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The year: 2037. The week after Thanksgiving. Early evening; it’s dark. The scene: A farm house. 8 Publics are playing cards around a table; other Publics are drinking and talking. The mood is festive. Three P/P’s are crouched outside of the window watching the festivities. _______________________ Jimtown: What game are we playing? Linton-Stockton: How about 5 card draw? Northwood: Sounds good. Reitz: Ok, I’ll deal. Adams Central: It sure is fun around here this time of year. New Palestine: Yep, another great state championship weekend for us. Lowell: Sure beats the old days. Heritage Hills: No kidding. Remember how we used to lose to all of the P/P’s? NorthWood: Yeah. That was terrible. Jimtown: Not anymore. This was 10 in a row for us. Lowell: I know. 3 for us. And 9 straight finals appearances. Reitz: Don’t remind me. You’ve beaten us three years in a row. Lowell: Yeah, but you won the three prior to that. Reitz: True. Oh well. You can beat us every year for all you did back in 2025. Lowell: Ahh, the war of 2025. It’s too bad it cost so many lives. Jimtown: Yep, programs lost, AD’s fired. The carnage was unbelievable. Fishers: What are you guys talking about? Western Boone: The war of 2025. Don’t you remember? NorthWood: He was pretty young back then. Linton, you explain what happened. Linton-Stockton: OK. Back before the IHSAA banned P/P’s from participating in football, they used to beat us constantly. For years and years, we were their punching bags. We tried everything. Success bumps, multipliers, economic adjustments, bumping them all up a class. Nothing worked. They kept winning. It didn’t matter what class we put them in. Jimtown: Yep. 2025, that was the year everything came to a head. P/P's won the state championship in all six classes. Carmel was the only Public in the finals and Cathedral beat them 62 to 7. Reitz: All of the Publics got together and mutinied. A huge demonstration took place at GID which turned into a mass riot. Publics and P/P’s viciously attacked each other. There was bloodshed, bruised egos, damaged expectations, and destroyed reputations. The IHSAA was finally forced to do something to avoid further injuries. Linton-Stockton: The P/P’s weren’t allowed to play football anymore! Jimtown: That’s right. There was some discussion of putting them all in the same class but we all thought that would cheapen our tournaments. So me, Lowell, Linton-Stockton, and most of the others here, led the coup which resulted in elimination of all football programs in P/P schools. It was a beautiful day when it happened. Linton-Stockton: Yep, it was beautiful. We haven’t lost since. Jimtown: Well, I have to give you credit, Lin. You have a great coach, a very good feeder program, and a really committed community supporting you. You deserve the success you’ve had. Linton-Stockton: Thanks, Jim. See, Fishers? Look around the room at all of the success. We’ve won 11 straight state championships. NorthWood, 11 straight regionals, 8 semi-states and 5 state championships; Heritage Hills, 11 straight finals appearances, 6 state championships; Adams Central, 11 regionals, 6 semi-states. That is some serious success we’re talking about. Reitz: Yeah. Look at Jimtown for example. Sure they won 4 state championships under the old system, but since we instituted the new system in 2026, they’ve won 7 out of the last 11. That wouldn’t have been possible if the P/P’s were still around. Tri-West Hendricks: True. But you have to admit there are extenuating factors. West Lafayette: What do you mean? Tri-West Hendricks: I don’t mean to be bitter. But we’ve been to semi-state 9 times and have lost to Jimtown each time. They have a higher median income than we do. We have way more students in the federal lunch program than they do. Many of our students live on farms and are unable to play football. I respect what they have accomplished but it is hardly a level playing field. Jimtown: Wait a minute. I don’t think YOU understand! We’ve spent decades developing our youth program. It is one of the best in the state. We’ve created a culture where all of the kids in the community want to play football and their parents, many of whom played at Jimtown when they were in high school, support the program. The kids get good instruction for 6 years prior to even getting to high school. It isn’t our problem that you haven’t made the same commitment to get where we are. Tri-West Hendricks: That’s fine, but it is YOU who don’t understand! We can never get to the point you are at with our community. We don’t have the income; we don’t have the parental involvement; we don’t have the same pool of kids that you do. Jimtown: Pool of kids? We have the same pool of kids. That is what the class system is for. We each have nearly the same number of kids so we are in the same class. I don’t know what “pool of kids” has to do with anything. Tri-West Hendricks: You draw kids from a much larger area than we do. Kids are drawn to your program because of its success. The more success you have, the more kids want to play there, the better your kids get, the more success you have, the more kids want to play there, and on and on. We can’t compete with that. It isn’t about effort. No amount of effort can get us there. It’s not fair! In the meantime, Western Boone was toasting to the Publics’ success. "Gentlemen," concluded Western Boone, "I will give you the same toast as before, but in a different form. Fill your glasses to the brim. Gentlemen, here is my toast: To the prosperity of The Publics!" There was the same hearty cheering as before, and the mugs were emptied to the dregs. But as the P/P’s outside gazed at the scene, it seemed to them that some strange thing was happening. What was it that had altered in the faces of the Publics? Their eyes flitted from one face to another. Some of them had five chins, some had four, some had three. But what was it that seemed to be melting and changing? Then, the applause having come to an end, the company took up their cards and continued the game that had been interrupted, and the P/P’s crept silently away. But they had not gone twenty yards when they stopped short. An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that Jimtown and Tri-West Hendricks had each played an ace of spades simultaneously. Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the Publics. The P/P’s outside looked from Public to P/P, and from P/P to Public, and from Public to P/P again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

It's pretty clear we now have a new generation here on the GID, you gotta love these 20 year old subjects getting new legs.

I can't believe we are white collar. I didn't get the memo. I'm gonna ask for a raise.

Chatard’s football numbers are pretty public as are the affiliate feeder schools. The varsity roster is 76-77 (forget which) and the Freshmen team has 35 for a total of 111 kids. Assuming roughly 700 kids that’s 16% of the entire student body or 32% of all boys if the school is divided 50/50 boy and girls. Chatard’s situation is unique (possibly shared with Cathedral) in that it is very typical for parents to strongly encourage their Freshman boys to go out for Freshman football as a head start in getting to know their male classmates (assuming they don’t participate in any competing Fall sport). The role of the Freshman coaches (which was lead by Coach Doyle up until 3 years ago) was obviously to teach and coach up kids but a very important role of the Freshman coach was to make it fun and RETAIN kids for the next year move up to Varsity. The fact that parents almost utilize Freshman football as a pre-Freshman summer camp for their boys sets the stage for markedly higher football participation rates than normal.....even for a P/P. Funny thing is that sometimes that 98 lb hopeless Freshman who didn’t quit before he even started, sticks with it, then has a Jr. year growth spurt and turns into a gorilla his Senior year. Doesn’t always happen but it does happen. That said, are we supposed to penalize/punish/bump up (pick your word of choice) schools for high participation rates? Maybe, rather, we should seek to model that. Edit - God forbid what Chatard would be like if it wasn’t splitting almost 50% of its North Deanery football players with Cathedral and Brebeuf. Could you imagine combining Chatard and Cathedral into a single North Deanery parochial.....

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

Clearly there are a few posters here who don't know Dick.

Public School can also accept out of boundary students if Family pays tuition. Most Public schools are open I believe. So is it really an advantage?

The most ludicrous and persistent one that keeps popping up is that P/Ps control their enrollment numbers in order to insure athletic success by not migrating upward in classes.

Lysander, it looks like it might be that time again.

That's why I said I wasn't going to convince you, just tell you you're wrong. I'll take my own personal experience along with dozens of others over some emotionallcharged and butt hurt fan who just had their season wrecked by a P/P. I see this every year. -P/P's don't cap their enrollments to remain in certain classes to pad their trophy cases -P/P's don't take kids from all over the entire to line their athletic sidelines -P/P's don't give scholarships out to their athletes I've been on the GID going on close to 12 years and this type of stuff comes this time of year, every year, usually by the opponent of a team recently smacked by a P/P, namely Chatard or Cathedral. There are absolutely inherent advantages that P/P's enjoy over like-sized publics, namely participation rates and parent involvement, and I've never steered from that. But you aren't the first, and certainly won't be the last to suggest that schools like Chatard cap their enrollment so they can stay in a class and pad their trophy case.

But Carmel has sushi.

I feel like many of the arguments in this thread are one sided. "We have to play private schools with more advantages." The reply is, "The world isn't' fair." "We got bumped up and have to play in a bigger class." Shouldn't the reply, "The world isn't fair" apply here too?

I think the teams to keep an eye on are Carmel, New Palestine, Evansville Memorial, Chatard, Western Boone, and Lafayette Central Catholic.

The lawmakers and IHSAA don't have equitability in mind, that is for sure.

I think it's about this simple. If you're going to private school, it's much more likely that you have a parent that cares about you enough to make you and your education a priority. Are there any private schools anyone knows of that have a program to send home food with some students on weekends because they know those kids are usually only fed on free/reduced lunch programs at school. Parents that don't care enough to get them to school consistently or in condition to learn anything (aside from not being fed, also not coming to school well rested or with their personal hygiene attended to). Some of these kids aren't coming to school with a chance to accomplish much of anything, let alone win state titles in various athletic events. Bottom line is that, on-average, the fact that a parent is willing to put their resources into sending their kid to a private school, whatever their reasons are, sadly means they have an advantage that a significant number of kids attending many public schools don't.

I wouldn’t call it cheating. It’s an advantage though. Private school parents do make a sacrifice, it’s a different level of commitment. That translates down through the kids. Not everyone is in a position to make that sacrifice. Also would all public school kids qualify academically? Special needs kids? These all would count towards enrollment at public schools.

Open enrollment changed the game, right on the money @Coach Nowlin Really the only (non location) advantage a private school COULD possibly have anymore is if the church affiliated with the school were helping them out behind the scenes....BUT this doesn't really happen. Especially in this day and age, nothing is a secret. Even if they wanted to "cheat" or "have advantages" or whatever you wanna whine about, it wouldn't go unnoticed. The fact is people don't like watching the Yankees, win the title. It can feel a little like that when you see an LCC or a Chatard win again. But constantly accusing them of cheating is just robbing the kids of the credit they deserve. Football is still played on the same field with the same rules.

DT an idiot....hates Valpo and region football except for Russ R and Phil Mason(though both of them got run out of tourney) ..probably the only one in the state that thinks Valpo lost because they were too soft....just so foolish not even worth getting worried about...

After looking at the stats some more.....I think ALL PAC needs to expand a bit to include 3 WRs. Seth delong had the 5th beat receiving year ever for a GS player (at least to what I can find). He led the PAC in receiving with 830 yards and had 11 scores to go with it. Maybe the format isn’t inclusive enough for WRs/TEs......The kid from SR is certainly worthy and everyone knows ben butler is uber talented and deserving....but man. if you lead the PAC in receiving and receiving touchdowns and you are only honorable mention...it just isn’t right. maxpreps doesn’t have classes broken up correctly but I believe Seth was #5 in receiving yards this year in 3A. im not looking to stir trouble. All players listed are very deserving. Just believe there should be more WRs to be ALL PAC 1st team

I agree. Let it fly. One of the greatest GID posts I've ever seen.

Would be a perennially nationally ranked program

Something about frying the fish takes away the mystique?

I heard private schools have better deserts at lunch... ridiculous.

Better start by getting more participation from your student body.

We just got our butt kicked by Chatard. Nobody cares about excuses. My 12 year old son came to me during the game Friday and said, "do you realize that their team is 1/5 the size of our entire school?!?!?!" My reply to him was that none of this matters. Nobody cares about excuses. Until Indiana changes the rules we just have to work harder and find a way to win.

Pike is an A school by the DOE, the only in Marion County. There are smart kids walking the hallways. Most students walking the hallways at Pike are eligible to play sports. The biggest factors (having walked these hallways for a 3-year period in the late 00’s) are lack of interest and a number of athletes moving out of the district. Over 80% of the football program as a whole were on free/reduced lunch. In my 23 years of being around football as a coach, what a student pays for their lunch has never mattered in the overall health of a football program. Pike btw is actually getting smaller and is projected to be under 2,800 in the next decade. Ben Davis and Warren Central for that matter come from two of the poorest communities in the State of Indiana, yet have thriving athletic programs. Why? They have hard working student athletes, money invested into their programs and great coaches (two of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the country). I don’t know about BD, but I know a LARGE LARGE majority of players in the WC football program are on free/reduced lunch. Where you all should be looking is money spent and resources available at the best programs. Lake Central, Pike, Noblesville, Crown Point (has improved some in money spent), Tech, all of these programs don’t spend near the amount of money toward their program as the others are spending. None of those are the true point though as it is this is a “Big 4 Problem.” It’s not an issue for all of 6A. It’s mainly the Big 4 of the MIC (at least to this point in the tournament.) Carmel went south in 11 and 12, so if we look at 2013-2019, out of those 7 years, these 4 teams have dominated the semi-state rounds: Carmel - 7 appearances Center Grove - 6 appearances Ben Davis - 4 appearances Warren Central - 2 appearances (19 of 28, 7 is by the north regional winner, and the other 2 are by Avon) If we split the 6A tournament into 2 divisions (by the way, currently 12 Indy area teams and 4 northern Indiana meaning travel would be an absolute disaster) we would eventually get to the point of having 4 teams dominate the top division. My point is going into 2 divisions only solves the issue for schools 17-32. Over the last decade, it’s safe to say they would have had somewhere between 6-8 different winners. In the top division, it’s a proven fact that over the last 10 years the top division would have been won by Carmel 3 times, Ben Davis 2 times, Warren 2 times, CG 1 time (if we assume they’d be on top division based on success) and the others 2 times (2010 & 2012.) 2012 was a state finals by 2 6A-2 schools and CG just happened to be the next best team, so we could technically say that CG would’ve won in 2012 as well. This just comes back to the point that the issue is the Big 4. They’re dominating everyone else, and if given the opportunity, 8 out of 10 times, these teams would dominate the semi-state round. I don’t know there is a solution that is fair. If we allow teams 17-32 (oh, and if you thought travel was bad for 6A-1, you should see it for 6A-2 — that’s certainly not going to help attendance) to have their own tournament, suddenly you’re going to have multiple winners in that division and the same winners in the big division. Yes, I understand that other schools are getting better, but we can only use current data for this, and the current data shows that only 4 schools have dominated. If CG were in Division 2 all along, CG would have 9 titles, LC 1 (both MIC teams) and D1 would have 7 MIC titles, 1 by Penn (2015 loss to CG), 1 by Fishers and based on the way the tournament went in 2012, 1 by Merrillville. Again, this doesn’t support the theory that the tournament should be split into 16 teams each. At some point you have to draw the line.

That’s my point. Center Grove’s success is built into their system - it is organic.....although it was a coaching and administrative decision to go that path originally. CG competes at the highest level each and every year against schools that are multiples of their size. That aside, simply attributing New Pal’s success to one player sells them short. A great coach came along roughly 7 years ago and built a hugely successful program up almost overnight. I don’t doubt for a second that he would have found a way to win these last few years without a great RB. But there lies the difference - New Pal has a brilliant coach that harnessed existing talent.

Congrats to GV5 with the Pick 'em victory!! Congrats to the Eastbrook Panthers for a great season! Until next season, everybody stay safe and root on the CIC!!! GridIron Standings.xlsx

Yep - Gonna be my house this year. 2 trips in November, a vacation and then Thanksgiving. Heading out of town tomorrow to NC. Light number one has not even been pulled out of the basement yet......

OK dusting this off from the 3A thread: We all know that with 10k-15k a year in Indy (6K in Evansville) for tuition at a P&P by default the "quality" of student-athlete is generally going to be "higher", for lack of a better word, than the equivalent sized public. Take for example a GS or HH who probably has some of the lowest free and assisted lunch in the state by percentage of the student body in 3A for publics. Even with that, GS and HH simply won't have the same number of quality student-athletes walking the halls as their p&p counterparts by the percentage of enrollment (with the exception of some generational aboratinon). Anyone who denies that is simply hiding their head in the sand. I can tell you that we have kids at GS (ie part of our enrollment numbers) who are only there because they have a pulse and the law says that they have to be (and we have much less than most other publics our size) not to mention the kids in life-skills based classes. Again, "generally", folks who can make the sacrifice to send their kids to a P&P have certain qualities in common that I don't need to list here that are both "natured" and "nurtured" into their kids. Does this quality "stock" always result in a strong tradition in any sport? Certainly not, however, when the key variables are in place, the same variables that it takes to have success at a public in a given sport...ie, community, youth league, parent support, coaching etc., those variables are multiplied by a factor "x" across a deeper bench so to speak. As I have mentioned before, as a case study in the SIAC, Memorial vs Castle. This P&P typically runs head to head with its public rival in terms of conference championships boys and girls. This would indicate both schools have a similar bench depth across a wide variety of sports, boys, and girls. Castle enrollment 1965, Memorial enrollment 609. Castle isn't exactly a district of struggling families. Some pretty easy math even for a public educated kid can see the disparity here in the ratio there of total enrollment to quality student-athlete. You see this all over the state. What does it mean? Does Memorial have better coaches? Do memorial kids have a better work ethic? Is it that the early poor immigrant Catholics into Southwestern Indiana were blue-collared people that instilled an incredible physical culture and work ethic over generations significantly impacting their ability to succeed in girls soccer? There clearly are some public representatives on the GID that are advocates of "everything is fine" or perhaps that are even against the success factor. Many of those seem to fall into one of a few buckets: Those who have advanced in the state tournament over a p&p at some point in school history or public's that are geographically aligned in such a way that they get quality imports or perhaps in such a way that P&Ps aren't an issue in their path. There will always be a subset with a certain machismo or the "put your head down and go to work" mentality that simply won't admit the above paradigm is simply a fact. That is the nature of our sport and I wouldn't' change that for the world. Those folks know it's true but the "football guy" in them simply won't let admit that there are certain inherent advantages. Reasonable, intelligent men and women can't debate on if a solution is necessary, if the one we have is adequate or if additional measures are needed at all. I simply can't wrap my head around how any reasonable person on either side of these arguments can say P&Ps and public are equitably measured by enrollment alone. Just simply say....sure they have advantages...but I don't care...I like the challenge. That I can accept.

Columbus East is a top 10 job in the entire state... not even debatable.. The MIC power 4, Cathedral, Chatard, New PAL, CE

.I think we finally agree on something! "Pretty simple really. Socioeconomic factors. Walk down the hallways at a place like Chatard and/or Memorial or any P/P, then walk down the halls of a public school with a high free/reduced and other factors that may not be ideal for extra-curricular participation. "

Going in to this game, I thought Webo would win by 10 and I didn't think there was anyway EB was going to score 20 or more. I thought EB may break a long run or pass play to score once or twice (the reverse put them in a position to score their TD), but I felt that Webo would shut down the running game of EB. Webo's Starting D gave up 27 points in 6 tournament games (7 to N Put, 13 to TC, 7 to EB). Coach Brunes is an absolute mastermind as a DC. He took away everything EB did and with EB being pretty much 1 dimensional they struggled to move the ball. Spencer Wright was a man on Saturday. The kid doesn't care about his stats (look at last year to this year) but just wants to win. Cortez Stoudemire and Connor Hole were dudes on Saturday. Brett Wethington & Luke Marsh were solid. And Robby Taylor did what Robby Taylor has done all year. And Webo's OL & DL were outstanding all day Saturday. Congrats to EB on a great run the last 4 years. Congrats to the Stars on going Back to Back!

It was literally a contingency of my wife’s acceptance of my marriage proposal some 32 years ago.....along with having to ask her dad. It was not something I had even considered at the time but was critical to her. As it turned out, it has become a center point of our lives in every possible way. A very happy accident for me. Sports was never, ever a consideration.

Well to start, some parents believe in a Faith based education.

I feel like the greater the advantage lies in the smaller classes. It's apparent when there 3 private school state champions in Classes 1A through 4A. Most of the smaller schools lie in rural areas where, yes open enrollment exists but schools are spaced out enough that you just get the kids that are in your boundaries. Private schools typically have more money, more coaches, more players than a public school of equal classification.

I’m so happy for the Greyhounds and glad to see my son win a state championship.

And you asked me why I thought the postseason was watered down? You just answered your own question. Adding a 7th class of 16 teams no less, just so a namesake high school can win a state title instead of another school is the definition of a watered down postseason.

It was many, many years ago. I know the comment was just made originally in an attempt at an insult, but there's really never a reason to insult a janitor in any event. I agree. And my perspective came from being his janitor. Same goes for all the other coaches and administrators at Carmel in 1973-74. It was a great job for a high school kid from a different school.

You don't think so? I've been a janitor at Carmel. I cleaned Dick Dullaghan's office and was privy to his halftime talks when he coached there. He treated the janitors with respect, unlike you.

I don’t want to take away anything from any of the kids on Memorial’s D. They got a lot of contributions from a slew of kids - Brackett, Johnson, Jones, Stepto, Lively, Agler, etal. But Brock Combs and Ben Johnson are a lethal combination. Ben’s as smart of a defensive mind as you’ll run into at the HS level. And Brock is just a rare physical specimen with an insatiable killer instinct and a twin-turbo motor with a bottomless fuel tank.

You should be banned for name calling 🥺

I suspected there might possibly be a chance Eastbrook wouldn't be able to compete at the line of scrimmage this year as they turned over so many off their lines that competed last year and Western Boone returned several although probably not as deep in that area as they were last year. Obviously still plenty good. When I saw Eastbrook win the line of scrimmage against Andrean last week I thought they would be reasonably competitive today. Obviously wasn't the case. Congrats to Western Boone. Couldn't cheer for them today but I otherwise almost always am. Would've been interesting to see this team in the 3A tournament. Not at Chatard's level but would've been a decent game with several of the other top 3A teams I think. With all the sophomores contributing for Eastbrook, I think we may see them here again in the next couple years. It's ironic I think that the one year they didn't make it in the past four years was probably their best team and best opportunity to win it all.

😂😂😂 probably should’ve picked the other team and you would’ve been close on a prediction! Eastbrook really showed up! I am so taken aback by their performance.

thankfully, what you think doesn't matter. I'll take the actual results.

In terms of "Memorial has played far tougher competition'.....that's simply not true. Sagarin puts East Noble's SOS 68th in the state Memorial is at 84. EN has played 6 top 64 teams; Memorial played 3. EN's playoff run saw them beat DeKalb, which lost three games -- two of them to EN; Leo, which lost two games -- both to EN; Mississinewa, which only lost 2 games -- one to EN and one to 2A state finalist Eastbrook; and Hobart, who lost 3 games -- two to 6A schools and one to EN. That's a playoff path against teams that finished 40-4 in their games not involving EN. Parker gets rid of the ball so quick that it's hard to get pressure on him. I do think that if you can force them have to run the ball you can be somewhat successful......I just don't know how you do that. What is underrated is how good their defense is. They have had games where teams have put up 20+ on them, but part of that is the product of their offensive system and how many plays are going to get run. Hobart is a ball control offense and had a 17-0 lead and at the end of the day EN ran 77 plays on offense. EN 35, EM 21

EN will show up and do what they do. Win.

Yes. #57, Leyth Al-Mohammedawi, can flat out ball! He makes tackles for loss with 2-3 guys on him regularly. You leave him one on one. He burns you. Two on one, he and the linebackers burn you. Three on one, the linebackers kill you. There's a reason why the two linebackers lead the state in tackles. #57. The rest of the D line in no slouch either. They don't miss tackles This will be a replay of last week if the EN defense shows up. Plain and simple.