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1 hour ago, RegionFBFan said:

I just don’t think Indiana has enough High Schools participating in football to support 8 classes. Too much dilution.

i believe Ohio and Illinois have 8 classes. How many schools play football? I think Ohio has double the schools not sure about Illinois.

Illinois has about 200 more schools playing football than we do and you are correct on Ohio (about twice as many). As many people have said on here a few different times, the simplest of solutions to eliminate dilution, in general, is probably to go to a true playoff format of some sort (which we all know the IHSAA doesn't want). That's kind of why I just settled for some "dilution" by going to 8 classes in order to compromise/ maintain the IHSAA's equitable/ all-inclusive postseason system. 

Edited by CoachMack219
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22 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

I still like the earlier reco with:

6A:32

5A: 64

4A:64

3A:64

2A:64

1A:32

 

Agreed (as I mentioned prior to my lengthy proposal post) that this is the simplest of solutions given our current structure. I wouldn't mind this at all with either of the sectional seeding styles you mentioned and the neutral site semi-states. 

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4 hours ago, RegionFBFan said:

I still like the earlier reco with:

6A:32

5A: 64

4A:64

3A:64

2A:64

1A:32

 

How much value is there in a 1A state championship after 3-4 teams in the class drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle?  That is my primary reason for opposing 1A having only 32 schools.

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2 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

How much value is there in a 1A state championship after 3-4 teams in the class drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle?  That is my primary reason for opposing 1A having only 32 schools.

Has that actually happened where 3-4 schools dropped football or closed in a given year or two?

Edited by tango
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15 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

How much value is there in a 1A state championship after 3-4 teams in the class drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle?  That is my primary reason for opposing 1A having only 32 schools.

If this is a legitimate concern, we could just utilize our brain power (decision makers) and write a clause or bylaw into the classification rules that would allow 1A to be corrected/ adjusted to always have 32 teams, given extreme circumstances such as "teams in 1A drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle, (list other reasons), or otherwise." I was even kind enough to begin drafting the clause for 'em! Lol 

I'll be honest, one of my primary reasons for supporting 1A having 32 teams as opposed to 5A is the health and safety of the 1A players. Do we truthfully believe that it's "more grueling" for 5A schools with rosters of anywhere from 50-100 guys to go through their season than it is for 15-35 guys on 1A rosters, most of whom are playing all 3 ways? Let's give those 1A guys the extra week to get healthy before the postseason. Valpo, Merrillville, Whiteland, Decatur Central, and the like will manage just fine without a Bye, in my opinion. 

13 hours ago, tango said:

Has that actually happened where 3-4 schools dropped football or closed in a given year or two?

My initial thought/ question. I just decided to play along and attempt a solution for HoopsCoach's proposed problem.  

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17 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

How much value is there in a 1A state championship after 3-4 teams in the class drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle?  That is my primary reason for opposing 1A having only 32 schools.

If I read this properly, you actually are proposing going below 32 teams. What CoachMack is proposing is that it would never go below 32. 
 

If your argument is simply opposed to having 32 teams in a class and thus it devalues a championship then you must currently oppose 6A and 5A with32 schools.

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8 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

If I read this properly, you actually are proposing going below 32 teams. What CoachMack is proposing is that it would never go below 32. 
 

If your argument is simply opposed to having 32 teams in a class and thus it devalues a championship then you must currently oppose 6A and 5A with32 schools.

I believe what he is saying is that less than 32 teams would devalue a championship. 5A and 6A have 32 currently and have a much less of a chance at shutting down a program before the season begins or not being able to finish because of injury. 1A could begin with 32 and be at 28 by the end of a two year cycle. I know a few years ago (2021?) we had at least two 1A schools shut the program down right before the season began. It's not a ridiculous thing to consider.

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2 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I believe what he is saying is that less than 32 teams would devalue a championship. 5A and 6A have 32 currently and have a much less of a chance at shutting down a program before the season begins or not being able to finish because of injury. 1A could begin with 32 and be at 28 by the end of a two year cycle. I know a few years ago (2021?) we had at least two 1A schools shut the program down right before the season began. It's not a ridiculous thing to consider.

Last year (2023)... Traders Point dropped to 8 man football.

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18 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

How much value is there in a 1A state championship after 3-4 teams in the class drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle?  That is my primary reason for opposing 1A having only 32 schools.

Quick. Someone tell Snider its championship is devalued since 5A only had 31 teams last year. 

Edited by oldtimeqb
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Congrats Coach Gilbert on the new gig.  Well done taking the Westfield program to another level!

I seem to remember another former Indiana high school coach for a large, stellar program leaving to go to Wabash.  Wabash was not his final stop.....

#LEO

 

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On 3/11/2024 at 7:24 PM, tango said:

Has that actually happened where 3-4 schools dropped football or closed in a given year or two?

Yes. In the 2 year cycle of 22-23 and 23-24, there were actually 6 schools included in the 1A alignment which did not compete in the 1A tournament during the 2nd year of the cycle.  Traders Point Christian, Anderson Prep Academy, Rock Creek Academy, Oldenburg Academy, Indiana Deaf, and Dugger Union did not compete in the tournament.  So if 1A had started with 32 in this cycle, the tournament this year would have included 26 teams.  Sectionals would start with 4 teams in each, so if one or two teams drop from the tournament, you end up with a 1 game sectional.  Indianapolis Tindley could have won a sectional without playing a single game.  Looking at who the 32 smallest schools were, it is very possible that a sectional would have included Traders Point, Indiana Deaf, Tindley, and Anderson Prep.  That would be the definition of a participation trophy.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 10:35 AM, JQWL said:

I believe what he is saying is that less than 32 teams would devalue a championship. 5A and 6A have 32 currently and have a much less of a chance at shutting down a program before the season begins or not being able to finish because of injury. 1A could begin with 32 and be at 28 by the end of a two year cycle. I know a few years ago (2021?) we had at least two 1A schools shut the program down right before the season began. It's not a ridiculous thing to consider.

Correct, that was my point, as further illustrated with my example above.

 

On 3/12/2024 at 9:08 AM, CoachMack219 said:

If this is a legitimate concern, we could just utilize our brain power (decision makers) and write a clause or bylaw into the classification rules that would allow 1A to be corrected/ adjusted to always have 32 teams, given extreme circumstances such as "teams in 1A drop football or close all together in a 2 year cycle, (list other reasons), or otherwise." I was even kind enough to begin drafting the clause for 'em! Lol 

I'll be honest, one of my primary reasons for supporting 1A having 32 teams as opposed to 5A is the health and safety of the 1A players. Do we truthfully believe that it's "more grueling" for 5A schools with rosters of anywhere from 50-100 guys to go through their season than it is for 15-35 guys on 1A rosters, most of whom are playing all 3 ways? Let's give those 1A guys the extra week to get healthy before the postseason. Valpo, Merrillville, Whiteland, Decatur Central, and the like will manage just fine without a Bye, in my opinion. 

Doing this would result in a mid-cycle change of classification for schools.  There is already the potential for mid-cycle moves due to success factor (see Dwenger last season and the 3 team sectional that resulted), so the IHSAA might as well just realign the sectionals every year.  The leadership group already hates doing it every 2 years, so I don’t think they want to do something that increases the need to realign more often.  I do agree with the extra time for smaller schools to recover, but I think that can be accomplished by giving smaller schools the option to play an 8-game regular season.

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2 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

Yes. In the 2 year cycle of 22-23 and 23-24, there were actually 6 schools included in the 1A alignment which did not compete in the 1A tournament during the 2nd year of the cycle.  Traders Point Christian, Anderson Prep Academy, Rock Creek Academy, Oldenburg Academy, Indiana Deaf, and Dugger Union did not compete in the tournament.  So if 1A had started with 32 in this cycle, the tournament this year would have included 26 teams.  Sectionals would start with 4 teams in each, so if one or two teams drop from the tournament, you end up with a 1 game sectional.  Indianapolis Tindley could have won a sectional without playing a single game.  Looking at who the 32 smallest schools were, it is very possible that a sectional would have included Traders Point, Indiana Deaf, Tindley, and Anderson Prep.  That would be the definition of a participation trophy.

 

 

Of those six schools, four ... TPC, RCA, ISD, and Dugger Union ... moved to 8-on-8. 

Another wrinkle in the 32 for 1A also becomes that the vast majority of schools that will play 8-on-8 will be 1A schools and you may have some movement up as well.  Faith Christian just started playing football for the first time and did so as an 8-on-8 program and has already decided, after one season, that they want to play 11-man next season.  Granted, they aren't eligible for post-season due to their newness, but I bet that if 1A went to 32, ISD might just jump back into the fray in 11-man.  And they played 11-man for over two decades in 1A, so they wouldn't necessarily be a "newcomer."  Would that then push someone out of 1A in that rotation or would there be a +1 in one of the sectionals?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/12/2024 at 3:00 PM, WCGrad92 said:

i see team discrepancies in mine as well, though, I am pretty sure Faith Christian doesnt play football, but yet i have them in there

 

If that is the case, then Taylor probably moves back down to 1A, and Western Boone would be the smallest of those schools with 413 enrollment due to the smallest Freshman Class, 

Faith Christian fielded an 8 man team last year and will be going to an 11 man team in the 2024 football campaign.

They are building a turf football/soccer stadium to be ready for the 24-25 season.

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5 hours ago, Mod22 said:

Faith Christian fielded an 8 man team last year and will be going to an 11 man team in the 2024 football campaign.

They are building a turf football/soccer stadium to be ready for the 24-25 season.

I'm surprised they spent the money on football/soccer stadium; especially given that they are just moving to 11-man.  Then again, Faith has fairly extensive locations around town and gets some community monies tied to providing community services like the skate ramp park over on the east side campus. 

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10 hours ago, foxbat said:

I'm surprised they spent the money on football/soccer stadium; especially given that they are just moving to 11-man.  Then again, Faith has fairly extensive locations around town and gets some community monies tied to providing community services like the skate ramp park over on the east side campus. 

Faith has money to burn, what with it's large size and somewhat militant approach to tithing for its members. Mr. Viars runs that organization with an iron fist, and he wasn't shy several years ago about making sure Faith could use the  power of local government to get his hands on that sweet, sweet bond money:  https://www.purdueexponent.org/city/article_76f488fe-ad76-543f-8a67-148430583373.html

Edited by Muda69
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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Faith has money to burn, what with it's large size and somewhat militant approach to tithing for its members. Mr. Viars runs that organization with an iron fist, and he wasn't shy several years ago about making sure Faith could use the  power of local government to get his hands on that sweet, sweet bond money:  https://www.purdueexponent.org/city/article_76f488fe-ad76-543f-8a67-148430583373.html

To be quite fair to Faith, while most religious institutions tend to do for them and theirs, Faith has worked with the local government to provide some facilities for the use of the community as a whole and not just their congregation.  Faith built the, currently, only skate park in the Lafayette area and it's open to the community.  Even when folks were worried that Faith's current expansion efforts might end up overrunning that park, Faith has committed to the community that it will find space on its grounds to make sure that there will be an available skate park.

My main surprise with them building a football stadium is that, they had a rental deal with Jeff last season for 8-man that cost them pretty close to nothing.  The issue is likely that, with the move to 11-man, that arrangement would be much tougher to pull off because 8-man usually played on Saturdays.  Then again, Cathedral has used other institutions' ground for their home field too and, with five other schools with very nice facilities in the Lafayette area, I'd have to imagine that at least one of them would be open on any given Friday night.  Toss in Benton Central just up the road less than a half hour and there's a half dozen locations.  Until Faith gets stable in football, it would seem like a better fiduciary route.  Of course, Faith's always been known for soccer around here, so perhaps it's being built as a soccer venue that allows football to be played on the pitch as opposed to the traditional Indiana setup of a football field with the orange and blue spray paint on the gridiron.

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1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Of course, Faith's always been known for soccer around here, so perhaps it's being built as a soccer venue that allows football to be played on the pitch as opposed to the traditional Indiana setup of a football field with the orange and blue spray paint on the gridiron.

Bingo.

 

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