Lions/Cowboys

[Footballking16]

@Bobrefcan you give us an explanation on the 2 pt play? 

[Bobref]

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

@Bobrefcan you give us an explanation on the 2 pt play? 

I’m not an NFL rules expert by any means. But my understanding is that the Lions’ #68 was positioned on the end of the line as a left tackle, went downfield at the snap, and caught a pass in the end zone for an apparent 2 pt conversion. After discussion, the crew flagged him for illegal touching, which wiped out the 2 pts. Under NFL rules, any player not wearing a number 1-49 or 80-99, must report to the officials that he is assuming a position that makes him an eligible receiver, i.e., in the backfield or on the end of the line. If he fails to so report, he remains ineligible because of his number even if he lines up in an eligible position. When he is the first to touch a forward pass, the touching is illegal, which results in a 5 yd. penalty from the previous spot and replay of the down.

It might be appropriate to ask the Lions’ coach why, after the penalty was enforced, he didn’t then kick the try and go to OT, rather than put the game on the line with what was essentially “4th & goal” from the 7 yd. line, having already used up the trick play they were counting on to win the game.

I understand there is video that some people are using to question whether #68 may have actually reported and the crew missed it. I expect the NFL to make some sort of statement about that once they’ve heard from the crew.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Bobref

[Bobref]

Did a little more digging on this play, and it looks like the Lions were the ones who screwed this up. Campbell said after the game that both #68 and #70 reported as eligible, and they were told that they couldn’t designate 2 players. If that were the case, then their formation would have been illegal. Think about it. If both ##68 & 70 were on the ends of the line, and the 2 guards and center were in their accustomed positions, that’s only 5 players. The other 6 would have to be off the line — and you’re limited to no more than 4 in the backfield. So, there would have been an illegal formation foul at the snap. Also, if #68 reported as eligible, he would have been specifically identified to the defense: “#68 has reported as an eligible receiver.” It doesn’t appear that happened either.

Early in my career, a veteran official explained this sort of play to me as follows: “A fuc*ed up play deserves a fuc*ed up call.”

[Footballking16]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

Did a little more digging on this play, and it looks like the Lions were the ones who screwed this up. Campbell said after the game that both #68 and #70 reported as eligible, and they were told that they couldn’t designate 2 players. If that were the case, then their formation would have been illegal. Think about it. If both ##68 & 70 were on the ends of the line, and the 2 guards and center were in their accustomed positions, that’s only 5 players. The other 6 would have to be off the line — and you’re limited to no more than 4 in the backfield. So, there would have been an illegal formation foul at the snap. Also, if #68 reported as eligible, he would have been specifically identified to the defense: “#68 has reported as an eligible receiver.” It doesn’t appear that happened either.

Early in my career, a veteran official explained this sort of play to me as follows: “A fuc*ed up play deserves a fuc*ed up call.”

#70 appears to be lined up at RT and not on the end of the LOS. Does that change things? I just saw this clip this morning. Sounds like 68 is the one who reported eligible but the official announced 70 who was ineligible regardless because of where he was positioned. It looks the only way that formation would have been illegal is if the WR on the left side covered up 68. It appears he is lined up off the LOS.
 

I think Ryan Clark is a donkey but wondering if his interpretation is correct here?

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Footballking16

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

70 appears to be lined up at RT and not on the end of the LOS. Does that change things? I just saw this clip this morning. Sounds like 68 is the one who reported eligible but the official announced 70 who was ineligible regardless because of where he was positioned.

That runs counter to what Campbell said after the game. He said Detroit’s intent was to have both #70 and #68 be eligible … which can only happen legally if one or both of them lines up in the backfield. 

[Footballking16]

15 minutes ago, Bobref said:

That runs counter to what Campbell said after the game. He said Detroit’s intent was to have both #70 and #68 be eligible … which can only happen legally if one or both of them lines up in the backfield. 

It appears the official mixed up the numbers of who reported as eligible and doesn’t want to own that mistake. Why would #70 (who didn’t even get close to the official upon substituting) report as eligible while he’s covered up?

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

It appears the official mixed up the numbers of who reported as eligible and doesn’t want to own that mistake. Why would #70 (who didn’t even get close to the official upon substituting) report as eligible while he’s covered up?

That does not explain why Campbell said after the game that both #68 and #70 were supposed to report as eligible.

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

That does not explain why Campbell said after the game that both #68 and #70 were supposed to report as eligible.

What Campbell said after the game and what actually transpired on the field are two different things. Two people can’t report as eligible. #68 very clearly walks up to the referee to report as eligible and referee nods in acknowledgment. #70 is nowhere near the official. The Lions sent 3 lineman towards the official to try and deceit the Cowboys but ultimately ended up confusing the referee. 

The ref announced the wrong player eligible who was lined up in an ineligible position on the field to begin with. They really blew this call the more I read into it and the more video that surfaces.

[Bobref]

16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Two people can’t report as eligible.

Your incorrect understanding of the rule is preventing you from analyzing what happened on the field and reconciling the video and post-game statements. It is perfectly legal to have multiple players with ineligible numbers report as eligible, as long as they are correctly positioned at the snap. 

[Footballking16]

6 hours ago, Bobref said:

Your incorrect understanding of the rule is preventing you from analyzing what happened on the field and reconciling the video and post-game statements. It is perfectly legal to have multiple players with ineligible numbers report as eligible, as long as they are correctly positioned at the snap. 

Why would #70 report as eligible lined up as a RT covered up by TWO players on that side of the LOS? 
 

There’s clear video evidence of #68 reporting as eligible and the official acknowledging it. #70 never reported as eligible, the official announced the wrong player and then doubled down on his mistake. It was a perfectly legal formation. The NFL downgrading this crew from playoff contention is their unofficial apology to the Lions that the crew screwed up. 

Edited January 1 by Footballking16

[Bobref]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Why would #70 report as eligible lined up as a RT covered up by TWO players on that side of the LOS? 
 

There’s clear video evidence of #68 reporting as eligible and the official acknowledging it. He announced the wrong player and then doubled down on his mistake. The NFL downgrading this crew from playoff contention is their unofficial apology to the Lions that the crew screwed up. 

No doubt it was handled in less than optimal fashion by the crew. The Lions tried a cute one, and in the end they tricked not only the defense, but the crew as well.

[Bobref]

https://www.totalprosports.com/nfl/detroit-lions-blamed-nfl-penalty-deception/ 

REPORT: NFL Is Now Blaming The Lions For “Engaging In Deception And Gamesmanship” With Cowboys & Refs

It does not look like the NFL feels sorry for the Detroit Lions over what happened on Saturday.

According to Pro Football Talk’s Mike Florio, the NFL has no plans to change the rules on players reporting as eligible after Saturday night’s fiasco in Dallas.

To make matters worse, the league is actually placing blame on the Detroit Lions for what happened.

“Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the NFL does not plan to change the procedure for players reporting as eligible. The league views the situation as an effort by the Lions to engage in deception and gamesmanship that backfired.”

 

Following Amon-Ra St. Brown’s touchdown reception that brought the team to within a point inside the final minute of the game. Jared Goff found offensive tackle Taylor Decker in the end zone for what appeared to be a successful two-point conversion. 
 

However, Decker was flagged for illegal touching and the conversion was nullified.

Replays showed Decker approaching referee Brad Allen before the play, presumably to report himself as an eligible receiver.

Allen said after the game that offensive tackle Dan Skipper, not Decker, was the one who reported as eligible.

Florio also explained the Lions included an added layer of deception by having Skipper and Decker both approach Allen before the snap.

“Basically, the Lions wanted the Cowboys to think Skipper was reporting as eligible and that Decker was not,” he wrote. “Which would have caused the Cowboys to cover Skipper, not Decker, when the play unfolded. The problem is that, in trying to confuse the Cowboys, the Lions confused Allen.”

Despite the league not changing any rules, ESPN’s Adam Schefter reported a “large part” of Allen’s crew won’t be working the postseason because of multiple missed calls over the course of the season.

[CoachGallogly]

I think something that has been lost in this is 70 had reported previously in the game as eligible as a 6th lineman. When watching the film the white hat is looking at 70 and even points to him as 68 is talking to him.  
 

A reasonable scenario here is that 68 said “report” the White Hat saw 70 a few yards away sprinting in and made the assumption 68 was just relaying for 70 again. 68 didn’t say “68 reports” or “I report”. Then the white hat announces publicly 70 is eligible. 
 

This mistake is on the white hat but also the Lions. The Lions attempted to confuse, and they did. They also did not call attention to the call of 70 being announced because they were hoping that’s exactly what the Cowboys would think.  
 

The crew got it wrong. But the Lions set it up that way.  

[Footballking16]

13 hours ago, Bobref said:

https://www.totalprosports.com/nfl/detroit-lions-blamed-nfl-penalty-deception/ 

REPORT: NFL Is Now Blaming The Lions For “Engaging In Deception And Gamesmanship” With Cowboys & Refs

It does not look like the NFL feels sorry for the Detroit Lions over what happened on Saturday.

According to Pro Football Talk’s Mike Florio, the NFL has no plans to change the rules on players reporting as eligible after Saturday night’s fiasco in Dallas.

To make matters worse, the league is actually placing blame on the Detroit Lions for what happened.

“Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the NFL does not plan to change the procedure for players reporting as eligible. The league views the situation as an effort by the Lions to engage in deception and gamesmanship that backfired.”

 

Following Amon-Ra St. Brown’s touchdown reception that brought the team to within a point inside the final minute of the game. Jared Goff found offensive tackle Taylor Decker in the end zone for what appeared to be a successful two-point conversion. 
 

However, Decker was flagged for illegal touching and the conversion was nullified.

Replays showed Decker approaching referee Brad Allen before the play, presumably to report himself as an eligible receiver.

Allen said after the game that offensive tackle Dan Skipper, not Decker, was the one who reported as eligible.

Florio also explained the Lions included an added layer of deception by having Skipper and Decker both approach Allen before the snap.

“Basically, the Lions wanted the Cowboys to think Skipper was reporting as eligible and that Decker was not,” he wrote. “Which would have caused the Cowboys to cover Skipper, not Decker, when the play unfolded. The problem is that, in trying to confuse the Cowboys, the Lions confused Allen.”

Despite the league not changing any rules, ESPN’s Adam Schefter reported a “large part” of Allen’s crew won’t be working the postseason because of multiple missed calls over the course of the season.

If 68 reported eligible and the crew announced anybody but 68 the fault lies with one person and one person only. 

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

If 68 reported eligible and the crew announced anybody but 68 the fault lies with one person and one person only. 

Opinions vary.

[CoachGallogly]

If you watch the video the white hat had already recognized 70 and began to move to announce him before 68 gets to the white hat. 

[Titan32]

24 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

If you watch the video the white hat had already recognized 70 and began to move to announce him before 68 gets to the white hat. 

Correct...and 70 had reported multiple times before in an effort to set up the ruse for this play when they sent two guys....68 got there a little late after the ref took off to inform the Cowboys about #70.  Perhaps he yelled "me too ref", we will never really know.

Edited January 2 by Titan32

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

Correct...and 70 had reported multiple times before in an effort to set up the ruse for this play when they sent two guys....68 got there a little late after the ref took off to inform the Cowboys about #70.  Perhaps he yelled "me too ref", we will never really know.

70 stated he did not report…he clearly walked toward official. I don’t think he’s lying. Because of past reporting, I think the official heard #68 and assumed #70. Think it was a simple assumption error that ended up being a game changer. But, guess we are all speculating unless down on the field. Hope the NFL actually investigates, arrives at the true error, and works to eliminate future failure potential. This error will result in more than a game, it will impact playoff seeding. 

[Footballking16]

What video are you guys watching? 68 is at white hat reporting before 70 even gets into the picture. White hat looks and acknowledges 68 (there’s video). 70 never reported because 70 was never going to line up in an eligible position.

 

[Titan32]

26 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What video are you guys watching? 68 is at white hat reporting before 70 even gets into the picture. White hat looks and acknowledges 68 (there’s video). 70 never reported because 70 was never going to line up in an eligible position.

 

If you look at the larger window....it is definitely a possibility he is looking right past 68 toward 70 who is running in at the him...like he did the other times he reported.  In a attempt to game the Cowboys the Lions ended up confusing the official.  I can't feel bad for them.

[Titan32]

I mean even if you support the theory that this is totally on the official, the narrative that this "cost" the Lions a TD just isn't the case.  The official then also robbed the Cowboys of knowing who to defend, and had they had known....the outcome would likely have been different anyway.

[CoachGallogly]

It’s pretty obvious if you watch the wider version that the white hat makes eye contact with 70 running on and the white hat even points at 70

 

70 said he didn’t report. I believe that to be true.  68 also said he said one single word “report” I also believe this to be true.  
 

but the timing here is where we can see plausibly what happens.  70 runs on like he had other times directly at the white hat instead of the huddle (this is important) the white hat sees him, jumps the gun and begins to go tell the cowboys when 68 and 58 impede his path. 68 says “report” and the white hat likely thought “yeah I already know buddy I see 70 coming in” and didn’t process that 68 was reporting himself.  White hat continues on his path and informs cowboys of 70. 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If you look at the larger window....it is definitely a possibility he is looking right past 68 toward 70 who is running in at the him...like he did the other times he reported.  In a attempt to game the Cowboys the Lions ended up confusing the official.  I can't feel bad for them.

If he didn't report (like he said he didn't) there's no reason to report the number on the assumption that he's reporting, especially when you have someone in front of your face reporting eligible. 

[Titan32]

22 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

It’s pretty obvious if you watch the wider version that the white hat makes eye contact with 70 running on and the white hat even points at 70

 

70 said he didn’t report. I believe that to be true.  68 also said he said one single word “report” I also believe this to be true.  
 

but the timing here is where we can see plausibly what happens.  70 runs on like he had other times directly at the white hat instead of the huddle (this is important) the white hat sees him, jumps the gun and begins to go tell the cowboys when 68 and 58 impede his path. 68 says “report” and the white hat likely thought “yeah I already know buddy I see 70 coming in” and didn’t process that 68 was reporting himself.  White hat continues on his path and informs cowboys of 70. 

I agree this is the most likely scenario.  

[Grover]

Some of you guys are crazy but I'm not in the mood to argue so I won't say who.

😁