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3 hours ago, silvertone1696 said:

So I would venture to guess that most schools considering dropping the program are 1A.

Bishop Noll Enrollment (Courtesy IHSAA website) - 525

Other similar sized programs include:
Rensselaer - 531
Eastbrook - 525
Evansville Mater Dei - 529
Woodlan - 534
Southridge - 531

Those are all schools at the very top of the 2A enrollments. These are also all perennial contenders. It seems crazy to me that the football program has fallen on such hard times that they can't even field a team. However keeping the JV team is a good idea because they can build up interest and confidence by playing this schedule. Some continuity at the top would help as well.

Oh and don't forget about their neighbor and fellow diocese brother Andrean, who has a lower enrollment at 492 than Noll is actually in 3A because of the success factor. And Andrean isn't exactly located in a socioeconomic utopia either, yet they are able to consistently put a great product on the football field. If you look at the success of the other programs at both schools, perhaps it was time to take a step back and re-calibrate the program and figure out how to put a decent product onto the field. 

Its all about demographics.  Noll today is 80% black and hispanic.  Those kids want to play basketball and soccer.  The best football players go to Andrean or Mt Carmel in Chicago.  Those demographics will not be changing, which is why they are making a mistake by not pulling the plug permanently.  

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1 hour ago, DrivenT said:

Its all about demographics.  Noll today is 80% black and hispanic.  Those kids want to play basketball and soccer.  The best football players go to Andrean or Mt Carmel in Chicago.  Those demographics will not be changing, which is why they are making a mistake by not pulling the plug permanently.  

I'm assuming Andrean's cash cow is the Lake Central and Crown Point areas with the rest of Northwest Indiana sprinkled in. They do have a strong history of getting good minority football players from Merrillville and Gary. I do wonder wonder if there's something Noll could be doing that would lure good football talent from East Chicago and Hammond. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I'm assuming Andrean's cash cow is the Lake Central and Crown Point areas with the rest of Northwest Indiana sprinkled in. They do have a strong history of getting good minority football players from Merrillville and Gary. I do wonder wonder if there's something Noll could be doing that would lure good football talent from East Chicago and Hammond. 

There is not much talent in Hammond, if you look at the rosters of the public schools and the recruiting results over the past 5 to 10 years.  EC had a nice run 5 years ago but that talent pool has gone dry as well.  Gary football is now non existent, and Merrillville is going thru its worst competitive stretch in 50 years.  Andrean's enrollment is in decline year over year now for the past 3 to 5 years.  Aging campus and poor facilities are at the core, as is the constant turnover within the administrative and executive leadership at the school.  These ongoing issues are costing Andrean students.  

I would agree that Crown Point and Lake Central are the feeder schools for the Andrean program, with Munster and Highland also contributing.  

Andrean is in desperate need of a move to a new location.  I would think this is a very high priority with the Gary Diocese, especially given these new developments with the Noll program.  

Edited by DrivenT

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I do not think Iliana Christian has a FB program now, but with them moving to Indiana do you think that will cost both Andrean and Noll some of their kids?  I would think the kids from CP and especially LC that were leaving may look more at Iliana now that they are even more so in their back yard, especially if they make the jump to the IHSAA as they have had some pretty good success in several sports over the years if I remember right

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1 hour ago, iubirdman said:

I do not think Iliana Christian has a FB program now, but with them moving to Indiana do you think that will cost both Andrean and Noll some of their kids?  I would think the kids from CP and especially LC that were leaving may look more at Iliana now that they are even more so in their back yard, especially if they make the jump to the IHSAA as they have had some pretty good success in several sports over the years if I remember right

doubt that catholics will go to a christian school.  

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22 minutes ago, DrivenT said:

doubt that catholics will go to a christian school.  

I would venture to say there are a many non Catholics at both schools

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Just now, iubirdman said:

I would venture to say there are a many non Catholics at both schools

Possibly.  Im not sure why a non Catholic family would send their kid to Andrean given all the nice public schools in the area.  The schools are bigger, newer, cleaner and have much better facilities overall than Andrean.  Teachers are higher paid and likely better educated.  Andrean really needs to up their game to protect their future.  They desperately need the diocese to come thru with the cash for a new school.  And soon.  

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9 minutes ago, DrivenT said:

Possibly.  Im not sure why a non Catholic family would send their kid to Andrean given all the nice public schools in the area.  The schools are bigger, newer, cleaner and have much better facilities overall than Andrean.  Teachers are higher paid and likely better educated.  Andrean really needs to up their game to protect their future.  They desperately need the diocese to come thru with the cash for a new school.  And soon.  

Championship banners are much easier to come by in 1A/2A/3A than they are in 4A/5A/6A.  If you can go to Andrean, Noll, Marquette, etc. and win a championship (which makes moms and dads happy because they think that puts their kid in front of a lot more college recruiters), then fancy new schools, facilities, and higher paid teachers don’t even factor into the discussion.  A Catholic education is secondary to athletic success in the eyes of many who send their children to Catholic schools today, especially those that do so with voucher assistance.

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3 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

Championship banners are much easier to come by in 1A/2A/3A than they are in 4A/5A/6A.  If you can go to Andrean, Noll, Marquette, etc. and win a championship (which makes moms and dads happy because they think that puts their kid in front of a lot more college recruiters), then fancy new schools, facilities, and higher paid teachers don’t even factor into the discussion.  A Catholic education is secondary to athletic success in the eyes of many who send their children to Catholic schools today, especially those that do so with voucher assistance.

But it still comes down to talent.  Recruiters recognize the 30 point scorer or the 2000 yard rusher who pile up their stats against inferior small town competition, as opposed to the kid who scores 12 ppg or rushed for 900 yards against big school competition.  

Do championships really mean that much to college recruiters, especially in this age of AAU, camps, travel teams etc?  

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36 minutes ago, DrivenT said:

But it still comes down to talent.  Recruiters recognize the 30 point scorer or the 2000 yard rusher who pile up their stats against inferior small town competition, as opposed to the kid who scores 12 ppg or rushed for 900 yards against big school competition.  

Do championships really mean that much to college recruiters, especially in this age of AAU, camps, travel teams etc?  

No, that’s why I said “which makes moms and dads happy because they think that puts their kid in front of a lot more college recruiters.”  Parents are the ones making the choice to send their kids there, often with delusions of collegiate scholarships.  If their kid is good, they will get recruited anywhere.  Parents of other athletes who may not be as talented want to be a part of that championship program because they think it will be their kid’s ticket.  They wouldn’t have that opportunity at a much larger school, partly because they might not make the team, and because post-season wins are a lot harder to come by in the bigger classes.  That makes the smaller Catholic schools an attractive option, and vouchers make that option more viable.  That results in a larger percentage of the student population at those schools being from non-Catholic families. 

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2 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

No, that’s why I said “which makes moms and dads happy because they think that puts their kid in front of a lot more college recruiters.”  Parents are the ones making the choice to send their kids there, often with delusions of collegiate scholarships.  If their kid is good, they will get recruited anywhere.  Parents of other athletes who may not be as talented want to be a part of that championship program because they think it will be their kid’s ticket.  They wouldn’t have that opportunity at a much larger school, partly because they might not make the team, and because post-season wins are a lot harder to come by in the bigger classes.  That makes the smaller Catholic schools an attractive option, and vouchers make that option more viable.  That results in a larger percentage of the student population at those schools being from non-Catholic families. 

Great explanation, and more cannonfodder as to why the "bro culture" rules in coaching in this era.  Old school coaches wouldn't put up with all this crap, which is why they have bailed in huge numbers over the past 5 years.  

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You also have kids and parents that will do better in a smaller environment, big difference between a school of 500 and 3000 (2700 at CP and 3300 at LC).  When you could get a voucher up to 5000 and tuition at Andrean and Noll both being 8800 I can see some just going there for the smaller environment.  Iliana is about $800 a year more, but if you live in LC or CP district, you could make that up in gas and drive time--in addition to being a brand new building

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So apparently narcissistic parents are to blame.  

I would concur with that.  

 

 

 

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Maybe need to start to look at 8 player teams, I do like the waiver idea as well, allowing kids that want too play an opp to play at area school.

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I sure hope we don't go to 8 man in Indiana.  It takes great athletes to cover the field in 8 man.  Do you think these schools with 20 boy  rosters , including 10 freshman, are loaded with great athletic talent?  

Everybody points to the 8 man football that is played on the plains of Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado.  Its taken 100 years to get to the level of competition they enjoy in 8 man, with great traditions to boot.  That will never happen in Indiana, not in the current environment where everything is contracting.  

The simple solution is to allow a temporary waiver for this season, and then give kids the opportunity to transfer for next season if they want to continue to play.  

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12 hours ago, DrivenT said:

Possibly.  Im not sure why a non Catholic family would send their kid to Andrean given all the nice public schools in the area.  The schools are bigger, newer, cleaner and have much better facilities overall than Andrean.  Teachers are higher paid and likely better educated.  Andrean really needs to up their game to protect their future.  They desperately need the diocese to come thru with the cash for a new school.  And soon.  

I couldn't agree more.

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19 hours ago, DrivenT said:

There is not much talent in Hammond, if you look at the rosters of the public schools and the recruiting results over the past 5 to 10 years.  EC had a nice run 5 years ago but that talent pool has gone dry as well.  Gary football is now non existent, and Merrillville is going thru its worst competitive stretch in 50 years.  Andrean's enrollment is in decline year over year now for the past 3 to 5 years.  Aging campus and poor facilities are at the core, as is the constant turnover within the administrative and executive leadership at the school.  These ongoing issues are costing Andrean students.  

I would agree that Crown Point and Lake Central are the feeder schools for the Andrean program, with Munster and Highland also contributing.  

Andrean is in desperate need of a move to a new location.  I would think this is a very high priority with the Gary Diocese, especially given these new developments with the Noll program.  

I believe the diocese decided to leave Andrean where it is and do fund raising to improve facilities.  It is very hard to raise $40 million or more for a new high school.  We tried it in SB and there is still a $2.5 million dollar loan to pay off.

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Posted (edited)

The word around town in recent years is that Andrean has mismanaged money at times, almost to the point that their had even informal discussions about dissolving the school. And I fully agree that the facilities have long had me wondering how they continue to produce such competitive teams nearly every year even in the face of relatively high turnover. Once they built up their brand coaches like Wally McCormack, Brett St. Germain, and Phil Mason all took off for the relative comforts of public schools. 

What's the locker room situation now at 5959 Broadway?

I remember going to Andrean in week 8 of 2002 and playing a 59er team that frankly could have beaten most anyone that year regardless of class. That team was loaded with guys that played on Saturdays. 

Tommy Finn, Nick Stockwell, Darrell Tinner, Rob Caldwell, Brett Goins and that great team beat us 35-6 in a patch of fog that settled over the field and caused mayhem to ensue. You could barely see the stands and forget seeing the school in the short distance. What I remember most about that game was the visiting locker rooms that you had to trot all the way back to the school to use. And they were pretty bad with a very low ceiling and exposed pipes and broken tiles and man it was a mess. Slightly worse than North Newton's accommodations where they had you changing in a hallway of the school. Maybe it's Andrean and Noll that should merge and just play under one umbrella mascot and utilize the best facilities of both campuses. Noll is right there in thick of it though as you can see it off the toll road just before the Illinois border, probably not equipped to take on any kind of surge in enrollment with lesser facilities.

Edited by silvertone1696

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I think we start kids way to young playing football.  We can blame it on demographics and soccer and all kind of stuff , but when kids have 6 years of football before they even enter high school we have an issue. Kids are getting burnt out before competition for us ever began. I think it’s time we go back old school and let kids be kids and save sports for teens

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we believe at our school that youth football should be reserved for FLAG in grades 2-5th grade

6-7-8th graders play middle school tackle 

9-12 H.S.  

Flag Football league goes for 8 weeks in the Fall:   2 hours on a Sunday afternoon:  1 hour practice prior to game, then 1 hour game.   They get T shirts and have a cookout at end of the year.  Free to get in for parents/spectators.   We take H.S. kids who want to volunteer to be coaches and connect with kids in the community.   Price:  $50 total.  

I have heard horror stories of $500+ for 2nd graders to play tackle football.   serves NO PURPOSE

Don't get me wrong, some real good youth football coaches and then there is the opposite of that.   I have seen it happen too often that a 2nd/3rd grade kid has a bad experience with a poor youth coach and is done forever with the sport.   Thats a real shame 

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RC has a pop Warner when I coached years ago.  I like flag football better for youth but four weeks would be plenty. I see lots of people act like it’s a feeder and get them ready but it doesn’t work that way and honestly the chances of the same coaches being in highschool 10 years down the road or even the same schemes are more and more unlikely these days

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16 minutes ago, bigjay said:

RC has a pop Warner when I coached years ago.  I like flag football better for youth but four weeks would be plenty. I see lots of people act like it’s a feeder and get them ready but it doesn’t work that way and honestly the chances of the same coaches being in highschool 10 years down the road or even the same schemes are more and more unlikely these days

Really?

Do we actually have schemes for 4th grade flag football?

Taking ourselves a bit too seriously

 

LOL

 

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I see lots of people say that their youth league is learning to run the high school offense. But what I was saying is that with the huge coaching turnover now days that even if you could do that, the chance of the coach or scheme being the same is slim

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5 hours ago, bigjay said:

I think we start kids way to young playing football.  We can blame it on demographics and soccer and all kind of stuff , but when kids have 6 years of football before they even enter high school we have an issue. Kids are getting burnt out before competition for us ever began. I think it’s time we go back old school and let kids be kids and save sports for teens

Is that really that much different from when we were kids?  I started playing ball, tackle ball, in Louisiana, in 2nd grade.  In that league, plays were shuttled in from the sideline and no coaches were on the fields.  That was the standard for sports across the city in the 70s.  City-wide all-star football teams started in 4th grade.  And I wouldn't consider Louisiana to be a football state.  Same was true when we moved to Texas, which might be a bit skewed being a football state.

4 hours ago, bigjay said:

I see lots of people say that their youth league is learning to run the high school offense. But what I was saying is that with the huge coaching turnover now days that even if you could do that, the chance of the coach or scheme being the same is slim

In the 16 seasons that I've coached youth ball, the high school head coaches have never asked to have schemes or anything else done at the youth level that was done at the high school level.  They have, however, all asked us to focus on things like proper blocking and tackling techniques and understanding how all the pieces fit together.  What you said was actually stated to us by more than one of those coaches ... there's no guarantees that by the time that your youth players get to high school that that coach would still be there.  Matter of fact, I think there have been five high school head coaches,not including the current one, in the time that I've coached in the youth league and only two of those five ended up seeing kids play in the youth league that would eventually also play for that head coach.

5 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

we believe at our school that youth football should be reserved for FLAG in grades 2-5th grade

6-7-8th graders play middle school tackle 

9-12 H.S.  

Flag Football league goes for 8 weeks in the Fall:   2 hours on a Sunday afternoon:  1 hour practice prior to game, then 1 hour game.   They get T shirts and have a cookout at end of the year.  Free to get in for parents/spectators.   We take H.S. kids who want to volunteer to be coaches and connect with kids in the community.   Price:  $50 total.  

I have heard horror stories of $500+ for 2nd graders to play tackle football.   serves NO PURPOSE

Don't get me wrong, some real good youth football coaches and then there is the opposite of that.   I have seen it happen too often that a 2nd/3rd grade kid has a bad experience with a poor youth coach and is done forever with the sport.   Thats a real shame 

That's the other big thing that we try to do in the youth program.  Try to make sure that the kids learn about the sport, themselves, and come back for the next season.  The four groups of LCC teams practice on the same swath of ground.  Our former youth program director once explained the ultimate goal of the experience that we provide is to help shepherd the 3rd/4th graders to the 5th/6th grade practice area, shepherd the 5th/6th graders to the junior high practice area, and the junior high players to the varsity area ... and that mission also includes shepherding the moms too.  He would say if the kids didn't have fun and grow, there wasn't anyway that they would want to progress to the next levels and, if we couldn't keep their kids safe, growing, and respected, then there was probably no way that the moms would let them move to those next levels.  

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We didn’t play until 6Th grade and literally had 2 games. Knox at home and Knox away. Some of us bigger kids played up on 7th. 

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