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The p/p hegemony continues unabated


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Its pretty well understood that p/p schools do have advantages over public schools, which is why parents that are able to offer these opportunities to their children send them there as opposed to public schools.  These kids, in most cases, have excellent family support and the opportunities to flourish in safer, more structured environments. If there were no advantages, parents wouldn't send their kids there. This translates to the football field.

A better question in my eyes is what makes the public schools that are traditionally successful, competitive most years. Small schools will always have ebbs and flows in talent, class sizes etc. What do Adams Central, Linton Stockton, North Judson, Pioneer, Webo, Sheridan, Eastbrook, etc do that make them successful consistently??? Is it weight room dedication, culture, coaching, game philosophy, youth programs?

I've always been of the mindset if you don't like losing get better. Trying to make a universal system of equity isn't going to happen, nor should it in my opinion, so go out and work harder/ coach better. Build up your regular season schedule to prep for the tournament, stretch your teams in summer scrimmages, participate in 7 on 7's and most importantly get your kids competing in the offseason (track, wrestling, basketball, etc)!

 

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56 minutes ago, JQWL said:

But it's not bad enough for the private schools to stop participating in the tournament with the overzealous public school fans. I 

It reminds me of travel baseball. Private schools are the Triple-A or Major team playing in a Single-A tournament early in the season just so they can win and take the picture with the ring to appease the travel ball mom in her razor back tank top. They're ring chasers and nothing more.

Tell me more about the razor back top...in exquisite detail.

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20 minutes ago, FarmerFran said:

Its pretty well understood that p/p schools do have advantages over public schools, which is why parents that are able to offer these opportunities to their children send them there as opposed to public schools.  These kids, in most cases, have excellent family support and the opportunities to flourish in safer, more structured environments. If there were no advantages, parents wouldn't send their kids there. This translates to the football field.

A better question in my eyes is what makes the public schools that are traditionally successful, competitive most years. Small schools will always have ebbs and flows in talent, class sizes etc. What do Adams Central, Linton Stockton, North Judson, Pioneer, Webo, Sheridan, Eastbrook, etc do that make them successful consistently??? Is it weight room dedication, culture, coaching, game philosophy, youth programs?

I've always been of the mindset if you don't like losing get better. Trying to make a universal system of equity isn't going to happen, nor should it in my opinion, so go out and work harder/ coach better. Build up your regular season schedule to prep for the tournament, stretch your teams in summer scrimmages, participate in 7 on 7's and most importantly get your kids competing in the offseason (track, wrestling, basketball, etc)!

 

Outside of Adams Central, how successful have some of those teams been as of recent? Outside of Jack Kiser's years, how successful has Pioneer been in tournament play? A state runner-up, a sectional or two, and a regional? How does North Judson's success stack up against a Luers, Chatard, Lutheran, or LCC? Three straight trips to semi-state all losing by 35+. Same for Sheridan. Webo and Eastbrook can't make it out of sectionals anymore. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. All those teams are great programs with great football tradition. But they go four or five years before they go on a run again. The p/p's maybe have one down year before they are reloaded for four or five years, one down year and reloaded again. This is the difference in p/p's and publics. p/p's can get that guy or two that just takes them to a different level in the lower classes. Doesn't always happen but there is always the chance. 

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12 hours ago, Just a dad said:

Additionally, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of a school is dedicated to this special “clientele” that you refer to. Maybe 5%? Will you let the privates carve out their special “clientele”? I’m referring to the kids who fill their extra-curriculars with robotics, chess club, multiple foreign languages and the other things they need to get into ivy league schools? I bet the offset wouldn’t benefit the publics in that case. 

Odd that you view a kid that takes rigorous academic classes and participates in various extra curricular activities as a kid that needs to be "carved out".

In my eyes those kids are valuable participants at whatever school they attend.  

The point is that at some schools...there are a large proportion of kids that won't ever attend or participate in ANYTHING...sometimes even school iteself.  Public schools have to count all these kids toward their classification numbers.  The amount of these kids at a p/p is going to very small; and,  as you had mentioned previously, at many affluent suburban publics this will also be a small number.  At some high poverty urban or rural schools...this number is high.  This is the difference between public and p/p....not that kids are "recurited" or anything else.

To be clear...I was never a proponent of SF or a class "bump" for p/p's.  I would have preferred a "clearninghouse" method of counting enrollment (i.e. kids who want to participate in ANY extracurricular - football, sports, music, student gov, or even those parasitic robotics and chess club kids you despise, would be "counted" as they fill out an inschool clearing house form.). Most schools already have a code of conduct form that extracurricular kids have to complete (or something similar) so its not a hard number to determine.  This number would be used for classificaiton.  The percentage of kids in the clearinghouse would probably be very similar between Chatard, Zionsville, Brebeuf, Carmel....but drastically different at Elkhart, IPS, South Bend, etc.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, FarmerFran said:

Its pretty well understood that p/p schools do have advantages over public schools, which is why parents that are able to offer these opportunities to their children send them there as opposed to public schools.  These kids, in most cases, have excellent family support and the opportunities to flourish in safer, more structured environments. If there were no advantages, parents wouldn't send their kids there. This translates to the football field.

 

When I read the prior comments, I'm not sure it's understood. 

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Thought I'd take a look at Linton's football history in the post season just to see who takes us out every year but 1 LOL...

THis year we got knocked out by Southmont in OT.... They then went on to win at Eastern Hancock, and get beaten pretty good by North Posey...who then got beat soundly by Luers.

2022 2A SemiState-Mater Dei--- who went on to win 2A title.

2021-2A Sect 2- Mater Dei- who went on lose lose 2A State to Andrean.  

2020-2A Sect Championship-Mater Dei- Won Reg.. lost to WeBo in Semi State who went on to win State Title over Luers

2019-2A Sect 2-Mater Dei-  they would lose to Triton Central in Reg.  then lose to WeBo in Semi. WeBo won State over Eastbrook

2018-2A SEct 2- Mater Dei- who then lost to Southridge in oT Sectional championship. Raiders then won Reg but lost to WeBo in Semi.

2017-2A-Sect 2-Southridge-who beat MAter Die, Providence, then Scecina to reach 2A State-- winning over Woodlan.

2016-1A We win State over Pioneer (they beat LCC in Semi   (We beat Lutheran in Semi)

2015-1A State Finals  Lost to LCC 

2014-1A Reg- Lost to North Vermillion-  who won State over Pioneer having beaten Lutheran in Semi.

2013-1A Semi- Lost to Eastern Hancock, who lost in State Final to Tri-Central

2012-1A Semi-  Lost in OT to Scecina.   They lost to LCC again...in State Final

2011-1A Semi- Lost to Scecina.  They would lost State Final game to LCC

2010-1A Sect Champ- Lost to Perry Central, who lost to Fountain Central in Reg.  FC beat Guerin in Semi but lost to LCC again in 1A Title Game...    It was just Guerin Cath's 5th season in Football, they were still 1A!

2009-1A Reg- Lost to Fountain Central- Who lost in 1A State Final to LCC.

2008-1A Semi-  Lost to Ritter  who won State over Sheridan.

2007-1A Reg- Lost to Rockville who then beat Ritter to reach State Title...losing to Sheridan

2006-1A Sect 2- Lost to Perry Central.  PC reached the Semi where they lost to Ritter---who Lost State in OT to Sheridan.

2005-1A Sect 1- Lost to Perry CEntral.  The Commodores lost in Semi to Knightstown by 1.  Knightstown lost to Sheridan for State Title.

2004-1A Semi- Lost to Ritter in OT.  Ritter  lost State Game to Seeger.

2003 1A Sect Champ- Lost to Tecumseh.  The BRaves lost to eventual State Champ Ritter in Semi State

2002-1A Sect 1- Lost to Springs Valley, who lost to Perry Central in Sect.  PC beat Park Tudor in Reg, but lost in Semi to South Putnam...who lost in State Title to Southwood.

2001-1A SEct 1- Lost to North Daviess-  who lost to Perry Central in Sect.  PC lost State Title to Southern Wells

2000-1A Sect 1- Lost to Perry Central- who lost to Attica in Semi-- Attica lost Title Game to Adams  Central

1999-1A  Sect 1-Lost to Perry Central- who won Reg and Semi (over Ritter) but lost to LCC in State 1A Game. 

1998-1A Semi- Lost to Sheridan, who won 1A Title beating North White.

1997-1A Semi-Lost to Knightstown, who lost 1A Title to Pioneer.

What does this all mean?  Nothing I suppose other than we are not very successful against the P/P schools LOL.  Over all the games from 1997 onward we've only faced 19 P/P schools and almost all were in post-season.  We did have a 4 year series with Providence and won 3 of those.  Over-all though we've only got 6 wins against 13 losses.  Mater Dei being 5 of them, Ritter 4 (2 losses in OT), Scecina 2 (another OT loss) and the State Title loss to LCC.  Then other 3 wins came against Lutheran,  Phalen (which I really hate to count as a game in general) and St. Teresa from Decatur Ill.  this past year.   in 10 of the years listed above--27 total -- P/P won state. 6 losses were to the eventual state champ. 

I know at Linton the attitude when shifted up to 2A was to win state you have to beat the best at some point, and we will strap up against anyone. We've tried to beef up the schedule along the way, and we've been successful but just haven't been able to get over the hump (usually Mater Dei).... just as we had humps to get over in the past (Perry Central in our sectional in 1A was dominant) then the Semi final losses to Ritter 2x and Scecina 2X.   It is a fact Linton is barely in the 2A class at 386 enrolled...1A cut-off is at 378 (Park Tudor).  

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Outside of Adams Central, how successful have some of those teams been as of recent? Outside of Jack Kiser's years, how successful has Pioneer been in tournament play? A state runner-up, a sectional or two, and a regional? How does North Judson's success stack up against a Luers, Chatard, Lutheran, or LCC? Three straight trips to semi-state all losing by 35+. Same for Sheridan. Webo and Eastbrook can't make it out of sectionals anymore. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. All those teams are great programs with great football tradition. But they go four or five years before they go on a run again. The p/p's maybe have one down year before they are reloaded for four or five years, one down year and reloaded again. This is the difference in p/p's and publics. p/p's can get that guy or two that just takes them to a different level in the lower classes. Doesn't always happen but there is always the chance. 

Sounds like LCC prior to the last decade ... and mind you that LCC's been around for 60+ years.  As I pointed out in the 2A thread when someone inferred that LCC's been a strong 2A program, there's a mystique about LCC that makes everyone believe that their dominance has been eternal when it's really been more recent.  As an example, they've only been in 2A for three seasons, but are being mentioned in the same conversations with programs that have been mainstays in 2A for decades.

Here's a link to another thread where I pointed out the big gaps between any type of showing from LCC since 1976 and prior to the four-peat, 2009-2012:

Prior to the four-peat era, LCC had gaps of 13, 10, and 6 years between ANY post-season showings ...e.g., LCC had a 13-year gap between its 1976 state title and the next time it got out of sectionals in 1989 and then another 10-year gap before it ever got out of sectionals again in 1999.  It's taken LCC the better part of just under half a century to get to a point where they are in the "reload" conversation, yet they are almost always talked about as if they've been reloading since inception.

As for Pioneer, it's kind of a misnomer to say that Pioneer only has a handful of sectionals like they weren't all that good except in those years that they won.  LCC and Pioneer were often in the same sectional/regional ending each others' seasons prematurely.  There are times where Pioneer was ranked #1 and didn't make it out of sectionals ... not because they were not a strong or dominant team, but because the state championship game kind of got played in the sectionals.

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37 minutes ago, US31 said:

Odd that you view a kid that takes rigorous academic classes and participates in various extra curricular activities as a kid that needs to be "carved out".

In my eyes those kids are valuable participants at whatever school they attend.  

The point is that at some schools...there are a large proportion of kids that won't ever attend or participate in ANYTHING...sometimes even school iteself.  Public schools have to count all these kids toward their classification numbers.  The amount of these kids at a p/p is going to very small; and,  as you had mentioned previously, at many affluent suburban publics this will also be a small number.  At some high poverty urban or rural schools...this number is high.  This is the difference between public and p/p....not that kids are "recurited" or anything else.

To be clear...I was never a proponent of SF or a class "bump" for p/p's.  I would have preferred a "clearninghouse" method of counting enrollment (i.e. kids who want to participate in ANY extracurricular - football, sports, music, student gov, or even those parasitic robotics and chess club kids you despise, would be "counted" as they fill out an inschool clearing house form.). Most schools already have a code of conduct form that extracurricular kids have to complete (or something similar) so its not a hard number to determine.  This number would be used for classificaiton.  The percentage of kids in the clearinghouse would probably be very similar between Chatard, Zionsville, Brebeuf, Carmel....but drastically different at Elkhart, IPS, South Bend, etc.

 

 

Schools, and the IHSAA have the ability to determine this and already have these numbers as part of the analytics that modern-day education tracks ... just like test scores, FRL, college/trade placement, number of parking permits on campus, etc.  This would also incorporate special needs kids too in the numbers.  A number like this used for basis pretty much makes almost all of the arguments moot.  Can then toss in an SF variant for more fine-tuning. 

Incidentally, the thing that I like about using that type of number is that it's much more objective and doesn't lead to opinions or assumptions and deals with the actual numbers as opposed to "projections" or tropes.  It would also seem that something like that would also be quite advantageous for the IHSAA.  The IHSAA uses enrollment because it's easy and evenly implemented ... and also fairly lawsuit-proof ... although you can make the argument that it does less for optimizing competition.  Using a "participation modifier," as you suggest, would give them the ability to still use a fairly objective measure AND also address competition/equity at a higher level. 

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33 minutes ago, Miner_Pride said:

Thought I'd take a look at Linton's football history in the post season just to see who takes us out every year but 1 LOL...

...

 

@Miner_Pride ... it is great to see you again.  1A just hasn't felt the same since Linton moved up to 2A without the @Miner_Pride initial post to kickoff the 1A season.  Always appreciate the numbers as well as the commentary you bring.

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2 hours ago, JQWL said:

But it's not bad enough for the private schools to stop participating in the tournament with the overzealous public school fans. I 

It reminds me of travel baseball. Private schools are the Triple-A or Major team playing in a Single-A tournament early in the season just so they can win and take the picture with the ring to appease the travel ball mom in her razor back tank top. They're ring chasers and nothing more.

Nor should it stop them from participating in the tournament that is held by the IHSAA. The IHSAA is not solely for Public Schools. Membership and dues are renewed annually for all of the schools.

"The purpose of the IHSAA is to ensure athletics remain subservient to academics, and to maximize the opportunity for students to engage in transformative relationships with coaches and teammates in which their character and emotional maturity is developed to empower them to be effective in life.

Any high school in the state, or any junior high school offering ninth grade, whether public, private, parochial, or institutional, if accredited by the Indiana Department of Education, may become a member of the Association by making a formal application that is authorized by its board of education and by subscribing to the rules and By-Laws of the Association. Membership, once attained, is renewable annually provided requirements are met. The purpose of the IHSAA is to encourage and direct wholesome amateur athletics in the high schools of Indiana."

Whom is really the ring chasers? The P/P or even Public schools that have won the ring or multiple rings? Or the ones incessantly complaining about every other thing because other schools have multiple rings and they do not? I mean it can be looked at both ways.

The landscape is totally different now than it use to be with Open Enrollment in Indiana now.

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

What kind of Youth Protection Training are these cadres of volunteer coaches required to take?

 

Come on, are you serious? You do know ALL coaches (paid or volunteer) have to be rostered with the IHSAA and accredited? You can go look up the IHSAA By-Laws 7-1.4.

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/2023-24 By-Laws.pdf

7-1.4 Mandatory Coaching Accreditation

a. Coaching Accreditation.

(1.) Any paid or volunteer coach who is a member of a Member School Coaching Staff must be rostered with the IHSAA and must be Accredited, prior to having Athletic Contact with a student. ‘Athletic Contact’ refers to any interaction involving physical athletic activities or conditioning (physical fitness) activities between a coach and a student who is or will be a participant in an Emerging or Recognized Sport.

(2.) A coach will be deemed Accredited on the date the coach satisfies the Educational Requirements needed for Accreditation, and will automatically renew for one (1) year on June 30, provided the Educational Requirements needed for Accreditation are then current and the Accreditation had not been revoked or suspended.

b. Educational Requirements for Coaching Accreditation. To be Accredited a coach must complete the following specific education courses:

(1.) NFHS Concussion in Sports,

(2.) NFHS Heat Illness Prevention,

(3.) NFHS Sudden Cardiac Arrest,

(4.) NFHS Protecting Students from Abuse, or an approved equivalent, and

(5.) NFHS Student Mental Health and Suicide Prevention, or an approved equivalent.

To remain Accredited a coach must retake each course every Two (2) years, unless the edition of the course changes, in which event the coach must take the new edition within ninety (90) days of the edition’s release date, unless the edition’s release date occurs during the April 1 through June 1 period, and in that event the new edition must be taken on or before the following June 29th. c. Licensure and Disciplinary Requirements. An Accredited Coach must remain in compliance with all applicable state licensure and disciplinary statutes.

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2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Nor should it stop them from participating in the tournament that is held by the IHSAA. The IHSAA is not solely for Public Schools. Membership and dues are renewed annually for all of the schools.

"The purpose of the IHSAA is to ensure athletics remain subservient to academics, and to maximize the opportunity for students to engage in transformative relationships with coaches and teammates in which their character and emotional maturity is developed to empower them to be effective in life.

Any high school in the state, or any junior high school offering ninth grade, whether public, private, parochial, or institutional, if accredited by the Indiana Department of Education, may become a member of the Association by making a formal application that is authorized by its board of education and by subscribing to the rules and By-Laws of the Association. Membership, once attained, is renewable annually provided requirements are met. The purpose of the IHSAA is to encourage and direct wholesome amateur athletics in the high schools of Indiana."

Whom is really the ring chasers? The P/P or even Public schools that have won the ring or multiple rings? Or the ones incessantly complaining about every other thing because other schools have multiple rings and they do not? I mean it can be looked at both ways.

The landscape is totally different now than it use to be with Open Enrollment in Indiana now.

Ring Chasers is a term used in travel baseball to describe an organization that doesn't look for competition at their level. They want an easy win so they get that plastic ring. Like I mentioned, a team that is a Triple-A team playing at a lower level to get an easy win.

Obviously everyone wants to win a state championship. When I read the 2A championship thread and the discussion centers around how this isn't even a typical Luers team. Comparing them to teams that had multiple NFL players and someone even mentioned how that team would beat some college teams. Maybe Luers should start voluntarily playing up if they are so much better than their competition. Maybe that state championship would mean more. Most of these private schools that are at 1A/2A/and 3A play a schedule full of 4A/5A/6A teams weeks 1-9. That's because they feel like they can compete at that level. However, when it's for a ring (this is where the "ring chaser" comes into play) they want to compete with 1A/2A/3A schools. 

I still hate when open enrollment is used as a the equalizer for privates and publics. The transfer rules are still not the same. The enrollment rules still aren't the same. Just make them the same for everyone. That doesn't mean the private schools have to lose anything if that's what everyone is afraid of. If I had my way, I think the IHSAA should grant athletic eligibility to anyone that is enrolled at a school when everyone comes back from Dead Week. Where ever you are enrolled the 2nd week of July, that's the school you are eligible for the entire school year. The exception being a legitimate physical move. Just do that for everyone and I don't think there'd be as much complaining. Do I still think that privates should move up a class, yeah but I think this would help level the playing field somewhat.

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12 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Come on, are you serious? You do know ALL coaches (paid or volunteer) have to be rostered with the IHSAA and accredited? You can go look up the IHSAA By-Laws 7-1.4.

No, since I have never coached at the IHSAA level I did not know that.  Thank you for the information, I will peruse those various required courses.

 

11 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Ring Chasers is a term used in travel baseball to describe an organization that doesn't look for competition at their level.

Like the years LCC slummed in the Hoosier Heartland Conference.  
 

96-0 (never forget).

 

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21 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Obviously everyone wants to win a state championship. When I read the 2A championship thread and the discussion centers around how this isn't even a typical Luers team. Comparing them to teams that had multiple NFL players and someone even mentioned how that team would beat some college teams. Maybe Luers should start voluntarily playing up if they are so much better than their competition. Maybe that state championship would mean more. Most of these private schools that are at 1A/2A/and 3A play a schedule full of 4A/5A/6A teams weeks 1-9. That's because they feel like they can compete at that level. However, when it's for a ring (this is where the "ring chaser" comes into play) they want to compete with 1A/2A/3A schools. 

I still hate when open enrollment is used as a the equalizer for privates and publics. The transfer rules are still not the same. The enrollment rules still aren't the same. Just make them the same for everyone. That doesn't mean the private schools have to lose anything if that's what everyone is afraid of. If I had my way, I think the IHSAA should grant athletic eligibility to anyone that is enrolled at a school when everyone comes back from Dead Week. Where ever you are enrolled the 2nd week of July, that's the school you are eligible for the entire school year. The exception being a legitimate physical move. Just do that for everyone and I don't think there'd be as much complaining. Do I still think that privates should move up a class, yeah but I think this would help level the playing field somewhat.

So Luers could beat some college teams, yet couldn't beat East Noble, New Haven, or Homestead. Makes sense. If you truly believe that I have some ocean front property to sell you in Kansas.

Most of these 1A, 2A, and 3A schools play 4A, 5A, and 6A schools because they A.) have no choice because they are in their conference B.) will play whomever they can get because it is hard to get teams scheduled outside of weeks 1, 2, and 9 because of conference schedules. Even Center Grove and Carmel found that out after being ousted from the MIC. Center Grove had to schedule 5 out of State opponents. They play in the class the IHSAA places them in period (currently IHSAA uses enrollment unless a SF bump happens)  So your statement that they play 4A, 5A, and 6A opponents because they can compete with them, but when it comes to playing for rings they drop to 1A, 2A, and 3A is no where near factual.

All IHSAA schools have to abide by the IHSAA By-Laws. There is no separate By-Laws for Private and Public schools (Unless u=you can provide them to back up your statements). Rule 12 is Enrollment, Rule 19 is Eligibility and Transfer please enlighten us on how it is different for Private vs Public? I have seen @Footballking16 tackle the subject of transfers in the past you can feel free to bring that up.

There are advantages that Private Parochial Schools have but not in the areas you are pointing at.

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3 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

So Luers could beat some college teams, yet couldn't beat East Noble, New Haven, or Homestead. Makes sense. If you truly believe that I have some ocean front property to sell you in Kansas.

Most of these 1A, 2A, and 3A schools play 4A, 5A, and 6A schools because they A.) have no choice because they are in their conference B.) will play whomever they can get because it is hard to get teams scheduled outside of weeks 1, 2, and 9 because of conference schedules. Even Center Grove and Carmel found that out after being ousted from the MIC. Center Grove had to schedule 5 out of State opponents. They play in the class the IHSAA places them in period (currently IHSAA uses enrollment unless a SF bump happens)  So your statement that they play 4A, 5A, and 6A opponents because they can compete with them, but when it comes to playing for rings they drop to 1A, 2A, and 3A is no where near factual.

All IHSAA schools have to abide by the IHSAA By-Laws. There is no separate By-Laws for Private and Public schools (Unless u=you can provide them to back up your statements). Rule 12 is Enrollment, Rule 19 is Eligibility and Transfer please enlighten us on how it is different for Private vs Public? I have seen @Footballking16 tackle the subject of transfers in the past you can feel free to bring that up.

There are advantages that Private Parochial Schools have but not in the areas you are pointing at.

I don't believe that. I said those were the comments in the 2A Championship game thread. 

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10 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

So Luers could beat some college teams, yet couldn't beat East Noble, New Haven, or Homestead. Makes sense. If you truly believe that I have some ocean front property to sell you in Kansas.

It was a woman that said that. She was referring to Luers teams of the past. Probably those Jaylon Smith led teams. 

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Thank you sir....  I know my notoriously long posts can be tedious at times...but I am a man of information LOL.   I loved doing all that just got to where I was playing catch-up with everything life deals out.   I will work this off-season trying to get all my files updated to where I can get back to those times.   

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4 hours ago, US31 said:

Odd that you view a kid that takes rigorous academic classes and participates in various extra curricular activities as a kid that needs to be "carved out".

In my eyes those kids are valuable participants at whatever school they attend.  

The point is that at some schools...there are a large proportion of kids that won't ever attend or participate in ANYTHING...sometimes even school iteself.  Public schools have to count all these kids toward their classification numbers.  The amount of these kids at a p/p is going to very small; and,  as you had mentioned previously, at many affluent suburban publics this will also be a small number.  At some high poverty urban or rural schools...this number is high.  This is the difference between public and p/p....not that kids are "recurited" or anything else.

To be clear...I was never a proponent of SF or a class "bump" for p/p's.  I would have preferred a "clearninghouse" method of counting enrollment (i.e. kids who want to participate in ANY extracurricular - football, sports, music, student gov, or even those parasitic robotics and chess club kids you despise, would be "counted" as they fill out an inschool clearing house form.). Most schools already have a code of conduct form that extracurricular kids have to complete (or something similar) so its not a hard number to determine.  This number would be used for classificaiton.  The percentage of kids in the clearinghouse would probably be very similar between Chatard, Zionsville, Brebeuf, Carmel....but drastically different at Elkhart, IPS, South Bend, etc.

 

 

Just for clarification: I don’t despise those kids. Just the opposite. I was pointing out the absurdity of omitting any group of students based on the fact that they won’t contribute to the sports program of choice. Every school has kids with other interests. 

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4 hours ago, Miner_Pride said:

Thank you sir....  I know my notoriously long posts can be tedious at times...but I am a man of information LOL.   I loved doing all that just got to where I was playing catch-up with everything life deals out.   I will work this off-season trying to get all my files updated to where I can get back to those times.   

Holding you to this. I miss you in 1A....not Linton so much. 😂

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22 hours ago, JQWL said:

I have not seen the weight room at Delta or the facilities at Hamilton Heights. Have you? Do they give dads tours of the opponents facilities prior to tournament games? You seem to have a pretty good feel for what the majority of the state's schools are in but I believe I read you just moved to Indiana. Have you ever been to the weight room at Crawford County? Tell City? Paoli? Brownstown? North Knox? 

Not sure about the others, but North Knox has a great weight room for a rural 2A school

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17 hours ago, JQWL said:

Ring Chasers is a term used in travel baseball to describe an organization that doesn't look for competition at their level. They want an easy win so they get that plastic ring. Like I mentioned, a team that is a Triple-A team playing at a lower level to get an easy win.

Obviously everyone wants to win a state championship. When I read the 2A championship thread and the discussion centers around how this isn't even a typical Luers team. Comparing them to teams that had multiple NFL players and someone even mentioned how that team would beat some college teams. Maybe Luers should start voluntarily playing up if they are so much better than their competition. Maybe that state championship would mean more. Most of these private schools that are at 1A/2A/and 3A play a schedule full of 4A/5A/6A teams weeks 1-9. That's because they feel like they can compete at that level. However, when it's for a ring (this is where the "ring chaser" comes into play) they want to compete with 1A/2A/3A schools. 

I still hate when open enrollment is used as a the equalizer for privates and publics. The transfer rules are still not the same. The enrollment rules still aren't the same. Just make them the same for everyone. That doesn't mean the private schools have to lose anything if that's what everyone is afraid of. If I had my way, I think the IHSAA should grant athletic eligibility to anyone that is enrolled at a school when everyone comes back from Dead Week. Where ever you are enrolled the 2nd week of July, that's the school you are eligible for the entire school year. The exception being a legitimate physical move. Just do that for everyone and I don't think there'd be as much complaining. Do I still think that privates should move up a class, yeah but I think this would help level the playing field somewhat.

Luers did play up for quite a while. They were 3A for years.  Luers also plays up all season long; they do not even see another 2A team until playoff time. 

But... the thing about a small school is that one year you may have a whole stable of NFL players and the team could beat some college teams.  But...then for several (or eleven) years after that, you will get the normal, average, everyday-type-of-talented athletes.  I don't think anyone can look at the last eleven years and argue that Luers has been "too good" to be allowed to play in 2A.  

The kids on that team this year worked hard and that is why they one.  They weren't clearly out-classing all of the other 2A teams... for crying outloud, most people I saw posting were picking N. Posey.  Even the sports journalists were pretty split on their predictions, with the N. Posey probably being given the edge... at least in the ones I saw/read. 

So, even the "success factor" bump is potentially a little problematic.  So... you move up a team based on success-factor, and for the next couple of years, the young team that has to take over after that State Champ team graduates is outclassed and getting pummeled (and often injured because they still only actually have 2A enrollment and all the kids play both ways while their opponents from larger schools are not necessarily undergoing that stress and strain.)    I watched it happen, last time Luers got success-factored up.  The injuries jumped those seasons. Kids were getting hurt. And for what?  It isn't like we didn't understand the concept of graduation. We didn't think those seniors would be back for a fifth bite at the apple.  If they had, then "success factor" definitely should apply.  But everyone knew (or could have known) that the whole starting line-up was graduating.  We couldn't anticipate the young kids taking over those roles were not likely to be as successful? Or that they might get hurt playing two-ways if moved up a class? 

Now -- I don't know that it would be the same problem this time.  Luers only graduates 12 seniors this year. So, a lot of this team will be back.  And there were a lot of juniors and a lot of sophomores already playing a lot of minutes this year. Maybe success factor would be a fair application in this year's case. 

I don't know what next year looks like, but I'd expect that Luers should make a pretty deep run again when this year's sophomores are seniors. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, LuersMom5 said:

Luers did play up for quite a while. They were 3A for years.  Luers also plays up all season long; they do not even see another 2A team until playoff time. 

But... the thing about a small school is that one year you may have a whole stable of NFL players and the team could beat some college teams.  But...then for several (or eleven) years after that, you will get the normal, average, everyday-type-of-talented athletes.  I don't think anyone can look at the last eleven years and argue that Luers has been "too good" to be allowed to play in 2A.  

The kids on that team this year worked hard and that is why they one.  They weren't clearly out-classing all of the other 2A teams... for crying outloud, most people I saw posting were picking N. Posey.  Even the sports journalists were pretty split on their predictions, with the N. Posey probably being given the edge... at least in the ones I saw/read. 

So, even the "success factor" bump is potentially a little problematic.  So... you move up a team based on success-factor, and for the next couple of years, the young team that has to take over after that State Champ team graduates is outclassed and getting pummeled (and often injured because they still only actually have 2A enrollment and all the kids play both ways while their opponents from larger schools are not necessarily undergoing that stress and strain.)    I watched it happen, last time Luers got success-factored up.  The injuries jumped those seasons. Kids were getting hurt. And for what?  It isn't like we didn't understand the concept of graduation. We didn't think those seniors would be back for a fifth bite at the apple.  If they had, then "success factor" definitely should apply.  But everyone knew (or could have known) that the whole starting line-up was graduating.  We couldn't anticipate the young kids taking over those roles were not likely to be as successful? Or that they might get hurt playing two-ways if moved up a class? 

Now -- I don't know that it would be the same problem this time.  Luers only graduates 12 seniors this year. So, a lot of this team will be back.  And there were a lot of juniors and a lot of sophomores already playing a lot of minutes this year. Maybe success factor would be a fair application in this year's case. 

I don't know what next year looks like, but I'd expect that Luers should make a pretty deep run again when this year's sophomores are seniors. 

 

 

Good post. I agree that the success factor doesn't make any sense in it's current form. I've been saying that since it's inception. The talented kids get the trophy at the lower level, and the less talented kids get the bump up. The best solution I've seen so far is to bump up a team based on how many of it's players come from outside their normal pipeline. I've always been an advocate for having a multiplier for private schools. I also don't think a team should get bumped if they didn't win a state championship...........Adams Central. They didn't get their win at the 1A level, now they don't get to get their win at the 2A level. Makes no sense at all. 

The only part of your post that is inaccurate, and it's the second time you've mentioned it, is the ability of a high school team to beat some college teams. Maybe you don't really believe that and you're just using it as context to prove your point.  Outside of magnet schools like the IMG, it would never happen. A D3 program with 19-22 year old kids would beat Indiana's best high school team by multiple scores. 

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46 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good post. I agree that the success factor doesn't make any sense in it's current form. I've been saying that since it's inception. The talented kids get the trophy at the lower level, and the less talented kids get the bump up. The best solution I've seen so far is to bump up a team based on how many of it's players come from outside their normal pipeline. I've always been an advocate for having a multiplier for private schools. I also don't think a team should get bumped if they didn't win a state championship...........Adams Central. They didn't get their win at the 1A level, now they don't get to get their win at the 2A level. Makes no sense at all. 

The only part of your post that is inaccurate, and it's the second time you've mentioned it, is the ability of a high school team to beat some college teams. Maybe you don't really believe that and you're just using it as context to prove your point.  Outside of magnet schools like the IMG, it would never happen. A D3 program with 19-22 year old kids would beat Indiana's best high school team by multiple scores. 

The best solution is for the IHSAA to go to a true system of promotion/relegation, and take enrollment entirely out of it's classification system.  

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