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Why don't we go to 32 teams in all classes and play a 10th regular season game?


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24 minutes ago, Bobref said:

 

24 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Are you aware that tournament revenue that goes “to the IHSAA” is distributed to the schools after IHSAA operating expenses are deducted?

Here’s the IHSAA’s financial summary from the 2021 Annual Report. The IHSAA keeps about 10% of total revenue for its overhead, salaries, etc. It distributes about 12% of its total revenue back to the schools - $1.3 million in this report. The remainder is operating expense.

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6 hours ago, Bobref said:

Are you aware that tournament revenue that goes “to the IHSAA” is distributed to the schools after IHSAA operating expenses are deducted?

Well, it is admirable they return $1.3 million to schools and keep only $1.1 million, it’s the more than $3 million in ‘Administration’ (32% of the $9.68 million operating expense) that gives me pause.

Bureaucracies are not cheap, and they rarely fund themselves.

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2 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Well, it is admirable they return $1.3 million to schools and keep only $1.1 million, it’s the more than $3 million in ‘Administration’ (32% of the $9.68 million operating expense) that gives me pause.

Bureaucracies are not cheap, and they rarely fund themselves.

I'd love to see a breakdown of salaries and what the IHSAA spends in attorney fees. To my knowledge it isn't included in anything available to the public. 

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4 hours ago, tango said:

I'd love to see a breakdown of salaries and what the IHSAA spends in attorney fees. To my knowledge it isn't included in anything available to the public. 

It’s probably in the Annual Report somewhere.  I know their General Counsel, Robert Baker, has a salary of just under $160K.

6 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Well, it is admirable they return $1.3 million to schools and keep only $1.1 million, it’s the more than $3 million in ‘Administration’ (32% of the $9.68 million operating expense) that gives me pause.

Bureaucracies are not cheap, and they rarely fund themselves.

If you compare the IHSAA to the parallel organizations in other states, you’d see that the IHSAA runs pretty lean in terms of staffing and salary.

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On 2/17/2024 at 8:00 AM, Bobref said:

Are you aware that tournament revenue that goes “to the IHSAA” is distributed to the schools after IHSAA operating expenses are deducted?

Losing one sectional round and gaining a 10th game which adds a home game every other year will add more revenue to the schools.  

In 2022, Rochester traveled to Seeger game 1, Benton Central game 2, and then had a home game against LCC.  There was a bye in the other bracket, LCC played Delphi game 1, Cass game 2, and then Rochester.  After expenses, I'm guessing each school received a $200-$400 check maybe less.  

I do believe, after the sectional round of play, schools are only given reimbursement checks.  No revenue generated from regional, semi-state, or state games is given back to the schools.

 

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3 hours ago, Punttheball said:

I do believe, after the sectional round of play, schools are only given reimbursement checks.  No revenue generated from regional, semi-state, or state games is given back to the schools.

 

I would say you are technically correct, but not practically. Revenue from the upper levels of the tournament goes into the big pot of money from which IHSAA operating expenses are taken out. But the remainder of the pot is distributed to all schools. So, to the extent the football tournament revenue contributes to that “excess” revenue, it actually does go back to the schools.

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4 hours ago, Punttheball said:

I do believe, after the sectional round of play, schools are only given reimbursement checks.  No revenue generated from regional, semi-state, or state games is given back to the schools.

The link to the IHSAA Fall Sport Bulletin has been removed, but unless there has been a change, the schools participating in Regional and Semi-States each get the gate revenue equivalent of 100 tickets sold, plus the standard travel reimbursements, site host fees, etc. 

28 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Revenue from the upper levels of the tournament goes into the big pot of money from which IHSAA operating expenses are taken out. But the remainder of the pot is distributed to all schools. So, to the extent the football tournament revenue contributes to that “excess” revenue, it actually does go back to the schools.

Which would be roughly about $3,250 per school ($1.3M / 400 schools)?  

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10 hours ago, Punttheball said:

In 2022, Rochester traveled to Seeger game 1, Benton Central game 2, and then had a home game against LCC.  There was a bye in the other bracket, LCC played Delphi game 1, Cass game 2, and then Rochester.  After expenses, I'm guessing each school received a $200-$400 check maybe less.  

 

I'm unfamiliar with finances in an athletic department - but are you saying all 7 schools (with the bye) received a check in that amount?  Meaning the net revenue from the six sectional games was $1,400 - $2,800?  

I have only attended playoff games in SW Indiana, but that just seems way too low for what I have witnessed. 

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On 2/16/2024 at 3:12 PM, Footballking16 said:

Sure you do, you give actual meaning to the regular season. Why should every team be entitled to play a sectional game? I've never heard of another postseason format that entitles an 0-9 team who loses every game by 50 points the opportunity to play for a state championship. 

Do you even have an example of a team losing every game by 50 points? 

I'm still failing to see what you gain, the regular season always matters, it literally prepares you for the tourney.

But the bottom line---- Every kid should be able to play in the sectional and that's not going to change, no real sense in entertaining the idea.  

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35 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

Every kid should be able to play in the sectional

Says who? I never got to play in a football sectional, and I don’t feel deprived. You “deserve” what you earn. Apparently, thousands and thousands of kids all over the country are just ticking time bombs because they didn’t get to the playoffs in their respective states when they were in high school. Thank goodness we don’t have to worry about that in Indiana. 

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6 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Says who? I never got to play in a football sectional, and I don’t feel deprived. You “deserve” what you earn. Apparently, thousands and thousands of kids all over the country are just ticking time bombs because they didn’t get to the playoffs in their respective states when they were in high school. Thank goodness we don’t have to worry about that in Indiana. 

That's a bit of a dramatic take. But sure, man. 

By not allowing every team in, we gain nothing. We aren't better off by not allowing teams in. 

I'd seed the top 2 teams using the Sagarin and blind draw the rest. Only changes I would like to see.  

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5 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

By not allowing every team in, we gain nothing. We aren't better off by not allowing teams in. 

Again, you simply make these pronouncements, without any supporting rationale. A qualification format turns regular season games into playoff games. Who gets excited when two 4-4 teams play each other in Week 9? Nobody. But if a playoff qualifying spot is on the line, suddenly a ho-hum game turns into a playoff game. Better for players, coaches, fans … everyone.

Now, explain to everyone why the all-in, with its 9 weeks of practice games, is better for a high school football in Indiana.

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It always amazes me on a forum that should be for promoting football in Indiana, the amount of people on this forum that either want to eliminate teams completely or eliminate teams from playing games. There is nothing wrong with the all-in. Kids get very few football games to play in their entire lives and once it's done, it's done. Let's not try and minimize the experience just so fans can feel like it "means more."

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26 minutes ago, JQWL said:

It always amazes me on a forum that should be for promoting football in Indiana, the amount of people on this forum that either want to eliminate teams completely or eliminate teams from playing games. There is nothing wrong with the all-in. Kids get very few football games to play in their entire lives and once it's done, it's done. Let's not try and minimize the experience just so fans can feel like it "means more."

If you make it a qualifying tournament you add a 10th game so everyone is still guaranteed 10 games. Nobody loses a game. This does improve and promote Indiana HS football because as Bobref mention it creates a playoff atmosphere for more regular season games either because it involves earning a playoff spot or possibly seeding for hosting a playoff game. I've worked many week 8 or 9 games that feel more like an exhibition game or scrimmage because the result has no impact on conference championship or anything playoff related. The players still play hard and to win because that's their nature. But you can't deny a playoff atmosphere is different than a regular season.

And the test I give is explain this process to anyone not familiar with it. 100% don't believe me when I explain it to them. They can't fathom anyone would have an all-in with random draw. Even as I try to explain why it works for people in Indiana they still think I'm making it up. They always ask, "why do you play a regular season?" This is the most illogical way to do a tournament that could ever be conceived, and there is a reason nobody else does this or considers this.

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46 minutes ago, JQWL said:

It always amazes me on a forum that should be for promoting football in Indiana, the amount of people on this forum that either want to eliminate teams completely or eliminate teams from playing games. There is nothing wrong with the all-in. Kids get very few football games to play in their entire lives and once it's done, it's done. Let's not try and minimize the experience just so fans can feel like it "means more."

A very typical “objection” to a qualifying format: all emotion and supposition. No facts or logic.

By the way in a top 50% qualification format, you can add a 10th regular season game and the number of games played in the season, in total, is the same as it is now, so the experience is not “minimized.”

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14 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

I'm unfamiliar with finances in an athletic department - but are you saying all 7 schools (with the bye) received a check in that amount?  Meaning the net revenue from the six sectional games was $1,400 - $2,800?  

I have only attended playoff games in SW Indiana, but that just seems way too low for what I have witnessed. 

Yeah, that seems surprisingly low. I know we pay clock operators, etc., for tournament games because it is included as part of the IHSAA "host fee", but even adding those minor expenses, I still don't see how the per school split of combined Sectional gate could be that low. 

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36 minutes ago, Bobref said:

A very typical “objection” to a qualifying format: all emotion and supposition. No facts or logic.

By the way in a top 50% qualification format, you can add a 10th regular season game and the number of games played in the season, in total, is the same as it is now, so the experience is not “minimized.”

If you have a problem with an objection based around the kids playing the game, then we are involved for different reasons. I've noticed over the years your posts have changed. I enjoy the ones where you answer officiating questions. You're pretty knowledgeable with the rules.

It does seem like with what you're wanting to do is add a 10th which according to you would add a meaningless game. It wouldn't make it a playoff atmosphere for teams trying to qualify because we'd use some kind of mathematical formula to determine if you're in the top half that wouldn't come out until you know the scores of all the games Saturday. If you're not in the top 50% after week 9, then it won't change much after week 10.

A buddy of mine coaches in Florida at Oak Ridge. He grew up here in Indiana. He hates their format. To qualify, your district games are the only ones that factor in to qualification. The other games truly mean nothing. For context, 5 of the 9 games they played were essentially exhibition games. They knew when their season was ending after 8 games because they had lost 2 district games week 7 and 8. I'm not sure how that is a better system.

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4 hours ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

Do you even have an example of a team losing every game by 50 points? 

I'm still failing to see what you gain, the regular season always matters, it literally prepares you for the tourney.

But the bottom line---- Every kid should be able to play in the sectional and that's not going to change, no real sense in entertaining the idea.  

North Newton went 0-9 in the regular season last year. Average margin of defeat was 50 points on the head. Shut out in 5 of 9 regular season games. Lost 71-6 in opening round of sectionals likely at the expense of a North Judson/Pioneer first round match-up that pitted at the time two top 15 Sagarin teams in 1A against each other.

Why should every kid be able to play in a sectional game? A postseason berth should be earned, not the other way around. Every team making the postseason under the guise of the blind draw and really screwing with dynamicity and the competitiveness of the tournament has never really made sense to me. It's a watered down tournament.  

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3 hours ago, JQWL said:

It always amazes me on a forum that should be for promoting football in Indiana, the amount of people on this forum that either want to eliminate teams completely or eliminate teams from playing games. There is nothing wrong with the all-in. Kids get very few football games to play in their entire lives and once it's done, it's done. Let's not try and minimize the experience just so fans can feel like it "means more."

How does proposing a qualifier equal eliminating teams from playing games? In a proposed qualifier that eliminates half the field at the conclusion of the regular season with an added 10th game, every team is guaranteed the same number of games as the old system. Nothing changes other than the amount of unnecessary blowouts in the opening round of the playoffs from teams who have no business playing in the postseason to begin with. 

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4 hours ago, Bobref said:

Now, explain to everyone why the all-in, with its 9 weeks of practice games, is better for a high school football in Indiana.

Conference titles?

Back in my day we had 10-game regular seasons and liked it!

 

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6 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Conference titles?

Back in my day we had 10-game regular seasons and liked it!

 

Brownsburg went undefeated in the toughest conference in the state yet drew a road playoff game against the #2 team in the state, in the first round no less.

Should tell you everything you need to know about the value of a conference championship under the current format. 2-7 Avon who finished dead last in said conference and also a 4 TD loser to Brownsburg drew another 2-7 team IN THE SAME SECTIONAL.

Make it make sense.

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4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Brownsburg went undefeated in the toughest conference in the state yet drew a road playoff game against the #2 team in the state, in the first round no less.

Should tell you everything you need to know about the value of a conference championship under the current format. 2-7 Avon who finished dead last in said conference and also a 4 TD loser to Brownsburg drew another 2-7 team IN THE SAME SECTIONAL.

Make it make sense.

Well now we're having two different conversations.  The Sectionals should have been seeded a long time ago.  In 2024, it's embarrassing really, that the IHSAA continues to play dumb on this issue.

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3 minutes ago, Daniel_Bragg said:

Well now we're having two different conversations.  The Sectionals should have been seeded a long time ago.  In 2024, it's embarrassing really, that the IHSAA continues to play dumb on this issue.

Seeding the sectionals is the next logical step to a qualifier. How many straight years of Ben Davis beating Avon by 40-50 points on one side of the bracket and Brownsburg beating Pike by 40-50 points on the other side does it take for common sense to prevail and say it’s pointless to call these first round games the “postseason”?

The all-in can only exist with the blind draw. It’s the only way to justify blowouts against teams who have no business playing in a postseason tournament to begin with. And it’s usually at the expense of a top team getting taken out early by another top team. It’s laughable.

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27 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Brownsburg went undefeated in the toughest conference in the state yet drew a road playoff game against the #2 team in the state, in the first round no less.

Should tell you everything you need to know about the value of a conference championship under the current format. 2-7 Avon who finished dead last in said conference and also a 4 TD loser to Brownsburg drew another 2-7 team IN THE SAME SECTIONAL.

Make it make sense.

I don't know.  For most programs a state title is very much realistically out of their grasp while a conference championship can be a  much more achievable goal to strive for.   

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