N.I.C. outlook for 2024

[BLACKGOLD2007]

So, I heard on a radio show before the games last night, Freeby said that the NIC is going to play 7 conference games?

 

Has anyone heard anything different?

 

[npcougar15]

Bremen, Glenn, Jimtown are leaving. Clay is no longer going to be a school, that means the NIC is left with:

Washington

Riley

Adams

New Prairie

Marian

St Joe

Penn 

Elkhart

7 game conference schedule for the 8 schools. 

 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, npcougar15 said:

Bremen, Glenn, Jimtown are leaving. Clay is no longer going to be a school, that means the NIC is left with:

Washington

Riley

Adams

New Prairie

Marian

St Joe

Penn 

Elkhart

7 game conference schedule for the 8 schools. 

 

Looking at the schedules this year of the schools from the "big school" division, Penn and Elkhart both full advantage of the available 4 non conference games, St. Joe played 3 teams from outside our conference and Marian played 4 teams from outside the conference for the first time this season.

Each of these schools has to find 2 teams to drop, (Morton was a filler game for Penn, not sure about Elkhart). I think a fair compromise would be 6 game conference schedule and 3 non. This is forcing Penn to make a choice of Mishawaka or Carmel.... 

Or, Penn just needs to bite the bullet and go independent in football for the time being.  I just don't see the benefit of going along with handicapping your schedule to play Washington and Riley (traditionally speaking) every year again. 

[ASJCPUMA]

This is the third time I had heard that there will be 7 conference games and 2 non conference games.  I have not heard if it will be 2 NC then 7 C or another way.

Elkhart played Massilon, Ohio and  Hammond Morton this year.  SJ had FW South in week 2 and this was first year of 4.  Week 8 has been Culver Academy so who goes? 

It seems AD's will be making scheduling changes with other schools.

I also have heard baseball will play each other NIC school 2 times home/home

 

 

[Rocket]

I think it’s time to break the conference up and everyone find a new home.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:02 PM, Rocket said:

I think it’s time to break the conference up and everyone find a new home.

I agree, but the SB schools and the Catholic schools could band together to have a small conference.  Because where do they go?  All independent?

Maybe St. Joe and Marian can join the new small school conference that Glenn, Bremen and Jimtown are leaving for. 

Would the NLC consider St. Joe and Marian?

I think NP and Penn to the DAC is a good option, Elkhart will likely go to the NLC. 

[00NWP]

I think St. Joe and Marian would be excellent fits in the NLC....however, I don't think the NLC would like to give up its 2 non conference games nor split the conference into divisions.  I really feel bad for those schools "left" behind or left on an island. Penn would be fine as on its own and would have no issues scheduling a full season, however, St. Joe and Marian and currently Elkhart would find it a bit more difficult as they are not "bringing" much to the table for other teams.  On another thread there are those who feel Warsaw is a better fit in a Ft. Wayne conference ( I am not one of those) and if that were to happen, I could see St. Joe / Marian / NP / Elkhart make a serious effort into joining the conference to replace them.

[npcougar15]

NIC is dead. The only way to fix the issue that makes sense is a complete restructure of michiana conferences. Not going to happen but this is what it would look like.

Conference A: Penn, Elkhart, Mishawaka, Warsaw, Goshen, Adams, Riley, Washington

Conference B: Marian, St. Joe, New Prairie, Concord, Northwood, Northridge, Plymouth, (idealy CMA but also Jimtown, Wawasee in the last spot)

Conference c Bremen, Glenn, Tippy Valley, Rochester, Laville, Knox, (idealy Jimtown and Wawasee but maybe a Triton, Culver or Fairfield if one of the better fits goes to conference B.)

But in a more realistic scenario, I'd love for New Prairie to get to the NLC if Wawassee were to join the new NSC at some point.  The only schools in the new NIC that NP can relate too are St. Joe and Marian and if they are gone NP is better off going there own way. 

[PDB26]

2 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I agree, but the SB schools and the Catholic schools could band together to have a small conference.  Because where do they go?  All independent?

Maybe St. Joe and Marian can join the new small school conference that Glenn, Bremen and Jimtown are leaving for. 

Would the NLC consider St. Joe and Marian?

I think NP and Penn to the DAC is a good option, Elkhart will likely go to the NLC. 

To your point, and despite the fact that the conference doesn't--and won't--make sense, there aren't a lot of other logical landing places for the members. The NIC is a collection of inconsistent and largely underachieving football programs. I'm having a hard time seeing why conferences would entertain adding any of the members outside of New Prairie, Penn, and maybe the combination of Marian and St. Joe for the new small school conference--if those two can overcome any potential hangups about adding parochial schools in the new conference.

New Prairie is interesting to me. I think they would be competitive punching up in the DAC, but they're pretty much on an island if they don't fit in there. 

The further along we get with Elkhart the more they look like an even more disappointing South Bend program, so I'd avoid adding them if I'm the NLC--even under the hypothetical where Warsaw has left the conference. 

The only beneficial football arrangement for Penn is to get into the DAC.

Edited October 2, 2023 by PDB26

[BLACKGOLD2007]

4 hours ago, PDB26 said:

To your point, and despite the fact that the conference doesn't--and won't--make sense, there aren't a lot of other logical landing places for the members. The NIC is a collection of inconsistent and largely underachieving football programs. I'm having a hard time seeing why conferences would entertain adding any of the members outside of New Prairie, Penn, and maybe the combination of Marian and St. Joe for the new small school conference--if those two can overcome any potential hangups about adding parochial schools in the new conference.

New Prairie is interesting to me. I think they would be competitive punching up in the DAC, but they're pretty much on an island if they don't fit in there. 

The further along we get with Elkhart the more they look like an even more disappointing South Bend program, so I'd avoid adding them if I'm the NLC--even under the hypothetical where Warsaw has left the conference. 

The only beneficial football arrangement for Penn is to get into the DAC.

To you, does it make sense for Penn to explore independence in Football but remain an NIC member in other sports?

[BLACKGOLD2007]

5 hours ago, npcougar15 said:

NIC is dead. The only way to fix the issue that makes sense is a complete restructure of michiana conferences. Not going to happen but this is what it would look like.

Conference A: Penn, Elkhart, Mishawaka, Warsaw, Goshen, Adams, Riley, Washington

Conference B: Marian, St. Joe, New Prairie, Concord, Northwood, Northridge, Plymouth, (idealy CMA but also Jimtown, Wawasee in the last spot)

Conference c Bremen, Glenn, Tippy Valley, Rochester, Laville, Knox, (idealy Jimtown and Wawasee but maybe a Triton, Culver or Fairfield if one of the better fits goes to conference B.)

But in a more realistic scenario, I'd love for New Prairie to get to the NLC if Wawassee were to join the new NSC at some point.  The only schools in the new NIC that NP can relate too are St. Joe and Marian and if they are gone NP is better off going there own way. 

How about a conference made up of these teams:

Riley, Adams, Washington, Goshen, Plymouth, Wawasee, St. Joe & Marian 

The biggest outlier here is Wawasee out in the sticks, but I think we would find this conference to be more competitive then some of our current arrangements.  

[PDB26]

5 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

To you, does it make sense for Penn to explore independence in Football but remain an NIC member in other sports?

It for sure does not make sense for Penn to continue playing football in the NIC. I'd say one of Penn's biggest challenges over the past 10-15 seasons has been to adapt, evolve, and develop young players while playing in a conference that, for the most part, has not required that type of progress. I'm not sure that any of Penn's programs really benefit from the arrangement either. I need to note the format over these past 9 seasons should have been a boon to Penn given there were only five conference games in each season. Now we're staring down the barrel of a 7 conference game season like it's 2001 again.

It makes sense for Penn to explore its options. Independence would be better than being in the NIC, but that would be a close second to full membership in the DAC. Joining the DAC when invited 22 years ago would have been the visionary move--one that would have paid dividends many times over by now--so I'd say it's most sensible to see if that invitation still stands. It's important to be in a conference with like-sized schools. It's arguable that all of the DAC football teams would be no worse than the third best NIC team in any given year. The year over year familiarity is important as I think it gives the best measuring stick for program growth as compared to one off or home and homes with out of conference opponents. Those games are important, sure, but meaningful competition within the conference year over year is equally important. I'd be a little less excited about the DAC's round robin format given that leaves just one out of conference game, but I'd assume any move to bring Penn in would alter the scheduling some. Even the DAC's scheduling didn't change the overall competition would be better, and Penn could still get an Indy metro team like they used to when it was just BD and some duneland teams on the schedule. 

Because of those factors, I'm less inclined to believe that a wide-ranging and variable independent schedule serves Penn's interests better at this point. I also think that the developmental levels of the program would likely suffer in an independent arrangement--although not any more than they already do. Penn's freshman are playing Elkhart (twice!) and Edwardsburg this year. I might be wrong, but yikes. 

As you noted earlier, Penn's other teams travel often to The Region, Fort Wayne, Indianapolis and elsewhere as a part of their schedules. It's necessary because there are so many more competitions in most other sports. Schedules would change slightly, but the rest of Penn's programs would still have a significant number of local games even if they were in the DAC.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

16 hours ago, PDB26 said:

It for sure does not make sense for Penn to continue playing football in the NIC. I'd say one of Penn's biggest challenges over the past 10-15 seasons has been to adapt, evolve, and develop young players while playing in a conference that, for the most part, has not required that type of progress. I'm not sure that any of Penn's programs really benefit from the arrangement either. I need to note the format over these past 9 seasons should have been a boon to Penn given there were only five conference games in each season. Now we're staring down the barrel of a 7 conference game season like it's 2001 again.

It makes sense for Penn to explore its options. Independence would be better than being in the NIC, but that would be a close second to full membership in the DAC. Joining the DAC when invited 22 years ago would have been the visionary move--one that would have paid dividends many times over by now--so I'd say it's most sensible to see if that invitation still stands. It's important to be in a conference with like-sized schools. It's arguable that all of the DAC football teams would be no worse than the third best NIC team in any given year. The year over year familiarity is important as I think it gives the best measuring stick for program growth as compared to one off or home and homes with out of conference opponents. Those games are important, sure, but meaningful competition within the conference year over year is equally important. I'd be a little less excited about the DAC's round robin format given that leaves just one out of conference game, but I'd assume any move to bring Penn in would alter the scheduling some. Even the DAC's scheduling didn't change the overall competition would be better, and Penn could still get an Indy metro team like they used to when it was just BD and some duneland teams on the schedule. 

Because of those factors, I'm less inclined to believe that a wide-ranging and variable independent schedule serves Penn's interests better at this point. I also think that the developmental levels of the program would likely suffer in an independent arrangement--although not any more than they already do. Penn's freshman are playing Elkhart (twice!) and Edwardsburg this year. I might be wrong, but yikes. 

As you noted earlier, Penn's other teams travel often to The Region, Fort Wayne, Indianapolis and elsewhere as a part of their schedules. It's necessary because there are so many more competitions in most other sports. Schedules would change slightly, but the rest of Penn's programs would still have a significant number of local games even if they were in the DAC.

Have you heard of any talks within the program and the administration of considering a move? 

Where I sit at the games, the few die-hards around our section are ready for a change, but most of the fans these days are parents or extended family. 

[PDB26]

4 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Have you heard of any talks within the program and the administration of considering a move? 

Where I sit at the games, the few die-hards around our section are ready for a change, but most of the fans these days are parents or extended family. 

I'm not plugged in by any stretch of the imagination, so the best I can do is speculate. I hope that within the program they feel there's a need for a new arrangement, and I hope the administration is taking as much interest in the discussion as they have been in stripping all the character out of the place for about a decade or more.

The die-hards are great. Almost all of them that I knew growing up have turned in their gear by now, but I have a lot of good memories of people in that group. They really got it in a way that parents and extended family just can't, especially as time goes on and we get further away from the start of the Geesman Era.

[npcougar15]

On 10/2/2023 at 5:05 PM, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

How about a conference made up of these teams:

Riley, Adams, Washington, Goshen, Plymouth, Wawasee, St. Joe & Marian 

While of a conference of:

Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, New Prairie, Concord, Mishawaka, Northwood, Northridge would be an absolute GAUNTLET I'm not too sure how appealing that is for New Prairie, Northwood, Northridge and maybe even Concord or Mishawaka. That is a TOUGH conference in every sport year in and year out. Unfortunately Penn is just such an outlier that long term there is no benefit for them to be in a conference with 4A schools; even if those schools are on the upper end of 4A. I mean that conference would probably make the most sense for Penn, not too sure the other schools are going to bite.

 

Another thing though to watch out for is the industrial developments happening over in New Carlisle. NP has grown the past decade but with the 3.5 BILLION dollar battery plant starting to be built, the acreage for other developments, and just the sheer land mass that is New Prairie schools district (I've heard New Prairie is the largest school district by acreage in Indiana. I could be wrong but it's near the top if it's not the top). NP could quickly become a 5A in the next decade or so which would change things up.

[GOLDRUSH1985]

On 10/3/2023 at 3:24 PM, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Have you heard of any talks within the program and the administration of considering a move? 

Where I sit at the games, the few die-hards around our section are ready for a change, but most of the fans these days are parents or extended family. 

I know of a lot of die- hards ready for a change. It doesn't have anything to do with  conference moving . It has to do with internal program changes . A lot of people are fed up with the butt whippings we've taken from Indy area schools along with others . 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

15 hours ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I know of a lot of die- hards ready for a change. It doesn't have anything to do with  conference moving . It has to do with internal program changes . A lot of people are fed up with the butt whippings we've taken from Indy area schools along with others . 

PREACH!

[BLACKGOLD2007]

21 hours ago, npcougar15 said:

While of a conference of:

Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, New Prairie, Concord, Mishawaka, Northwood, Northridge would be an absolute GAUNTLET I'm not too sure how appealing that is for New Prairie, Northwood, Northridge and maybe even Concord or Mishawaka. That is a TOUGH conference in every sport year in and year out. Unfortunately Penn is just such an outlier that long term there is no benefit for them to be in a conference with 4A schools; even if those schools are on the upper end of 4A. I mean that conference would probably make the most sense for Penn, not too sure the other schools are going to bite.

 

Another thing though to watch out for is the industrial developments happening over in New Carlisle. NP has grown the past decade but with the 3.5 BILLION dollar battery plant starting to be built, the acreage for other developments, and just the sheer land mass that is New Prairie schools district (I've heard New Prairie is the largest school district by acreage in Indiana. I could be wrong but it's near the top if it's not the top). NP could quickly become a 5A in the next decade or so which would change things up.

Well I think if the mid-sized schools that were listed previously were able to join together, I don't think Penn would end up being tied into the hybrid NLC elite conference. 

I think at that point Penn either goes independent in just football or in all sports or joins the DAC as a full member. 

 

[gindie]

So, if the NIC goes to 7 games next year, which one of the following gets dropped for Penn?

Mishawaka - I'd hate to see that one dropped so soon

Valpo - seems like this is a lifetime contract  🙂

Cathedral/Carmel - Can't remember if the Cathedral contract finished this year, but I believe Carmel is the eventual replacement

Edited October 7, 2023 by gindie

[ASJCPUMA]

according to one of the refs last night  it is not an if but it is 7 games in the NIC.  Someone should ask Greg Humnicky.  He is Mr. NIC

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:29 AM, gindie said:

So, if the NIC goes to 7 games next year, which one of the following gets dropped for Penn?

Mishawaka - I'd hate to see that one dropped so soon

Valpo - seems like this is a lifetime contract  🙂

Cathedral/Carmel - Can't remember if the Cathedral contract finished this year, but I believe Carmel is the eventual replacement

Probably the upcoming set with Carmel. I cannot imagine dropping the Mishawaka game so quickly after working hard to get it back on the schedule. 

[PDB26]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:29 AM, gindie said:

Mishawaka - I'd hate to see that one dropped so soon

Valpo - seems like this is a lifetime contract  🙂

Cathedral/Carmel - Can't remember if the Cathedral contract finished this year, but I believe Carmel is the eventual replacement

4 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Probably the upcoming set with Carmel. I cannot imagine dropping the Mishawaka game so quickly after working hard to get it back on the schedule. 

I can see arguments on both sides for Carmel or Mishawaka, but I'd keep Valpo and Carmel and cut the Mishawaka game loose. Whatever decision is made, this is a lose-lose proposition for the Kingsmen.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

Just now, PDB26 said:

I can see arguments on both sides for Carmel or Mishawaka, but I'd keep Valpo and Carmel and cut the Mishawaka game loose. Whatever decision is made, this is a lose-lose proposition for the Kingsmen.

I agree, but knowing our decision makers at the top, they have made some interesting decisions over the years. 

 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

18 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I agree, but knowing our decision makers at the top, they have made some interesting decisions over the years. 

 

Your Being kind calling them interesting , I have another word for some decisions made in the past . I don't see Penn dropping Valpo , but I would drop Mishawaka like a bad habit over Carmel . Most years , Carmel is going to be a better team than Mishawaka . And Penn needs to play better teams . 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 minute ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Your Being kind calling them interesting , I have another word for some decisions made in the past . I don't see Penn dropping Valpo , but I would drop Mishawaka like a bad habit over Carmel . Most years , Carmel is going to be a better team than Mishawaka . And Penn needs to play better teams . 

Agreed, I just think that this decision is going to be a true indication of where the administration stands. Drop Carmel, Penn just wants to be local champs; drop Mishawaka Penn is at least interested in testing the program against the best traditional teams in the state.  Now, the next decision is to move on from the NIC, that will be the next big choice that must be made.