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Just let your play on the field do the talking!  Most of the time gestures like this are the things that cause the fights on the field.  Kudos to the officials for enforcing these penalties.  Definitely need more of it!!

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29 minutes ago, BTF said:

So making a first down gesture is a penalty?

Yes. If you can get to him quickly and shut it down you may make it a talk-to with a stern warning. Celebrate with teammates or get to your sideline. HS rules generally don't tolerate much like NFL and to a lesser extent NCAA do. Signaling first down is calling attention to yourself even if you aren't doing it toward your opponent. Don't want to force the official to make a decision on something like that then don't do it. But if you they flag it you only have yourself to blame.

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3 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Yes. If you can get to him quickly and shut it down you may make it a talk-to with a stern warning. Celebrate with teammates or get to your sideline. HS rules generally don't tolerate much like NFL and to a lesser extent NCAA do. Signaling first down is calling attention to yourself even if you aren't doing it toward your opponent. Don't want to force the official to make a decision on something like that then don't do it. But if you they flag it you only have yourself to blame.

 

3 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Yes. If you can get to him quickly and shut it down you may make it a talk-to with a stern warning. Celebrate with teammates or get to your sideline. HS rules generally don't tolerate much like NFL and to a lesser extent NCAA do. Signaling first down is calling attention to yourself even if you aren't doing it toward your opponent. Don't want to force the official to make a decision on something like that then don't do it. But if you they flag it you only have yourself to blame.

Thanks for the info on that. I'm not sure I've ever seen a kid get flagged for doing that. It must be arbitrary depending on the official. 

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4 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I’ve got to disagree, I know for a fact this past spring I was the worst official in the state. I was told by the winning coach in a 12-0 Softball game. And just to show you how bad I really am, I was on the bases!

Well, you weren't the worst official on Friday Night,  you got that going for you, I thought your crew did an awesome job.  Thank you for your service to High School Sports.

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1 minute ago, combthehair said:

At 1:50:30 he spiked it. That’s going to and should get flagged every time. The kid was excited after a huge run. Don’t blame him for being excited but can’t spike the ball. 

I was referring to the second penalty. According to Just Rules, a first down gesture is a penalty. I've never seen it enforced though. So that one must be arbitrary. I agree that spiking the ball is a penalty, I just don't agree that it should be. Do I prefer to see a kid hand it to an official? Sure. But I don't see too much harm in spiking a ball.

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8 hours ago, BTF said:

I witnessed something a bit different in the Snider/North Side game. The panthers learned not to have fun or show any swagger. They received penalties for both and it really slowed their momentum down. Remember officials, football really is supposed to be fun. You're there to do a job, we get that. But don't get overly flag happy. Let kids celebrate. And if a kid makes a first down gesture, who cares as long as they're not jawing at their counterparts. 

The players in the video need the “act like you’ve been there before speech”

 

Football isn’t supposed to be fun, you know what’s fun winning and dominating your opponent 

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Just now, BTF said:

I was referring to the second penalty. According to Just Rules, a first down gesture is a penalty. I've never seen it enforced though. So that one must be arbitrary. I agree that spiking the ball is a penalty, I just don't agree that it should be. Do I prefer to see a kid hand it to an official? Sure. But I don't see too much harm in spiking a ball.


I can see why they have spiking it as penalty. It’s easier just to say that it’s not allowed at all then to have to try to find an arbitrary point. But, I didn’t think his spiking it was other than excitement over just having an awesome run and he was fired up. It wasn’t directed at anyone. But yeah, umps had to call it. 
 

Without knowing the context and what was being said on the field I can’t say for sure on the second. That one gesture, on its own, I don’t think was flag worthy. But I don’t know what was going on on the field. Looks like they had a conversation before calling it. 

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33 minutes ago, BTF said:

 

Thanks for the info on that. I'm not sure I've ever seen a kid get flagged for doing that. It must be arbitrary depending on the official. 

Yes it's arbitrary but it should be flagged. He's giving you a nice break if he doesn't flag it. I've now seen the play and what he did for the second foul was not a simple first down signal. It was a delayed action that completely warranted a flag. That was a no-brainer. Complaining about it in an online forum and the announcers giving their opinion of the call contribute to the constant lack of respect given to officials when they are doing their job correctly. The announcers were flat wrong but non-officials listening to them treat them as authorities and assume the crew was wrong. This gives fans fuel to complain about it as well.

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5 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Yes it's arbitrary but it should be flagged. He's giving you a nice break if he doesn't flag it. I've now seen the play and what he did for the second foul was not a simple first down signal. It was a delayed action that completely warranted a flag. That was a no-brainer. Complaining about it in an online forum and the announcers giving their opinion of the call contribute to the constant lack of respect given to officials when they are doing their job correctly. The announcers were flat wrong but non-officials listening to them treat them as authorities and assume the crew was wrong. This gives fans fuel to complain about it as well.

I think you'll find that there are varying opinions as to what an online forum is for. In my opinion, no topic is off limits as long as you're respectful to the coaches, players, and officials. So let's talk contraction, I'm completely fine with that. But no where on this thread was I disrespectful to an official. See my first post on page 1. I stand by it now, tomorrow and next week. My opinion doesn't change. Rules are rules, I get that. Again, see my first post. And this is my last. Thanks all for your insight. 

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1 hour ago, Whiting89 said:

The players in the video need the “act like you’ve been there before speech”

 

Football isn’t supposed to be fun, you know what’s fun winning and dominating your opponent 

Respectfully disagree..currently trying to grow participation in the game n stop them from going online to play. Some kids may be a terrific talent on a terrible team ala Eskridge from bluffton (no disrespect) so winning n dominating can't be the only exceptions to the no fun in football rule..imho..

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8 hours ago, BTF said:

I would agree with that one. I wouldn't agree with flagging a kid for making a first down gesture. I get it, it's debatable. 

I think there was a bit more than just that. He was ejected. That said, did he get an unsportsmanlike penalty earlier in the game? If it's the gesture itself, I would agree it was not much of one, but it does look like there is an exchange with the defender standing close by. There had to be something said because the official who threw the flag did not seem to be in a very good spot to really see the kid point. 

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1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I think there was a bit more than just that. He was ejected. That said, did he get an unsportsmanlike penalty earlier in the game? If it's the gesture itself, I would agree it was not much of one, but it does look like there is an exchange with the defender standing close by. There had to be something said because the official who threw the flag did not seem to be in a very good spot to really see the kid point. 

I believe he had the UNS on the spike as well. Two UNS is an automatic ejection. He's out next week as well. Hopefully a good lesson learned for him. He looks like a great player.

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2 minutes ago, JustRules said:

I believe he had the UNS on the spike as well. Two UNS is an automatic ejection. He's out next week as well. Hopefully a good lesson learned for him. He looks like a great player.

OK...I guess I did not pay enough attention to that being the kid who spiked the ball. Thanks and I agree on both counts. 

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12 hours ago, Hoosier21 said:

Heard the Lafayette Central Catholic game had the worst officiating in the state last night.

Join the rest of the state, according to the fans I've sat next to at every game I've attended in multiple states at multiple levels (NFL, FBS, FCS, D3, HS, MS, Youth, Flag, my back yard, PS4, PS3, PS2, NES, Atari, and whatever that little handheld thing was back in the 80s). At some point it's not them, it's us.

3 hours ago, JustRules said:

Yes it's arbitrary but it should be flagged. He's giving you a nice break if he doesn't flag it. I've now seen the play and what he did for the second foul was not a simple first down signal. It was a delayed action that completely warranted a flag. That was a no-brainer.

100 percent. Context is important, and that wasn't your normal first down signal, if there is such a thing.

I'm not part of the NFL (no fun league), but at this level things can be excitable, but need to be respectful. Show me you can make great, good, average, less than average plays and still be sportsmanlike. High school sports are, in part, here to help form student athletes into good citizens. Learn to win gracefully.

On an unrelated but somewhat tangential note... last night after the GS@THS game I was in very close proximity to a kerfuffle between a (some?) THS FB players and a (some?) THS non-players (according to several THS players I ran across on the way to the locker room after the game). Those things happen, whatever. After I walked past the situation toward my vehicle I crossed paths with what turned out to be a THS Sr starter that was a significant contributor in the game. Unsolicited, he said, "Sir, I apologize, that does not represent who we are." I was somewhat taken aback by this kid leveling up in maturity and could only babble something like, "Hey, man... no big deal, things like that happen. You guys played a great game tonight." He replied, "Thank you, sir." He kept on going to the locker room. 

In that seven second interaction I learned why he's not an athlete that had to tell the stadium when he got a first down.

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First week and we already have a fan trying to tell us how to do our job.  Those flags were spot on.  As an official, I know how hard our crew works to officiate the game fairly.  We could care less who wins.  The only thing we want to do is get it right, ensure safety as best we can, and make sure the game does not get out of control.  Those flags were thrown for that reason.  If you let some taunting go here and there, it's just a down hill spiral.  Most fans and spectators don't even think about that part of officiating.  Absolutely nothing wrong with a kid being excited after a big play and celebrating with their teammates but when there is any form of taunting, it needs to be flagged.  And there is no context for the second play noted.  Maybe the kid yelled something, who knows.  Just let the officials officiate and leave them alone.  We lost like 8-9 officiating crews from last season.  You want to help Indiana High School Football?  Stop complaining about the officials.  When we screw up, we either know it or figure it out after watching film.  Nobody is harder on an official than themselves.  I promise you that.

 

And full disclosure, I was not one of the officials at this game.  

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No brainer calls IMO. Sad that the announcers saw no issue, which might explain a little bit. Kid looks like a great player, but he needs some behavior modification. It actually seems like a pretty easy fix, the coach just needs to make him hand the ball to the official after every run. If he doesn't, he comes out for the rest of the quarter. Some discipline now might just impact his future.

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On 8/20/2022 at 8:56 PM, Grover said:

There shouldn't be a kid on an IHSAA team that hasn't been coached to not do such things.  I thought both moves were worthy of flags.

 

22 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Dude you just hit it out of the park and don’t even know it. 

It's like the tagline on @CoachVeatch's posts: “You’re either coaching it, or you’re allowing it to happen.”

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8 minutes ago, foxbat said:

 

It's like the tagline on @CoachVeatch's posts: “You’re either coaching it, or you’re allowing it to happen.”

Wish I could claim that but both Belichick, and Walsh had that in their books, so I stole it from the best lol.

Hopefully everyone involved looks back and remembers how ridiculous their situations were, and growth can occur from it. Part of coaching is realizing kids are kids and they'll do silly things in the heat of the moment. We all have. Offer grace, love the kid(s), and then place the proverbial boot up the backside if necessary. Accountability is never bad. 

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