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foxbat

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Posts posted by foxbat

  1. 1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

    Faith has money to burn, what with it's large size and somewhat militant approach to tithing for its members. Mr. Viars runs that organization with an iron fist, and he wasn't shy several years ago about making sure Faith could use the  power of local government to get his hands on that sweet, sweet bond money:  https://www.purdueexponent.org/city/article_76f488fe-ad76-543f-8a67-148430583373.html

    To be quite fair to Faith, while most religious institutions tend to do for them and theirs, Faith has worked with the local government to provide some facilities for the use of the community as a whole and not just their congregation.  Faith built the, currently, only skate park in the Lafayette area and it's open to the community.  Even when folks were worried that Faith's current expansion efforts might end up overrunning that park, Faith has committed to the community that it will find space on its grounds to make sure that there will be an available skate park.

    My main surprise with them building a football stadium is that, they had a rental deal with Jeff last season for 8-man that cost them pretty close to nothing.  The issue is likely that, with the move to 11-man, that arrangement would be much tougher to pull off because 8-man usually played on Saturdays.  Then again, Cathedral has used other institutions' ground for their home field too and, with five other schools with very nice facilities in the Lafayette area, I'd have to imagine that at least one of them would be open on any given Friday night.  Toss in Benton Central just up the road less than a half hour and there's a half dozen locations.  Until Faith gets stable in football, it would seem like a better fiduciary route.  Of course, Faith's always been known for soccer around here, so perhaps it's being built as a soccer venue that allows football to be played on the pitch as opposed to the traditional Indiana setup of a football field with the orange and blue spray paint on the gridiron.

    • Like 1
  2. 5 hours ago, Mod22 said:

    Faith Christian fielded an 8 man team last year and will be going to an 11 man team in the 2024 football campaign.

    They are building a turf football/soccer stadium to be ready for the 24-25 season.

    I'm surprised they spent the money on football/soccer stadium; especially given that they are just moving to 11-man.  Then again, Faith has fairly extensive locations around town and gets some community monies tied to providing community services like the skate ramp park over on the east side campus. 

  3. 7 hours ago, BTF said:

    IHSAA calls it "unique," which is laughable. There's a reason only one state does it this way, because it's really kind of stupid. If the Brownsburg/Ben Davis game didn't open eyes, than nothing will. What would Texas, California, Georgia, or Ohio say if they were told, "by the way, the two best teams in the state are going to meet in the first round." They'd declare lunacy. Would these same people who voted against seeding vote for a blind draw for the college football playoff? We all know the answer to that. Kudos to Bob Gaddis for his politically correct response. 

     

    No they wouldn't.  The Texas post-season system while not all-in, does nothing at all to "seed" teams outside of, in the past, putting the two largest of the four "winningest" teams in district in the Division I and the two smallest of the four "winningest" teams in district in the Division II.  They then square off with the next district numerically ... The top two largest teams of the top four "winningest" teams in District 1 square off against the top two  largest teams of the top four "winningest" teams in District 2.  If that produces #1 vs. #2 in the first game, called bi-district, then so be it.  Just the way it is.  You play who you play.  No lunacy, no whining, no nothing ... you just go out and play.

    • Like 1
  4. 8 hours ago, slice60 said:

    Maybe we can start a grass-roots movement in all sports-- the school that wins the highest class tournament is the STATE CHAMPION...the school that wins all of the smaller class tournaments are CLASS CHAMPIONS.

     

    6 hours ago, slice60 said:

    Lafayette Central Catholic (27)

    Baseball (9) 2003-04 (1A), 2006-07 (1A), 2008-09 (1A), 2009-10 (1A), 2010-11 (1A), 2011-12 (1A), 2012-13 (1A), 2021-22 (1A), 2022-23 (1A) Boys Basketball (3) 1997-98 (1A), 1999-00 (1A), 2002-03 (1A)

    Girls Basketball (3) 2005-06 (1A), 2014-15 (1A), 2015-16 (2A)

    Football (8) 1976-77 (1A), 1999-00 (1A), 2009-10 (1A), 2010-11 (1A), 2011-12 (1A), 2012-13 (1A), 2015-16 (1A), 2019-20 (1A)

    Girls Soccer (1) 2020-21 (1A)

    Volleyball (3) 2010-11 (1A), 2017-18 (1A), 2021-22 (1A)

    26 titles in Class 1A, 1 title in Class 2A. Back in the one-class era, LCC won zero State Championships. I rest my case.

     

    Not sure I understand the impetus for the thread nor even the LCC example.  I'm pretty sure about the most I've ever heard anyone say about a program is that they might have won the class above them that year as opposed to pretending that their title in their class makes them more than just that, the state champion in their class.  I'm not sure that 6A feels in the least "diminished" because a 3A school is also called a state champion along with the winner of 6A.  I'm also not really sure that the response to 6A school winning a state championship if they played a 1A team would be much more than, "duh."

    Of course, there are other issues with the proposal despite the straw man example of a 6A program beating a successful 1A school.  In 2019, there's a good argument that 5A New Pal likely would have clipped 6A Carmel even though Carmel won 6A.  Your proposed idea would have done exactly what, I'm assuming in spirit you are proposing to not have happen: let a "poser" call themselves state champion.

  5. On 3/13/2024 at 2:12 PM, Coach Nowlin said:

    Just putting this out there:  Gateway in INdiana where this data comes from is ANY MONEY the school corp pays you.   For instance, when I look at my "gateway" number, it is more than the teaching contract with the 2 varsity sports I coach and its stipends.   I do Middle School reffing for my AD, school has to put it on my payroll , which came from central office decision, so be it, but those type of things raises the number on Gateway.   

    Just throwing it out there.    

    Does that also include the implied value of the "free" faculty parking you get on the fourth row of the student parking lot? :classic_laugh:

    Lord, I apologize for that there.

  6. 2 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

    Yes. In the 2 year cycle of 22-23 and 23-24, there were actually 6 schools included in the 1A alignment which did not compete in the 1A tournament during the 2nd year of the cycle.  Traders Point Christian, Anderson Prep Academy, Rock Creek Academy, Oldenburg Academy, Indiana Deaf, and Dugger Union did not compete in the tournament.  So if 1A had started with 32 in this cycle, the tournament this year would have included 26 teams.  Sectionals would start with 4 teams in each, so if one or two teams drop from the tournament, you end up with a 1 game sectional.  Indianapolis Tindley could have won a sectional without playing a single game.  Looking at who the 32 smallest schools were, it is very possible that a sectional would have included Traders Point, Indiana Deaf, Tindley, and Anderson Prep.  That would be the definition of a participation trophy.

     

     

    Of those six schools, four ... TPC, RCA, ISD, and Dugger Union ... moved to 8-on-8. 

    Another wrinkle in the 32 for 1A also becomes that the vast majority of schools that will play 8-on-8 will be 1A schools and you may have some movement up as well.  Faith Christian just started playing football for the first time and did so as an 8-on-8 program and has already decided, after one season, that they want to play 11-man next season.  Granted, they aren't eligible for post-season due to their newness, but I bet that if 1A went to 32, ISD might just jump back into the fray in 11-man.  And they played 11-man for over two decades in 1A, so they wouldn't necessarily be a "newcomer."  Would that then push someone out of 1A in that rotation or would there be a +1 in one of the sectionals?

  7. 4 hours ago, JustRules said:

    I agree. Random draw with all-in does still determine the ultimate champion. It's just a very odd way to do it. Nobody would ever come up with this system if they were creating a new system from scratch. We just have too many people who grew up in this system and feel it's the only logical way to do it. People are inherently resistant to change regardless of how crazy the current system is.

    I'm kind of the opposite.  Coming from large school, Texas football ... my alma mater boasts some 3,000+ students in a school district that has like 10 6A schools ... I admit I had a big school bias in football and was very used to the idea of qualifiers and split p/p and public leagues.  Coming to Indiana over a couple of decades ago, this small school ball, 1A/2A, has quite grown on me as well as the all-in.  I still like watching big school games every once in a while; especially since my kids have attended Jeff and my sons play or will play at Harrison, but I still go and take in 1A/2A games each season just for the fun of it.

  8. 1 hour ago, JustRules said:

    I think the reason the all-in only works with a random draw is the teams at the bottom are very unlikely to be competitive in the first round. With a random draw they have the hope they'll draw another team at the bottom so they have a competitive game. That's what helps keep them motivated once they are out of conference title contention. The argument many make against a qualifier is once a team loses 3 or 4 early games they have nothing to play for. That's one of the key reasons I think there are some coaches opposed to seeding. They know they could always be that lower team praying for a lucky draw. 

    I'm not sure that's the only thing as there are still bragging rights games, traditional rivalries, etc., but there's some truth to that.  Coming out of Texas where the rankings are done based on standings in a district, you could be in a 10-team district and see your season ended by the 3rd game unless you pull an inside straight.  There were still rivalry games and "sister school" games that motivated teams to play on later in the season, but sometimes you were already looking a year into the future before that stench started to rise in the locker room.

    In Texas, we never thought much about districts because they were already set for you.  The state put you in, somewhat, geographic proximity with other same-size schools.  Think of the sectionals for Indiana at 1A-4A.  I'd conjecture that while everyone's talking about seeding/qualifiers, the one thing that I think Indiana's missing is "How will it impact conference structure?"  If random draw goes away and that supposedly automatically brings about qualifiers, then I'd also expect the a number of conferences to go away or completely realign from their current forms ... especially those that are mixed class ... and not through an organic process that we see now.

  9. 6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

    That 16 seed still QUALIFIED for the postseason. They effectively earned that right to get blown out by a #1 seed.

     

    2022 Monrovia is a statistical outlier. A complete anomaly. The only team in the 10 years I've tracked the postseason using Sagarin to seed the postseason that has beaten three top 32 teams en route to a sectional championship. That's it. And if I recall, that was a loaded sectional with a bunch of top 32 teams with Monrovia being just outside the top half at the conclusion of the regular season (34th or 35th). But because of the all-in, blind draw, the top 2 teams in that sectional played the first round making their path that much easier from the jump. Had they been seeded 1-8, not sure how Monrovia fares.

    But that's beyond the point. Cinderella is a myth when it comes to Indiana high school football, 2022 Monrovia be damned. If you seeded each sectional 1-8 or 1-4 in 5A/6A every year, it would put an end to this nonsense. True seeding would effectively start the qualifier domino. 

    That's conjecture.  You'd have an argument if Monrovia made it to the second round or even the sectional final and lost, but in essence, Monrovia did what everyone says you have to do to take that crown; they eventually played the best in that sectional and beat them.

    As for seeding them, go ahead and seed them.  It's not costing Indiana anything extra as there is already that "10th game."  Whether it's guaranteed terminal or guaranteed "near terminal," it's still on the books.  You can certainly argue about whether the schools get a "take" of the 10th game, but that's relatively easy to work out.

    Again, I've still not seen the reasoning that all-in only works with a random draw.  Perhaps it eventually leads to folks deciding to create a qualifier, but it's not fact that it only works with a random draw.  And maybe it does lead to a qualifier and maybe folks just say, "That's pretty much what we expect the first round to be and now it is pretty much guaranteed."  It just seems odd to me that there are statements of conjecture as fact and wanting to skip to the "foregone conclusion."  What does it hurt to seed first and see where it goes?

    • Like 1
  10. 1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

    All coaches adjust. Just like they did from the old cluster system. Just like they did for the success factor. Coaches will adjust once seeding is implemented down the road and then to ultimately a qualifier as that is inevitably the next step after seeding. The all-in cannot exist without the blind draw. 

    I've heard this said before as if it's fact, but I'm not seeing the logic behind it.  To be realistic, when we watch March Madness, very few folks expect that #16 seed to get to the Sweet 16 or, in many cases, even beyond the first round, yet everyone still watches and hopes and prays.  Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a #16 seed in the history of the tourney that has declined to play because the odds are against them.  Yes, the #16s still had to make a "cut," but outside of FDU and UMBC, #1 vs. #16 is 150-2.  In essence, they likely weathered the play as well as #70 that didn't make the Dance cutoff would have or possibly even #100 or possibly even #120. 

    All in, with a seed basically does what others are saying, makes the regular season more important, but not live or die important, while still allowing for lots of chances for the Cinderella story to happen, even if the Prince picks Cinderella for a mosh pit song.  The 10th game basically becomes a first round elimination of, as some would call them, "posers" and then moves on to the things at hand.

    Incidentally, answering the question "What's the difference between Monrovia's 2022 and 2020 2-7 regular seasons?" is the reason I'm an all-in fan.  Doesn't happen often, but it's enough to make me see it as having the 10th game of the season played as a tourney game.

  11. 16 minutes ago, Frozen Tundra said:

    @foxbat @HoopsCoach @superjay

    Hypothetical scenario for you. If Conference Indiana ever falls apart as it has been rumored for the past few years, could you see a scenario where the Sagamore grabs the two Terre Haute schools? I know that’s a two hour drive from Lafayette but the overall travel for them would still be shorter per season in a Sagamore with the Terre Haute schools than in the NCC.

    Harrison used to have THS on its non-con calendar back around 2020-2021, so it's not a foreign concept.

    If I were the Sagamore though, I would hold off on grabbing the Terre Haute schools as I suspect they might have better options; especially if someone like West Lafayette joins.  With that, you'd only need a couple of other teams to make an 8-team conference, and you could almost afford to be pickier at that point.  I suspect that the NCC, which claimed it kicked Harrison and McCutcheon out due to travel and "competitive balance" will likely turn their sights on Jeff once they realize that they look just like the two folks they kicked out.  Jeff might not be too far off from being #6 or #7.  If West Lafayette joins and Jeff's a potential, I suspect the TH schools would be in the running only if the conference wanted to get to 10 teams ... which I'm not sure they would want.

    • Like 1
  12. 4 minutes ago, tango said:

    Rule 9-13 No Sunday Athletic Participation There shall be no interschool athletic Contests, school Practices or school sponsored Camps/ Clinics held on Sunday. Calling One (1) or more team members together on Sunday for studying scouting reports, viewing films of games, any kind of participation, etc. will be considered a violation of this rule.

     

    Yeah, but these are the same guys that had four points to stay up, then two, now three ... what's one Sunday among friends?  Or the IHSAA? 🙂

    • Haha 2
  13. 17 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

    Two problems with that:

    1. Most people aren’t going to want to give up their Thanksgiving to attend, work, coach, or play a high school football game.

    2. Sundays don’t work because of religious reasons. I don’t think the parochial schools would appreciate Sunday games. There are also some kids and families that wouldn’t like it even if they weren’t affiliated with a parochial school.

    Officially, probably not, but a large number of p/p students are Catholic and we Catholics have vigil/Saturday Masses for weekend obligations.  Here in Lafayette/West Lafayette you can catch Mass at 7:00 pm and 9:00 pm on Sundays, during the school year, at St. Tom's.  I don't think it would be as much an issue for a single weekend; especially if there's a rotation of classes on Sunday.

  14. 11 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

    I mentioned on another site that I could see West Lafayette entertaining the possibility of moving to the Sagamore to be a 6th member. Doing so would then put the Hoosier Conference at 8 members.  West Side would still have room in their schedule to keep Central Catholic and at least 1 more rival from the Hoosier, plus potentially get Lafayette Jeff back on the schedule.  They fit competitively in the Sagamore and the natural rivalries with Harrison and McCutcheon would make it worth considering a move.  Here’s an example of what the opponents could look like for Harrison, McCutcheon, West Side, and Jeff.  I listed non-conference opponents first, but these aren’t necessarily in order since this is definitely hypothetical.

    Harrison

    Plainfield

    Brebeuf

    Lafayette Jeff

    Kokomo

    West Lafayette

    McCutcheon

    Lebanon

    Tri-West

    Danville

     

    McCutcheon

    Guerin Catholic

    Kokomo

    Terre Haute South

    Lafayette Jeff

    West Lafayette

    Lebanon

    Tri-West

    Danville

    Harrison

     

    West Lafayette (Sagamore)

    Central Catholic

    Rensselaer Central

    Twin Lakes

    Lafayette Jeff

    Lebanon

    Tri-West

    Danville

    Harrison

    McCutcheon

     

    Lafayette Jeff

    Cathedral

    West Lafayette

    Harrison

    McCutcheon

    Kokomo

    Marion

    Muncie Central

    Anderson

    Richmond

    If WL leaves the HC, it would likely singularly shift the dynamic of the conference to a small school conference even with HH and Western still in the conference.  For a while, it was often seen as a conference that punched above its weight class.  If WL left, and with RCHS going back to 2A and with BC dropping down from 3A to 2A a few seasons ago, that would leave no one in the West in the "bigger school" moniker in the West.  Even with HH and Western in the East, that would be seen as a circumstance as opposed to a feature of the conference.

    That Harrison schedule that you've laid out is a much better set of matchups than they had annually in the NCC, although probably still problematic for a 6A school.  The schools that benefit most from a WL move and the schedules you've laid out are WL and McCutcheon.  Jeff mainly benefits not from the schedule, as they still get to hang out in the NCC primarily, but from the fact that they are moving down to 5A.

  15. Not a bad move given the circumstances and (lack of) options.  Harrison has already played Tri-West in the undercard games, so there's some activity already there.  Given about three additional slots to fill, it may provide some addition interest from others to round that out.  Still provides Harrison the ability to pick up an additional five games out of conference right now which they will need to help them compete in their move to 6A.  They will be facing West Lafayette this year for a third consecutive season and that has to be a benefit for both in terms of having an extra "home" game even if if they are away.  They may still put Jeff on their schedule too, which both teams need, but frankly given that Jeff voted Harrison out of the NCC, I'd almost like to see Harrison find another 6A opponent to scratch that itch; especially if West Lafayette will be a continued opponent locally.  Harrison also has Brebeuf this next season which is also a nice pick-up.  Don't know if that's just going to be a home-and-home, but would be interesting to see if that evolves.  Harrison has actually played several of the Catholic schools on undercards including Chatard and Cathedral as well as now getting Brebeuf and playing Roncalli in the past as a varsity fill-in game during COVID.  Those schools aren't going to leave the Circle City, but as non-con games for Harrison, they would be nice matches.

  16. 3 hours ago, JustRules said:

    Not sure of the exact number of teams in each class in Illinois, but they do use a qualifier like every other state. If they have 32 teams in each class, that's the number that make the tournament. I also believe they don't set the class cutoffs until the qualified teams are determined. Then they split them into classes. Another very different approach. I personally like the playoff qualifier as it adds even more meaning to the regular season. People will argue teams that lose several games early will consider themselves out of the playoffs and not care any longer. In today's system they don't have to care either because they lose the rest of their games they still make the tournament so nothing changes for them. They are just hoping they get a lucky draw. If they don't their last game and their tournament game are no different.

    Texas used to do something like this wherein, after their teams were determined for the post-season, the top two teams in a district were placed in Division 1 and the 3rd/4th team were placed in Division 2.  All teams in a district were the same class, so you'd have, for example, two 6A Division 1 schools and two 6A Division 2 schools coming out of a district.  Was easy to do, but also had some lopsided number in the division because, in one district you could have four of the smallest teams in the state playing and thus, the top two teams in the district would be, likely, playing against much larger schools.  They've since changed things where they assign the schools to divisions before the season starts based on enrollment.  As such, Division 1 schools will be the biggest schools regardless of district.  You can see cutoffs here: https://www.texasfootball.com/article/2023/12/08/breaking-uil-announces-enrollment-cutoffs-for-2024-26-district-realignment.

    3 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

    How do you fit 10 state championship games in on Thanksgiving weekend at Lucas Oil Stadium?

    Texas played 12 championship games this past season; two divisions across six classes.  Took them four days to do it at AT&T Stadium ... three per day starting on Wednesday, but they weren't dancing around Thanksgiving though.  I can't imagine Indiana doing four days worth of games ... and definitely not over Thanksgiving.

     

  17. 44 minutes ago, US31 said:

    I'm just sharing my opinion....some people will disagree.  I would suggest 8 man matchups probably aren't the best analogy to 11 man 1A football.

    The reason I have my opinion is a desire to prevent the yo-yo effect that has occurred in larger classes from affecting 32 smallest 1A.  Especially as IHSAA has chosen to increase the point threshold for "staying up".

    Looks like some p/p folks don't agree with me....they are free to do so and I'd still drink beer with them.🍻

    I've heard this before, but I'm trying to wrap my head around where this has happened that didn't have something wonky attached to it, perhaps outside of Cathedral.  And even in the case of Cathedral, I don't think they've ever returned to their enrollment class, 4A

    Chatard's "move down" from 4A was based on a single season when the IHSAA implementing a COVID review and sticking them in a sectional with Roncalli.  LCC moved down because the points to stay up was four points at the time.  I'm trying to think through who else has yo-yo'd, perhaps outside of Pioneer ... but that's a public school and they've been 2-8 and 5-5 since moving back down and haven't made it past a first-round game.  Even folks like Linton and Scecina that went up on SF were large enough after the fact, moving from 1A to 2A, to remain in 2A regardless of SF.  Adams Central will end up being the third such school. 

    Matter of fact, in 1A so far, there have been seven total instances of teams being SF'd up to 2A, with LCC being the only one to yo-yo ... again because of the four-point rule:

    • LCC - The first and has been SF'd twice and a member of the inaugural class.  Moved down once because the cutoff was four points as mentioned above.  Moved back up as one of the first team's to be SF'd by doing worse in their second year of the cycle than the first in 2021.  Picked up three points in the current 2A stay.  Will be remaining in 2A for the next cycle.
    • Scecina - Moved up as a result of picking up 6 points in the inaugural SF class in 2013. Up until this last season, the only team to be SF'd without a blue ring.  Adams Central just joined that distinguished club.  Scecina has never moved back down as a result now of enrollment.
    • Linton was SF'd in the 3rd SF class since no one in 1A picked up enough points in the second SF cycle to be bumped in 2017 season.  Like Scecina, has never moved back down as a result now of enrollment.
    • Pioneer finally SF'd in 2019 after three straight appearances at LOS netting two blue rings and a red.  Remained in 2A for 1 1/2 seasons before COVID half-season sent them back down to 1A.  As noted above, haven't escaped a first round 1A game with a win since.
    • Adams Central just joined the Scecina/Pioneer having three straight LOS appearances combined with no blue rings.  Will likely not end up coming down as they are likely to join the other distinct club: the Linton/Scecina club where they get SF'd and get too big to come down regardless of SF.
    • Lutheran just joined the Pioneer club along with the WeBo club in that they had three straight LOS appearances and also picked up three straight blue rings.  Will see need to wait to see if they don't weather 2A, but last year they likely could have easily gotten to 2A semi-state.

    As such, since the end of the 2012 season, six programs in 1A have been SF'd with the very unique situations of two-thirds of the programs being bumped in just a pair of SF cycles.  Of interest is the mix is three p/p and three public.  Only two 1A teams out of six have returned, LCC and Pioneer, and, in the case of LCC, it was because the requirement was four points to stay.  Technically, LCC is the only one to really yo-yo and, again, due to the four-point rule.  With the data points, I'm not seeing 1A at much risk; especially if the argument is that the p/ps have enormous benefits, as SF will address it and, the potential discrepancies at the lower levels are much more likely to NOT have p/p programs returning back down from a 2A environment.

     

    • Like 1
  18. 54 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

    6A seems pretty straightforward, assuming the IHSAA sticks with their usual method of slotting new teams into where old teams were:

    1: Crown Point, Lake Central, Portage, Harrison (slots in for Jeff)

    2: Penn, Elkhart, Carroll, Snider (slots in for Warsaw) 

    3: Northrop, Homestead, Fishers, HSE

    4: Carmel, Westfield, Zionsville, Noblesville 

    5: BD, Brownsburg, Pike, Avon

    6: Cathedral, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, North Central

    7: Warren, Perry Meridian, Southport, Tech

    8: CG, Columbus North, Jeffersonville, Franklin Central 

    Speaking of slotting in for Jeff, with Jeff slotting in for Harrison in Sectional 13 in 5A ... Jeff may find post season tough with the likes of Decatur Central and Plainfield in that sectional.

  19. 2 hours ago, Bobref said:

    They’d have to use something else or, for example, 3 of Center Grove’s regular season games in the 2024 season would not count toward seeding, since they are out of state opponents. It would hardly be consistent for the IHSAA to open up their travel policy somewhat, as they did a couple of years ago, and then adopt a seeding formula that penalizes teams for playing out of state opponents.

    IHSAA:

    image.gif.b0c735ec67d02c3223fa4eee1d91582d.gif

     

    • Haha 1
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