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Chatard vs Knox Semi-state


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50 minutes ago, JUSTADAD17 said:

If your argument is "the school's haven't given us the opportunity" you lose the debate before it starts.

No, that isn't my argument.   My argument is compare and contrast the typical government school student body with the typical p/p school student body.   They are two different animals. 

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53 minutes ago, Lysander said:

You know, its damn hard to find Bit 'O Honey these days.  I generally have to get it direct shipped by the case.

This might last you a couple days:  https://www.amazon.com/Bit-O-Honey-Bit-O-Honey-5LBS/dp/B00CBXW3IG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=31M9SUGZAFOTP&keywords=bit+o+honey+candy+bulk+5+lbs&qid=1700095280&sprefix=bit+o'+honey+5%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-5

51Y2E3lkLqL.jpg.e1181fad75330ebd9b3d450932aea78e.jpg

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1 hour ago, JUSTADAD17 said:

If your argument is "the school's haven't given us the opportunity" you lose the debate before it starts.  CYO is just an organization....like any community.   It's involved parents that make the difference and it takes years.   You're crying "poor me" because whatever community you're from hasn't done the same.   CYO doesn't provide anything except scheduling and organization.  It's not a government problem at all.  Yoi don't need government to have an involved community or  youth sports program.   Like I said...just a convenient excuse.  What Chatard has was built over 50 years.   It doesn't happen overnight and ultimately, you can be jealous and blame the government if you want to, but that's just a smoke screen.  Chatard has done it right for a long time.   

What in the holy world?? Do you really believe what makes Chatard stand out above the others is their youth league?!? 
Really?? You think that is the special sauce that they’ve figured out that others haven’t?!? 

Wow…

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1 hour ago, jets said:

What in the holy world?? Do you really believe what makes Chatard stand out above the others is their youth league?!? 
Really?? You think that is the special sauce that they’ve figured out that others haven’t?!? 

Wow…

Then what do you think it is? Just writing a check like some others?

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It seems that Center Grove has found some secret sauce. They aren’t a P/P. I’ve inquired as to what has made them such a recent powerhouse. It seems that two things are required: a strong feeder program and a large number of participants. The strong youth programs raise the floor for the “Jimmies and the Joes” and the large number of participants increases the odds of finding those studs that can set a program apart, ie raising the ceiling. Have one of the two and you will have an occasionally great team. Have both and you can have a consistently great program. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

They have 12oz Grape Gatorade too. 

@Lysander has been banned from Menards, the last time Mrs. Lysander had to post missing flyers around the store so the manager has banned him!

9 hours ago, Muda69 said:

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That would last him at least 1 half of a game. He has come a long way and made CJB proud!

7 hours ago, tango said:

Then what do you think it is? Just writing a check like some others?

We all know that signing your name to checks really advances the fundamentals of football! Honestly what cracks me up is that people really believe 7th and 8th graders are fully developed enough in football skills to be recruited and paid to play. You know they come out of middle school benching 350 lbs and running 40's in record times. I've been scouring the CTK and St. Matthews halls for those 6'6" 280 lbs lineman that don't need their skills honed with Lysander. To heck with chasing girls and going through puberty.

On to the game Knox is and will be physical, Chatard is and will be physical. The question will be can they do it for 4 quarters and respond to the other team doing it to them. I know Chatard can they have shown that with Cathedral, Roncalli, Guerin, and Elder. We will find out with Knox. Turnovers also will be key, no extra possessions. Knox does not want to and can not afford to get into a shootout with Chatard that will be a recipe for disaster. What Knox needs is to sustain long drives (to keep the ball out of Chatard's hand) and score, then force Chatard to go on long drives and not get chunk plays. If they can do that for 4 quarters without turnovers they have a good shot at winning. Easier said than done but that should be their plan. Chatard will play their style of physical football and limit turnovers taking advantage of any turnovers they force.

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I haven’t read every post in this thread, but I believe a great feeder program is critical, great coaching is critical and numbers are critical.  Throw in community support as well. No matter what level or where you are playing.  Work wins. 

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On 11/14/2023 at 4:04 PM, Just a dad said:

Chatard has two kids that start both ways but multiple that get snaps on both sides depending on the situation. I think the 137 includes the freshman team. They started with 52 freshman and ended with 48. An absurd number of kids in a class of less than 200 (about half being boys). That’s how you know the entire school has a football culture and not just the football team. That football culture is a huge source of pride and the school identity. Everyone participates in Friday nights: Students, faculty, parents, alumni, people who just live in the neighborhood. That culture and football champion identity is why so many of the CYO kids choose to go there.

 

This is a big advantage, especially if those players are OL/DL....see it in every class and it can make a difference between winning and losing games.

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On 11/14/2023 at 1:27 PM, JUSTADAD17 said:

Question.  What prevents any school system from having a solid, consistent youth program, from having intense and accountable off season weight and conditioning programs, from hiring great coaches, and establishing a tradition?   That's what has built Chatard.   Yes...it's now 40+ years old, but there is no advantage any community can't establish over time.   Granted,  it's built in to the CYO program, but there is also CYO basketball, and  Catholics don't dominate that sport at all.  Same w volleyball.   Chatard oppresses nobody.  They just have the best program in the state, but started (and lasted 30 years) it with facilities worse than the Junction Boys.   Only recently have they moved into the 21st century.

I think most small (3A and smaller) try this model.  I think we have a pretty good youth program, a REALLY good weight/conditioning program, and a really good coaching staff that are involved with all aspects of the program (from youth to Jr. High to High School).  

What you don't probably see or understand is it's a numbers game.  Webo had about 100 tackle players this past year.  40 in 2nd/3rd, 36 in 4th/5th, and 22 in 6th grade.  

Chatard didn't build the CYO program.  The success of Chatard, Brebeuf, Guerin, Cathedral, Scecina, Roncalli, Ritter, etc. all helped in building that program.  From that point, the kids then select where they want to attend HS.  I am sure the CYO program helps with that.  You get a group of kids that all want to play together, and they go to school together.  That is an advantage that small programs don't have.  We have who we have.  Some classes are larger, some have a few more athletes.  The CYO is a large organization.  To compare the youth league of the CYO to other 2A or 3A programs isn't comparing apples to apples.  The CYO draws kids from all over the city.  Webo draws from kids from Jamestown, Thorntown, Dover... Not exactly the same population as any "side" of the city.

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2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

@Lysander has been banned from Menards, the last time Mrs. Lysander had to post missing flyers around the store so the manager has banned him!

That would last him at least 1 half of a game. He has come a long way and made CJB proud!

We all know that signing your name to checks really advances the fundamentals of football! Honestly what cracks me up is that people really believe 7th and 8th graders are fully developed enough in football skills to be recruited and paid to play. You know they come out of middle school benching 350 lbs and running 40's in record times. I've been scouring the CTK and St. Matthews halls for those 6'6" 280 lbs lineman that don't need their skills honed with Lysander. To heck with chasing girls and going through puberty.

On to the game Knox is and will be physical, Chatard is and will be physical. The question will be can they do it for 4 quarters and respond to the other team doing it to them. I know Chatard can they have shown that with Cathedral, Roncalli, Guerin, and Elder. We will find out with Knox. Turnovers also will be key, no extra possessions. Knox does not want to and can not afford to get into a shootout with Chatard that will be a recipe for disaster. What Knox needs is to sustain long drives (to keep the ball out of Chatard's hand) and score, then force Chatard to go on long drives and not get chunk plays. If they can do that for 4 quarters without turnovers they have a good shot at winning. Easier said than done but that should be their plan. Chatard will play their style of physical football and limit turnovers taking advantage of any turnovers they force.

In last years state finals it really looked like Lawrenceburg was determined to use this game plan. They had physical LBs to counter Chatard’s running game. They had a running game of their own to control the clock and keep Chatard’s offense off of the field. They got a timely turnover to keep Chatard out of the end zone and went into the half with the lead. Then they got behind. One solid Chatard drive (after a Lburg TO) on a short field changed everything. Chatard adjusted and widened their DEs, Lawrenceburg couldn’t hook the end and get the edge so they had to pass.

Astonishingly, it looked like they had never practiced the forward pass all year. It was unbelievable. They fell apart in the third quarter because they couldn’t throw the ball. I think they threw interceptions on three straight passes. Not possessions. Passes. I have spent the last year wondering why a coaching staff would spend an entire year in pursuit of a state championship and think that they could just run and play defense (I know Chatard circa 1956-2008 or whatever). It was as if they never thought that they would have to play from behind. Had they developed even a moderately complimentary passing game they probably win the state championship last year.

Honestly, I’m curious to know if Knox has the ability to not get behind and, if they do, throw the ball well enough to claw their way back into the game without crumbling under the stress. 

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16 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

In last years state finals it really looked like Lawrenceburg was determined to use this game plan. They had physical LBs to counter Chatard’s running game. They had a running game of their own to control the clock and keep Chatard’s offense off of the field. They got a timely turnover to keep Chatard out of the end zone and went into the half with the lead. Then they got behind. One solid Chatard drive (after a Lburg TO) on a short field changed everything. Chatard adjusted and widened their DEs, Lawrenceburg couldn’t hook the end and get the edge so they had to pass.

Astonishingly, it looked like they had never practiced the forward pass all year. It was unbelievable. They fell apart in the third quarter because they couldn’t throw the ball. I think they threw interceptions on three straight passes. Not possessions. Passes. I have spent the last year wondering why a coaching staff would spend an entire year in pursuit of a state championship and think that they could just run and play defense (I know Chatard circa 1956-2008 or whatever). It was as if they never thought that they would have to play from behind. Had they developed even a moderately complimentary passing game they probably win the state championship last year.

Honestly, I’m curious to know if Knox has the ability to not get behind and, if they do, throw the ball well enough to claw their way back into the game without crumbling under the stress. 

No they don't. 

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10 hours ago, tango said:

Then what do you think it is? Just writing a check like some others?

What is the secret sauce that the P/P's have over similar public counterparts?? You really don't know the answer? LOL...I can tell you it is NOT that you all have figured out you need to have a Youth program - that is happening in every good football program in the State. 

The answer is very plain and simple - the socioeconomic build-up of your student population. I have walked the halls of Memorial and I have walked the halls of SR - I can tell you they are NOT the same - not even CLOSE. Even though our enrollments might be close in #- I can tell you we are not pulling from the same population. 

And that right there folks is the biggest difference between your publics and P/P's. I believe Titan32 has coined the term "effective enrollment" 

It is NOT because you all figured out how to have a YOUTH program lol.....the arrogance 

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24 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

Astonishingly, it looked like they had never practiced the forward pass all year. It was unbelievable. They fell apart in the third quarter because they couldn’t throw the ball. I think they threw interceptions on three straight passes. Not possessions. Passes. I have spent the last year wondering why a coaching staff would spend an entire year in pursuit of a state championship and think that they could just run and play defense (I know Chatard circa 1956-2008 or whatever). It was as if they never thought that they would have to play from behind. Had they developed even a moderately complimentary passing game they probably win the state championship last year.

In Lawrenceburg's defense. The year prior they had a QB that ran their offense well and could throw the ball well when needed, he graduated. They lost to Gibson Southern (eventual State Champions) in a tight game in Regionals that year. The new QB ran the offense very well but wasn't as effective of a passer as the previous QB. They played to their strength the run though.

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11 minutes ago, jets said:

What is the secret sauce that the P/P's have over similar public counterparts?? You really don't know the answer? LOL...I can tell you it is NOT that you all have figured out you need to have a Youth program - that is happening in every good football program in the State. 

The answer is very plain and simple - the socioeconomic build-up of your student population. I have walked the halls of Memorial and I have walked the halls of SR - I can tell you they are NOT the same - not even CLOSE. Even though our enrollments might be close in #- I can tell you we are not pulling from the same population. 

And that right there folks is the biggest difference between your publics and P/P's. I believe Titan32 has coined the term "effective enrollment" 

It is NOT because you all figured out how to have a YOUTH program lol.....the arrogance 

So are you saying that a quality youth program has no beneficial effect on the HS program? The ignorance.

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32 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

So are you saying that a quality youth program has no beneficial effect on the HS program? The ignorance.

One aspect specifically relating to Catholic schools that is often overlooked is multiple K-8 feeders feeding one HS. Looking specifically at smaller classes, but the fact that one HS might have 3-4 QB’s getting quality reps in MS, 6-8 RB’s, 15-20 OL, etc. While their public school counterparts have only one feeder school so competition starts in the 7th grade. Again looking specifically at boys how many public school kids lose interest because their classmates who matured sooner dominated all those positions in MS and walked away. Then the late bloomers are beasts when they’re upperclassmen but they’ve moved on to other things. 

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3 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Last year, I started really working hard on the youth program at Rochester. Everyone better watch out in 2072. Rochester is gonna be opening up a can of whoopa$$ on everybody!!! Captain Insano shows no mercy!

Until Rochester's youth program can draw from approximately 15 High School districts within 10 miles of Rochester, you're still gonna be deficient.

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10 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

One aspect specifically relating to Catholic schools that is often overlooked is multiple K-8 feeders feeding one HS. Looking specifically at smaller classes, but the fact that one HS might have 3-4 QB’s getting quality reps in MS, 6-8 RB’s, 15-20 OL, etc. While their public school counterparts have only one feeder school so competition starts in the 7th grade. Again looking specifically at boys how many public school kids lose interest because their classmates who matured sooner dominated all those positions in MS and walked away. Then the late bloomers are beasts when they’re upperclassmen but they’ve moved on to other things. 

I agree. The thing that I think is important is that in a winning environment those kids who would quit because they don’t get playing time actually stick around to be part of the program. Some of them then grow and eventually contribute. If they don’t stick around you instead see those kids in the student section on a Friday night and wonder “what if?”. Chatard had 52 freshman play this year. Out of a class of about 100 boys. The vast majority of whom will never see a meaningful snap on a Friday night but will play for 4 years anyhow. Those that do end up playing will likely be underrsized. Chatard’s RBs are all about 5’6 150 lbs. Their CBs are of similar size. Last years starting LT weighed 215 lbs.

When we moved from another state to IN we came from a 6A school system (the largest class) and there were 350+ boys in his class. That team had 45 kids on the varsity football roster. The school averages 1 win a year. The student section on Friday nights was full of kids we coached in youth leagues who would have made that team significantly better. The youth program during his years was 45-4. Four kids are playing D1 football (multiple others are playing at lower levels of college). Three of them left before ninth grade started. They all went to the big Catholic school in the city.  It ticked me off like it ticks off many of the people in Indiana but I didn’t blame the P/P school for offering a better future for the kids. They were just benefitting from a system that was built to encourage mediocrity. A system that they chose to navigate to their benefit. 

The one thing you will find in a successful program, P/P or otherwise, is a pride, passion and love of the team. Not saying other schools don’t have it but those who don’t will never build a successful program. It is a bedrock. 

 

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1 hour ago, 1st_and_10 said:

I think most small (3A and smaller) try this model.  I think we have a pretty good youth program, a REALLY good weight/conditioning program, and a really good coaching staff that are involved with all aspects of the program (from youth to Jr. High to High School).  

What you don't probably see or understand is it's a numbers game.  Webo had about 100 tackle players this past year.  40 in 2nd/3rd, 36 in 4th/5th, and 22 in 6th grade.  

Chatard didn't build the CYO program.  The success of Chatard, Brebeuf, Guerin, Cathedral, Scecina, Roncalli, Ritter, etc. all helped in building that program.  From that point, the kids then select where they want to attend HS.  I am sure the CYO program helps with that.  You get a group of kids that all want to play together, and they go to school together.  That is an advantage that small programs don't have.  We have who we have.  Some classes are larger, some have a few more athletes.  The CYO is a large organization.  To compare the youth league of the CYO to other 2A or 3A programs isn't comparing apples to apples.  The CYO draws kids from all over the city.  Webo draws from kids from Jamestown, Thorntown, Dover... Not exactly the same population as any "side" of the city.

But here's the problem with the city CYO argument ... it doesn't explain a school like LCC.  LCC has no CYO program.  It looks exactly like every other 1A - 3A youth program around this area and draws the vast majority of players for its youth program from the three local Catholic elementary school which technically is two schools as kids go to St. Mary from K-3 then go to St. Boniface from 4-6 or to St. Lawrence for K-6.  There are a couple kids each season that come from the other Christian schools like St. James Lutheran and Faith Christian, since those schools don't have football at the youth level, and Faith may start dropping off soon since they've just started playing 8-man ball.

The LCC youth program currently plays in the 56er league with Jeff ... which I believe may also play some other area teams too.  Before that, LCC played in the Little Gridiron league which played public school programs including West Lafayette, Benton Central, Rossville before they canned football in their area, the three Harrison feeders of East Tipp, Battleground, and Klondike, Delphi, Kankakee Valley, South Newton, and Frontier.  There were also a couple of crossover seasons playing teams out of the Monticello Youth Football League.  For LCC, there's no "mix-in" of kids that "all want to play together."    Just like WeBo, they get what they get and, even a smaller group because they get ONLY the Catholic kids attending Catholic schools as LCC's youth program will not allow a kid to play on their youth team who is from another school that has a football program UNLESS that kid is planning to join the Catholic schools in the next year.  Incidentally, what most folks don't know is that LCC has situations where Catholic school families are split between public schools and LCC.  Had a kid that was in LCC's youth program and had attended Catholic schools since elementary that ended up playing ball at Harrison for high school while his sister finished her degree at LCC.  Had a family that my son played travel baseball with where the younger sons went to Catholic schools, but the older son went to public school to take advantage of a gifted and talented program at the public school that couldn't be matched by LCC.  The older eventually headed on to Jeff.  Had a kid played ball in the youth program who moved to Brookston ... that kid then played for Frontier and didn't drive back to play LCC.  In essence, there's no "all over the city" that LCC draws.  There's no "pool" ... LCC, like WeBo's youth program is limited to the kids that go to school locally.

In essence, the LCC youth program looks like all of the other 1A-3A youth programs out there based on who they draw kids from.  There's no one coming from Carmel to play youth ball at LCC.  There's no one coming in from Attica to play youth ball at LCC UNLESS they are paying tuition already in the LCSS schools.  And as someone pointed out, there's no logical reason to be paying Catholic school tuition for a 3rd grader to play youth ball ANYWHERE.  Also, seriously, if you are coming from "far away" to get into LCC so that your kid can play football at a 1A/2A school to "be a champion," then the logic is severely flawed as you'd be better off moving down to Center Grove and getting a free education, and better offers, if your kid is really that good at 3rd grade.  Again, in looking at LCC and using the CYO model argument for successful teams, it just doesn't apply.  LCC looks like every other your program in the area in terms of who they play how they are built, etc.  The only MAJOR difference that I've seen in most other programs compared to LCC is that the LCC program is less of a "dads' league" focus in the way that they run their teams and also, if they are ever fortunate enough to field two teams at a particular level, the teams are split evenly to the detriment of their season records.  What I mean by that, is other programs tend to have a "draft" of players when they have multiple teams and that always works as an adversarial event WITHIN the program.  With LCC, all of the coaches for that level get together and form equal teams with the idea that, if those teams ever had to play each other ... which incidentally they do every day at practice ... the record for both would be 5-5 for both teams playing 10 times.  Honestly,  I've never seen that happen in teams that I've coached against.

25 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

One aspect specifically relating to Catholic schools that is often overlooked is multiple K-8 feeders feeding one HS. Looking specifically at smaller classes, but the fact that one HS might have 3-4 QB’s getting quality reps in MS, 6-8 RB’s, 15-20 OL, etc. While their public school counterparts have only one feeder school so competition starts in the 7th grade. Again looking specifically at boys how many public school kids lose interest because their classmates who matured sooner dominated all those positions in MS and walked away. Then the late bloomers are beasts when they’re upperclassmen but they’ve moved on to other things. 

Similarly to the idea above, LCC's program looks more so like its public school counterparts in terms of thin K-8 feeders.  LCC on has the equivalent of two schools that turn out 6th graders and a single school that turns out 7th/8th graders.  The one difference that we've tried with this, and this goes back to another post that I had about keeping kids engaged, is that we tend to have multiple kids involved in multiple positions.  For example, in a couple of seasons, I only had enough kids for a single 3rd/4th grade team, but I practiced three QBs.  It certainly wasn't perfect, and I had my fair share of parents who thought that their kid should be starting or getting more snaps, but a big part of the game plan was that, by design, just about every game, two QBs were probably playing a half game each and, in situations where I knew the game was in hand early or possibly even before the game started, we got that third string kid in there or started the game with the second stringer.  Kept the kids engaged and kept them coming back.

As you mentioned, the late bloomers are one of the biggest issues that most teams run into either with too many kids pushing out others or the "dads' league" mentality.  My former coaching colleague and I were discussing that with a kid that played youth ball and was getting picked on because he was so small.  The coaches worked to rectify the picking part and kept the kid engaged.  By the time he hit high school, he started growing exponentially and, by his junior year, there wasn't anyone in the hallways who would even think of picking on him.  The goal for youth programs has to be how to keep those kids coming back until they grow into their skills and bodies.

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