, there is no good option for Mooresville to go to.

 

 

If Im a decision maker in the Mid State, I would target Greenwood for dismissal from the league first and foremost.  At 1200 students, they are the small school outlier and are a hindrance to the leagues long term growth strategy.

GW has blocked the league from expanding on multiple occassions.  First with Roncalli, and then with Columbus East.  The Woodman are a roadblock in the way of the Mid States achieving its goal of becoming a big school conference.  Greenwood would be welcomed with open arms into the HHC.  I wouldnt be surprised if they already have feelers out.

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3 hours ago, DrivenT said:

If Im a decision maker in the Mid State, I would target Greenwood for dismissal from the league first and foremost.  At 1200 students, they are the small school outlier and are a hindrance to the leagues long term growth strategy.

GW has blocked the league from expanding on multiple occassions.  First with Roncalli, and then with Columbus East.  The Woodman are a roadblock in the way of the Mid States achieving its goal of becoming a big school conference.  Greenwood would be welcomed with open arms into the HHC.  I wouldnt be surprised if they already have feelers out.

What hindrance has Greenwood been to the Mid-State? They finished with 2 losses in the Mid-State in football. 1 of those loss s was a 13-12 loss to eventual conference champion Decatur Central. They also were the teambto go the furthest in the tournament from the Mid-State losing in Semi-State to eventual State Champion East Central 27-14 at East Central. I don't see them as a hindrance at all!

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2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

What hindrance has Greenwood been to the Mid-State? They finished with 2 losses in the Mid-State in football. 1 of those loss s was a 13-12 loss to eventual conference champion Decatur Central. They also were the teambto go the furthest in the tournament from the Mid-State losing in Semi-State to eventual State Champion East Central 27-14 at East Central. I don't see them as a hindrance at all!

They don't fit the long term 5A - 6A model for the conference.  What is GW record over the past 10 years?

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10 hours ago, DrivenT said:

They don't fit the long term 5A - 6A model for the conference.  What is GW record over the past 10 years?

They are 33-38 in the Mid-State over 10 years. That being said the first 5 years of Coach Campbell's tenure they struggled (2-8, 4-7, 4-7, 3-8, and 4-7). Since then they have been pretty steady in the Mid-State. They also have been playing Perry Meridian the last 5 years and are 3-2 against them. Greenwood was also successfull when Coach Wimmer was there prior to leaving for Fishers.

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1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

They are 33-38 in the Mid-State over 10 years. That being said the first 5 years of Coach Campbell's tenure they struggled (2-8, 4-7, 4-7, 3-8, and 4-7). Since then they have been pretty steady in the Mid-State. They also have been playing Perry Meridian the last 5 years and are 3-2 against them. Greenwood was also successfull when Coach Wimmer was there prior to leaving for Fishers.

No disagreement on any of the points you have made.  You are looking backward.  I am looking forward.  If the long term strategy for the Mid State is to be a conference stocked with 5A and 6A schools, Greenwood does not fit the model, regardless of their recent success.  Same with Mooresville.  

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I find this whole topic extremely intriguing as I used to teach and coach at Mooresville. One thing that people may not be looking at is that Mooresville is right at the top of 4A in enrollment. There's a good chance that if any growth occurs, they'll be bumped to 5A in the future. May or may not matter to the Mid-State.

Secondly and furthermore, schools don't make decisions based off of football alone. Mooresville has been extremely competitive in other sports and the travel for them all is short. Girls basketball is always top half. Boys basketball usually is near the top (last year excluded). Wrestling is always in the top 2-3. Baseball is in the top half. Softball has won 3 straight titles in the Mid-State. Granted, the running and swimming programs have struggled with a smaller pool of athletes to pull from, but all other programs, football being the outlier, have been fine in the Mid-State.

So the question becomes, does Mooresville want to make a move to benefit their football program (and perhaps all their athletic programs), and have to travel farther? Or do they suffer in football and try to rebuild a winner there while staying in the Mid-State?

The one thing I think will absolutely NEVER happen is that they will join the ICC. Having worked there, the mindset is that of playing larger teams leads to more success later (during the state tourney) and they DID make it to the Sectional finals after winning exactly 1 regular season game (against an ICC school). Further, there is a large fear of playing Monrovia because it's so close. If they win, everybody says "Great, you beat a 2A team! That's what you're supposed to do." However if you lose...."How can you lose to Monrovia?! You're three times their size?" I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but what exactly does Mooresville have to gain in that scenario? A large ticket gate every 2 years? I get that county rivalries are fun, but I've seen coaches at Marion HS when I was in HS lose jobs because they lost to little Madison Grant 2 out of 3 times in their season opener. Not always great for the bigger school.

 

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36 minutes ago, LB1017 said:

I find this whole topic extremely intriguing as I used to teach and coach at Mooresville. One thing that people may not be looking at is that Mooresville is right at the top of 4A in enrollment. There's a good chance that if any growth occurs, they'll be bumped to 5A in the future. May or may not matter to the Mid-State.

Secondly and furthermore, schools don't make decisions based off of football alone. Mooresville has been extremely competitive in other sports and the travel for them all is short. Girls basketball is always top half. Boys basketball usually is near the top (last year excluded). Wrestling is always in the top 2-3. Baseball is in the top half. Softball has won 3 straight titles in the Mid-State. Granted, the running and swimming programs have struggled with a smaller pool of athletes to pull from, but all other programs, football being the outlier, have been fine in the Mid-State.

So the question becomes, does Mooresville want to make a move to benefit their football program (and perhaps all their athletic programs), and have to travel farther? Or do they suffer in football and try to rebuild a winner there while staying in the Mid-State?

The one thing I think will absolutely NEVER happen is that they will join the ICC. Having worked there, the mindset is that of playing larger teams leads to more success later (during the state tourney) and they DID make it to the Sectional finals after winning exactly 1 regular season game (against an ICC school). Further, there is a large fear of playing Monrovia because it's so close. If they win, everybody says "Great, you beat a 2A team! That's what you're supposed to do." However if you lose...."How can you lose to Monrovia?! You're three times their size?" I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but what exactly does Mooresville have to gain in that scenario? A large ticket gate every 2 years? I get that county rivalries are fun, but I've seen coaches at Marion HS when I was in HS lose jobs because they lost to little Madison Grant 2 out of 3 times in their season opener. Not always great for the bigger school.

 

Interesting perspective.  Appreciate your insider point of view.  What are your thoughts on the Sagamore or the Hoosier Heritage as potential "better fits" for MHS?

Yes, there will be more travel.  That is a given.  But in terms of best long term fit for MHS athletics, how do both stand up against the Mid State, assuming the MSC still wants Mooresville in the fold?

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19 hours ago, DrivenT said:

If Im a decision maker in the Mid State, I would target Greenwood for dismissal from the league first and foremost.  At 1200 students, they are the small school outlier and are a hindrance to the leagues long term growth strategy.

GW has blocked the league from expanding on multiple occassions.  First with Roncalli, and then with Columbus East.  The Woodman are a roadblock in the way of the Mid States achieving its goal of becoming a big school conference.  Greenwood would be welcomed with open arms into the HHC.  I wouldnt be surprised if they already have feelers out.

While everyone is talking Mooresville's and Greenwood's futures in the Mid-State, longevity does matter---The conference's core schools of Whiteland, Greenwood, Franklin, Mooresville, Greenwood, and Plainfield have long-term relationships that will carry some weight.  The last two schools to leave the Mid-State were Beech Grove and Speedway,--whose demographics no longer fit the other schools.

As long as everyone in the league is still playing 4A in hoops and baseball/softball and within one class of each other for football, the league probably won't make any drastic moves.

 

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