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Formation question


Irishman

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At the point of this photo I would consider this to be an illegal formation if the ball is snapped. We have no idea what the formation was at the snap though. One challenge here is the near wing may not see both of the backs near the interior linemen. The wing on the top has no idea if the slot is being ruled on or off.

I've seen similar formations and the slot receiver is either supposed to be on the LOS intentionally being covered up or the end on the other side of the formation.

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11 hours ago, JustRules said:

At the point of this photo I would consider this to be an illegal formation if the ball is snapped. We have no idea what the formation was at the snap though. One challenge here is the near wing may not see both of the backs near the interior linemen. The wing on the top has no idea if the slot is being ruled on or off.

I've seen similar formations and the slot receiver is either supposed to be on the LOS intentionally being covered up or the end on the other side of the formation.

This is PRECISELY the reason that each wing needs to signal to one another that they have 4 in the backfield!  Not knowing if the slot is on or off, is no excuse NOT to know basic pre-snap mechanics.

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3 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

This is PRECISELY the reason that each wing needs to signal to one another that they have 4 in the backfield!  Not knowing if the slot is on or off, is no excuse NOT to know basic pre-snap mechanics.

The craziest part is it was the wing on the BOTTOM that was arguing with our coach about it being legal. 

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14 minutes ago, Irishman said:

The craziest part is it was the wing on the BOTTOM that was arguing with our coach about it being legal. 

Ok so it looks like a mistake. He is probably arguing because he feels he’s right. The only issue would be if he knew he was wrong and was arguing but let’s skip that. Now the question is how did they miss it? Maybe the stack wings and they missed one. To me the R should know that he has 4 in the back field. Only way to have this be legal is if they have the slot covered up. Does this crew have a slot covered up signal? However they do it this shouldn’t be missed. 

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Just now, Huge Football Fan said:

Ok so it looks like a mistake. He is probably arguing because he feels he’s right. The only issue would be if he knew he was wrong and was arguing but let’s skip that. Now the question is how did they miss it? Maybe the stack wings and they missed one. To me the R should know that he has 4 in the back field. Only way to have this be legal is if they have the slot covered up. Does this crew have a slot covered up signal? However they do it this shouldn’t be missed. 

This is NOT "R's" primary responsibility!  Again, the wings should have communicated (pre-snap) the # of players legally in the backfield.  

This cannot be missed as it is what dictates EVERYTHING that can/could happen at the snap of the ball.  

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2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

This is NOT "R's" primary responsibility!  Again, the wings should have communicated (pre-snap) the # of players legally in the backfield.  

This cannot be missed as it is what dictates EVERYTHING that can/could happen at the snap of the ball.  

Never said it was R’s primary or secondary responsibility but the R can clearly see 4 players in the backfield right in front of him. Its a easy ask to say was someone covered up on that play? Looking at the formation I could see where a wing “could” miss one of the 2 upfront/wing people cuz they are side to side and it’s sort of an unusual formation. Can never be missed but we know mistakes happen and this is one that it missed they don’t miss it the second time. Good catch by whoever posted this play/question 

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1 minute ago, Huge Football Fan said:

Never said it was R’s primary or secondary responsibility but the R can clearly see 4 players in the backfield right in front of him. Its a easy ask to say was someone covered up on that play? Looking at the formation I could see where a wing “could” miss one of the 2 upfront/wing people cuz they are side to side and it’s sort of an unusual formation. Can never be missed but we know mistakes happen and this is one that it missed they don’t miss it the second time. Good catch by whoever posted this play/question 

Please tell me exactly what "R"'s responsibility is pre-snap. 

I can tell you that it is NOT in any way the responsibility of "R" to be primarily concerned with players in the backfield.  "R" counts the offensive players on the field,  identifies the offensive formation...irrespective of the players in the backfield....and then concentrates on the TE (T) through the off side "G"... and concerned with anything related to the QB.    

AGAIN..  It is the responsibility of the Wings to identify and signal (pre-snap) ALL formation illegalities....

This conversation is illuminating some situations that crews have had with their inability to advance in the tournament.  

 

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12 hours ago, Irishman said:

Not sure if this will load, but the slot never moved up before the snap. I recorded it on my ipad, so you may need an ipad or iphone to see it. 

 

IMG_0757.MOV 10.16 MB · 0 downloads

The video wouldn't play for me, but if the slot guy moved up before the snap and got set then the formation is legal. He's covered which is legal. He just can't go downfield if there is a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone.

Agree with Yucca that the R has no responsibility for counting the number of backs on any play. Almost always at least 1 or 2 of the backs are receivers outside the tackles. This is 100% on the wings.

We don't have a signal for confirming both wings have 4 in the backfield. We have a signal if one of them has 5 in the backfield (tap flag). If they both have 4 there is no reason to do anything. In this case they would signal each other they both have 4 as neither had a flag per what's been reported.

This post is a good example of why still photos often can't be used to determine if a foul has been committed. There was additional movement after this photo and before the snap which potentially changes the legality of the formation. You can share thoughts with a lot of caveats.

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8 hours ago, JustRules said:

The video wouldn't play for me, but if the slot guy moved up before the snap and got set then the formation is legal. He's covered which is legal. He just can't go downfield if there is a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone.

Agree with Yucca that the R has no responsibility for counting the number of backs on any play. Almost always at least 1 or 2 of the backs are receivers outside the tackles. This is 100% on the wings.

We don't have a signal for confirming both wings have 4 in the backfield. We have a signal if one of them has 5 in the backfield (tap flag). If they both have 4 there is no reason to do anything. In this case they would signal each other they both have 4 as neither had a flag per what's been reported.

This post is a good example of why still photos often can't be used to determine if a foul has been committed. There was additional movement after this photo and before the snap which potentially changes the legality of the formation. You can share thoughts with a lot of caveats.

The video shows the slot did not move up

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