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bobref

Scrimmage kick formation

Question

Posted (edited)

4th and 6 from the B-15 yard line. Team A lines up for field goal

Holder A15  has his knee 6 inches off the ground 

A60 is snapper
A45 and A66 are guards
A77 and A70 are tackles 
A86 and A80 are tight ends 
A81 and A89 are wings
A6 is holder lining up at B-22
A3 is kicker who is lining up at B-24

Ball is snapped to holder A6 who immediately flips the ball forward to wing A81 who is moving across the formation behind the neutral zone. He catches it and runs for a TD. At the snap, defensive lineman B65 charges directly into snapper A60.

Ruling?

Edited by bobref

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2 hours ago, bobref said:

4th and 6 from the B-15 yard line. Team A lines up for field goal

Holder A15  has his knee 6 inches off the ground 

A60 is snapper
A45 and A66 are guards
A77 and A70 are tackles 
A86 and A80 are tight ends 
A81 and A89 are wings
A6 is holder lining up at B-22
A3 is kicker who is lining up at B-24

Ball is snapped to holder A15 who immediately flips the ball forward to wing A81 who is moving across the formation behind the neutral zone. He catches it and runs for a TD. At the snap, defensive lineman B65 charges directly into snapper A60.

Ruling?

My “educated” guess is that the holder is the key here. If his knee were on the ground, making this an actual kicking formation, B65 would be flagged. But with the knee off the ground, he is a qb, and the TD stands. 

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Just now, Irishman said:

My “educated” guess is that the holder is the key here. If his knee were on the ground, making this an actual kicking formation, B65 would be flagged. But with the knee off the ground, he is a qb, and the TD stands. 

A lot of good stuff in this answer. But, no.

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34 minutes ago, bobref said:

A lot of good stuff in this answer. But, no.

I figured. :13_v:

Second guess then, TD stands, penalty assessed on B on the kickoff/next timed play. 

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1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I figured. :13_v:

Second guess then, TD stands, penalty assessed on B on the kickoff/next timed play. 

Second answer: no  :14_v:

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20 minutes ago, bobref said:

Second answer: no  :14_v:

:10_v::13_v:

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Irishman was so close with his first guess! I'll give up the holder is the key here, but he went the wrong direction with it.

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Posted (edited)

Illegal formation on A. This is not a legal scrimmage kick formation, thus they are not granted the numbering exception. Obviously will be accepted, 4/11 from B's 20.

I had this arise in a game several years back. Hint to coaches when the R asks you before the game if you have any unusual plays, that would be a good time to bring this up. 

Edited by Impartial_Observer

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If A6 has his knee on the ground this is a legal formation. You can still execute this play legally if A6 stands up before pitching the ball forward. Then you also have roughing the snapper enforced on the try or succeeding kickoff.

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14 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Illegal formation on A. This is not a legal scrimmage kick formation, thus they are not granted the numbering exception. Obviously will be accepted, 4/11 from B's 20.

I had this arise in a game several years back. Hint to coaches when the R asks you before the game if you have any unusual plays, that would be a good time to bring this up. 

Coaches, please take heed.

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When this is talked about I always wonder how you judge the second part of the scrimmage  formation that says

A player is 10 yards or more behind the LOS and in position to receive the long snap. In this senerio the kicker is 9 yards back. Is it going to be called with someone at 9 yards? Just wondering. If the”kicker” is at 10 is this still a foul? He’s back there and could get the snap?

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2 hours ago, Huge football fan said:

When this is talked about I always wonder how you judge the second part of the scrimmage  formation that says

A player is 10 yards or more behind the LOS and in position to receive the long snap. In this senerio the kicker is 9 yards back. Is it going to be called with someone at 9 yards? Just wondering. If the”kicker” is at 10 is this still a foul? He’s back there and could get the snap?

If the player is directly in line with the snapper, with no holder in position, i don’t think anyone is going to nit-pick half a yard. But if he’s offset, like every place-kicker is, and there’s a holder there, then the holder is the key.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bobref said:

If the player is directly in line with the snapper, with no holder in position, i don’t think anyone is going to nit-pick half a yard. But if he’s offset, like every place-kicker is, and there’s a holder there, then the holder is the key.

Rule says 10 yards I don’t think the holder has anything to do with it and this is nit picking from the start. The rule is written that way to stop the A11 not to stop a team on 4th and whatever from lining up in a “fog formation” to run a trick play

Edited by Huge football fan

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4 minutes ago, Huge football fan said:

Rule says 10 yards I don’t think the holder has anything to do with it and this is nit picking from the start. The rule is written that way to stop the A11 not to stop a team on 4th and whatever from lining up in a “fog formation” to run a trick play

My point is that if the holder is there, you can logically assume this is the field goal variant of scrimmage kick formation. If the holder doesn't have his knee on the ground, then I'm not going to let the kicker dictate that this is SKF unless he complies with every aspect of the rule. So he's going to have to be 10 yds., and he's going to have to be in position to receive a direct snap, i.e., in a direct line with the snapper. Otherwise, it's not SKF and there's no protection for the snapper.

The bigger challenge for officials is not the enforcement of the rule, but communicating to the crew whether the offense is in SKF. Each crew should have a way of communicating that to all members of the crew.

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6 minutes ago, bobref said:

My point is that if the holder is there, you can logically assume this is the field goal variant of scrimmage kick formation. If the holder doesn't have his knee on the ground, then I'm not going to let the kicker dictate that this is SKF unless he complies with every aspect of the rule. So he's going to have to be 10 yds., and he's going to have to be in position to receive a direct snap, i.e., in a direct line with the snapper. Otherwise, it's not SKF and there's no protection for the snapper.

The bigger challenge for officials is not the enforcement of the rule, but communicating to the crew whether the offense is in SKF. Each crew should have a way of communicating that to all members of the crew.

I’ve seen an official with a protractor out there. I can see where there is a argument by coaches that the kicker is 10 yards back which they usually are and how direct is “directly in line”? They are usually 2 steps offset but still plenty close enough to catch a snap from 10 yards. 

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Just now, Huge football fan said:

I’ve seen an official with a protractor out there.

Well, I suppose if Gene Steratore can use an index card in the Super Bowl, an official can use a protractor, too. :14_v:

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3 hours ago, Huge football fan said:

I’ve seen an official with a protractor out there. I can see where there is a argument by coaches that the kicker is 10 yards back which they usually are and how direct is “directly in line”? They are usually 2 steps offset but still plenty close enough to catch a snap from 10 yards. 

Spirit of the rules?

Don't split hairs, but then again if the pitcher throws it in the river, I'll give it to her all day. 

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5 hours ago, Huge football fan said:

I’ve seen an official with a protractor out there. I can see where there is a argument by coaches that the kicker is 10 yards back which they usually are and how direct is “directly in line”? They are usually 2 steps offset but still plenty close enough to catch a snap from 10 yards. 

A decent long snapper can also snap the ball at a 45 degree angle, but that has nothing to do with the intent of the rule. The idea is that if the offense is going to be entitled to protection for the snapper, and to take advantage of the numbering exceptions available in SKF, they are going to have to play it straight. Don't be a "rulebook" official. If the kicker is offset from the snapper, and there's a holder in place, then the holder dictates whether it's SKF.

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On 8/3/2018 at 1:45 PM, Impartial_Observer said:

Illegal formation on A. This is not a legal scrimmage kick formation, thus they are not granted the numbering exception. Obviously will be accepted, 4/11 from B's 20.

I had this arise in a game several years back. Hint to coaches when the R asks you before the game if you have any unusual plays, that would be a good time to bring this up. 

NOOOOOOOO! You beat me to it.  #45 stuck out like a sore thumb!

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1 hour ago, Canoe Fest Charlie said:

Is this even an eligible formation? Can #45 be on the interior?

Yes under the numbering exception in SKF. 

In a normal scrimmage play, 45 could be the snapper, provide the have five numbered 50-79 on the line. 

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