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Everything posted by slice60

  1. slice60

    Ref formation for PAT kick

    Another question from the FC-HSE game. What is the proper formation for the crew to line up for a PAT kick? On FC's final PAT, the holder fumbled the snap, picked it up & ran left. He was tackled around the goal line near the left pylon. However, there was no ref in that area & the Head Ref chasing behind the play took his best guess & ruled it No Good. Head Ref was behind the kicker, 2 refs under the goalposts, 1 ref on the LOS by the right pylon...I guess the 5th guy was lined up in the middle by the LB's. Shouldn't he be on the left side on the LOS?
  2. slice60

    2 Kickoff questions

    Witnessed 4 straight kickoffs in the Franklin Central-Hamilton SE game. Not fun. HSE had returned one for a TD earlier so FC was determined not to kick deep again. Kick #1 - Squib toward HSE player near 25 who had signaled fair catch immediately when the ball headed his way. After 2 low bounces, it took a high hop. He caught it & started running. Head Ref blew play dead & threw a flag. They all got together & decided to re-kick due to inadvertent whistle. My guess is that the Head Ref didn't see the bounces & thought he caught it on the fly. My question is: If the ball bounces, does that wipe out the fair catch signal meaning that the HSE player should have been allowed to return the kick with no flag? Kick #2 - FC kickoff went out of bounds. HSE chose to accept the 5-yard penalty & force FC to re-kick from the 35. Kick #3 - Apparently, an FC player crossed the 35 before the ball was kicked. Side judge threw flag & blew the play dead. 5-yard penalty enforced. My question is: Why was the play blown dead? I thought that the play would continue & then the receiving team could choose to accept the 5-yard penalty added on to the return or force another re-kick. Kick #4 - Successful squib kick & return. "Bronks Cheer" from the crowd. In general, this crew had a rough night with a number of screw-ups. I knew they weren't top-notch early on when HSE missed a 32-yard FG. Instead of placing the ball at the 20, they gave the ball to FC at the 15, which was the previous line of scrimmage. I won't go into the crazy details but I believe that the HSE coaching staff received 3 Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties in the final minute after throwing a game-clinching interception. At least 2 members of thecrew carried 2 yellow flags & they seemed to enjoy tossing them emphatically.
  3. slice60

    Ref formation for PAT kick

    Thanks for all of the good answers. Good to know they were in proper positions. Somehow, I never paid attention to where that 5th ref went on PAT kicks.
  4. slice60

    2 Kickoff questions

    Kick #1 was a ground-ball squib that took a wild hop. Don't know for sure but my guess is fair catch signal came after the ball hit the ground. Or maybe the Head Ref thought he saw a signal that the others did not. Either way, the crew chose to re-kick from the same spot-- which was not mentioned by you. As I figured, the crew chose a "do-over" which neither Coach agreed with. Kick #3 - I didn't know that encroachment by the kickoff team was a dead-ball foul in high school. Ref in the middle of the middle used his 2 flags twice. First time was offsetting Unsportsmanlike Conducts. Second time was a Personal Foul away from the ball when HSE stuffed a 4th down run. Not sure why he threw 2 flags for 1 defensive penalty. But it also extended a drive which ended with FC's go-ahead TD. Thanks for the insights!
  5. slice60

    Kickoff Question

    Deleted -- posted in wrong place.
  6. In a different thread, I voiced my opinion that 0-9 teams should be included in the tournament as there is no reason to remove them from the state-wide tournament. On the other hand, if a program cannot field a team & forfeits at any point during the regular season, then the season should end at that moment. Plus, the school must apply to the IHSAA if they want to play football in future years.
  7. slice60

    Seeded sectionals

    0-9 teams have won sectional games before. If you can field a team, you deserve to be included in the state-wide tournament.
  8. slice60

    Region Pick'em (BIG 10) Week 6

    Valparaiso Michigan City LaPorte Portage Hammond High North Judson Whiting Lowell Hobart Andrean SPECIAL BONUS GAME (Worth 2 points) Griffith EXTRA SPECIAL SECRET GAME (You can either abstain from this pick or wager ONE point, the catch is if you lose the game a point will be taken AWAY from this week's tally.) Rensselaer Central
  9. slice60

    Region Pick'em (BIG 10) Week 5

    Valparaiso LaPorte Michigan City Crown Point Munster Lowell Boone Grove South Central Hammond Clark Griffith SPECIAL BONUS GAME (Worth 2 points) Andrean
  10. slice60

    Region Pick Them (BIG 10) Week 3

    Portage Merrillville Valpo MC Lowell Gavit SBW Rensselaer NP ECC Culver Academy
  11. slice60

    New Turf In 2018

    Cool drone photo from 8/24/18 home opener vs Roncalli. Flashes pulled off the 14-7 upset in front of a huge crowd.
  12. Coach Gandolph suspended himself from the Semistate game & watched from the bleachers. Good move on his part. Another good column here. http://www.newsandtribune.com/indiana/sports/area-coaches-weigh-in-on-pitch-count-controversy/article_7ebdb3e9-acc7-5fc2-a67c-122824362101.html
  13. Thank you for posting that article, Crusaderfan. Just like providing affordable healthcare for all Americans, who would have ever imagined that a Pitch Count Rule could be so complicated? While I understand that the coaches association may want to police themselves, the IHSAA would open themselves up for even more controversy if they don't a) amend the Pitch Count Rule to differentiate the penalty for a regular season violation & the penalty for a tournament violation and b) proper in-game oversight/enforcement in tournament play. Obviously, the IHSAA enforces the rules as they see fit. In this case, they need to do a better job of writing the rules in the first place.
  14. Scecina 2 Southridge 7. Justice is served. Can anybody copy-paste Todd Golden's June 9 TribStar column to this forum for me? I have used up my access so it won't let me read any more TribStar articles.
  15. slice60

    PAC Conference 2018

    "Fell apart" is an understatement. Not sure I have ever witnessed such a complete meltdown as their coach lost his mind with the home plate ump. Maybe if he wasn't so concerned about constantly whining about the umps, he would've known that he would have to go to Molinet due to pitch count & would've told him to go warmup during the bottom of the 6th.
  16. I posted a summary/IHSAA News Release of the Pitch Count Rule -- see above (Tuesday June 5 at 4:57pm). I also looked up the original Rule 51-4 in the By-laws. There is no reference to either regular season or tournament in 51-4. It simply says that violating the Pitch Count Rule results in forfeiture of that game. However, Commissioner Bobby Cox & the IHSAA are standing firm with their decision that the tournament rule (3-9.4 - ineligible player) take precedent over the Pitch Count Rule (51-4 - ineligible pitcher). http://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/about ihsaa/2017-18 By-Laws.pdf This whole mess would have been avoided if the IHSAA had done a better job crafting the rule. The IHSAA Pitch Count Rule-- as it currently stands-- lacks proper in-game oversight, does not differentiate between regular season violations versus tournament violations, & leaves the door open for unethical or mathematically-impaired coaches to violate the rule but still win & advance in the tournament. Requiring each team to keep track of their own Pitch Counts & police themselves is akin to relying upon each basketball team to keep track of their own fouls (instead of an Official Scorekeeper) & then remove the player after committing 5 fouls. According to one of the news articles, the South Vermillion Asst Coach went to the press box during the game to check on Ayers' Pitch Count but was told that "it's up to the dugouts". That's correct, according to 51-4 as written. However, there is no in-game recourse outlined in 51-4. Therefore, South Vermillion had no place to turn except to appeal to the IHSAA after the game. Let's hope that the IHSAA gets smart & amends their By-Laws to include a mandate that each tourney site must provide an Official Scorekeeper to track Pitch Counts for every tournament game at that site, report Pitch Counts by every pitcher/every team to each team participating at that site & then send a summary Pitch Count form to the IHSAA at the end of that Sectional, Regional, etc.
  17. Excellent column from Fort Wayne News Sentinel. http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports/2018/06/07/reggie-hayes-ihsaa-ruling-in-scecina-vs-south-vermillion-pitch-count-violation-may-be-right-but-it-feels-wrong/ Indianapolis Scecina High School’s baseball team violated the pitch count rule in its Class 2A regional championship win over South Vermillion, allowing pitcher Mac Ayers to exceed the 120-pitch limit in a calendar day. Scecina self-reported its violation, which was also noted by South Vermillion. What happened next is an example of how unsatisfying Indiana High School Athletic Association rule enforcement can be. I can see how the IHSAA’s ruling is technically right, but it sure feels wrong. In the regular season, the penalty for violating the pitch count rule is clear: Ayers would have become ineligible and Scecina would have forfeited the game. It’s written in IHSAA Bylaw 51-4: “The use of a pitcher not eligible to pitch by the pitch count restrictions shall constitute the use of an ineligible player and result in a contest forfeiture.” South Vermillion coach Tim Terry and his team felt Scecina should have been required to forfeit its 7-6 regional win. Instead, IHSAA commissioner Bobby Cox ruled Ayers ineligible for this Saturday’s semi-state, but Scecina will play on. The reason: IHSAA Bylaw 3-9.4 specifies penalties for schools using ineligible players in the postseason. It states in football, basketball, baseball, soccer, softball and volleyball during tourneys, “disqualify ineligible individual – but team advances.” South Vermillion, which played by the rules, stays home. Ayers, who did what his coach told him to do, is ineligible to pitch in the semi-state. Scecina coach Dave Gandolph, who attributed the violation to a “clerical error” in an Indianapolis Star interview, prepares his team for the semi-state. Ayers threw 17 pitches in relief in the regional semifinal game, then threw 119 pitches before being removed from the championship game. Gandolph told the Star he thought the 119 pitches included the earlier game and there was “no intent to cheat or anything like that.” Ayers left the game in the sixth with the score tied. I talked with Cox on Wednesday afternoon, and he explained the IHSAA’s ruling. “Our charge is to enforce (the rules),” Cox said. “Two schools self-reported. You look at the rule book. It’s pretty simple. It happened in the tournament, you disqualify the individual and the team moves on. That’s exactly what we did.” The tournament rules take precedent, Cox said. My initial thought is the tournament rules need to be modified. If the regular-season penalty for pitch count violation – intentional or unintentional – is a forfeit, the postseason penalty ought to follow suit. Cox said any member school can propose a future change to that rule, and call for any team using an ineligible player in a postseason game to forfeit. It’s already a rule for the state championship game, and Cox points out he dealt with it directly when he was the athletic director at Carmel High School and the swim team forfeited a state title due to an ineligible swimmer. For other levels of the tournament, however, there could be unintended complications, he said. “I’ve cautioned some folks who think that would be a good proposal,” Cox said. “If you look at the minutes of our meetings each month, you’ll find a list of violations and they range from transfer eligibility to academic eligibility to a kid wrestling at the wrong weight class, two classes above, to a kid left off the entry list who played in a tournament.” Cox said a strict forfeiture rule for ineligibility would dramatically increase the number of schools being forfeited out of the tournament. “Take a football team,” Cox said. “Some of our largest schools have 150 kids on the roster. You throw that kid in at the end of the fourth quarter when you’re winning by 50, he’s academically ineligible and your coach missed it. Now you’re out of the tournament. That’s going to be a problem for that community.” I can understand that. No one wants teams forfeiting tournament games for smaller, inadvertent issues. But rules are rules. If there’s no chance of tournament forfeit in the case of the pitch count violation, what’s to prevent a coach from abusing it in the tournament to advance to the next level? Sure, the pitcher will be ineligible the next week, but won’t some ethically challenged coaches see one player, even a good pitcher, as worth the sacrifice? Let me answer that: Yes, some ethically challenged coaches will see it that way. Cox said it’s on the principal and athletic director to make sure the coach plays fairly. “Maintain the deportment of your department,” Cox said. “If you have a coach violating a rule or causing a kid to violate a rule, you need to deal with it.” The bylaws don’t specify a suspension of the coach for the pitch count violation, even if the move was intentional. “I would tell you I feel strongly Scecina ought to discipline their coach,” Cox said. “The coach caused this kid to be ineligible. …I’ve suggested a suspension of the coach (by the school) but I’ve not heard anything to support that happening. There are other situations where we can suspend coaches for violations but this rule is very clear: You disqualify the individual and the team moves on.” That doesn’t seem fair to Ayers, the pitcher. “I agree 100 percent,” Cox said. “It is truly a shame for that young man. But the association has no other way than to follow the rule. The rule is clear to disqualify the individual. He’s the one that became ineligible, so he’s the one that gets disqualified. I agree it’s a shame. It’s a crying shame because that kid was probably going to pitch in the semi-state, but not now.” Cox said he will suggest adding a line to Bylaw 51-4 on pitch counts to state that postseason violations will follow Bylaw 3-9.4 on ineligible players. If one of the 410 IHSAA member schools wants to propose something else, they are free to do so, Cox emphasized. None of this helps South Vermillion, which played by the rules, saw the other team violate those rules and now sits at home with its season over. Everyone should play by the rules. If not, they should face the consequences. In this case, the consequences are technically right, but they sure feel wrong.
  18. Among Terry's issues is that very few coaches around the state were aware that's how the IHSAA interpreted the pitch count rule as it relates to the postseason. He is concerned that the IHSAA's interpretation of Scecina's violation could invite intentional abuse of the pitch count rule when it matters most — in the postseason. "All of the coaches who have called me up today didn't realize that. Shoot, why not leave the guy in there then? You're not going to forfeit that game, you lose him for the next game. That's ignorant on their part. They should have fixed [by-law 2-9.4] before the pitch count rule," Terry said. *** Unless the IHSAA & baseball coaches work together to fix this rule in the offseason, the IHSAA could be in for a huge mess. Here's a perfect hypothetical situation in which coaches can abuse the system. Let's say you are a Head Coach & your team is playing the 2nd semifinal in Sectional or Regional against the best team in the field. A relatively weak team won the 1st semifinal so you're pretty confident that your team can beat them with your #2 & #3 pitchers. Your ace pitcher only pitches & does not play another position-- if you win the semifinal, he's not going to play in the final anyway so you will gladly accept that 1-game suspension from the IHSAA. So if your ace is throwing well & the game goes into extra innings, just keep him in there past 120 pitches, 130...140...150...175 pitches. As long as your ace is still getting people out & his arm hasn't fallen off, keep him in there & get that WIN. It's a WIN-WIN with practically no consequences. Your team advances to the Final, your ace is suspended for 1 game he wasn't going to play in anyway & the IHSAA gives you & the school a "stern warning". Ok, I'm done with that hypothetical, but very plausible, situation. So here's a real solution during the tournament-- mandate that every host school must provide an Official Scorekeeper who is responsible for keeping the official Pitch Counts for every team in every game & then will provide that data to every team in that Sectional/Regional/Semistate/State Final. If a pitcher breaks that rule by going over 120 pitches in a single game/single day or by not resting for the mandated number of days between pitching appearances, then the Official Scorekeeper will immediately stop the game to inform the Head Umpire of the infraction and the Umpire will immediately stop that player from pitching.
  19. http://www.batesvilleheraldtribune.com/indiana/sports/ihsaa-rules-scecina-will-not-forfeit-regional-game-to-south/article_7445b799-5e94-59d1-a1c5-b01007661b8b.html When South Vermillion baseball coach and athletic director Tim Terry became aware of a pitch count violation regarding Class 2A Park Tudor Regional championship game opponent Indianapolis Scecina — a violation Scecina ultimately self-reported regarding pitcher Mac Ayers — Terry was depending on the letter of the Indiana High School Athletic Association by-law to mete out the justice it states. IHSAA by-law 51-4-e says: "Ineligible Pitchers. A pitcher whose Pitch Count reaches Pitch Count Level 2, 3, 4 or 5, or whose Two (2) day Pitch Count exceeds Sixty (60) Pitches, is ineligible to pitch until the pitcher completes the mandated rest period, and if a pitcher pitches in a Contest in violation of this rule, the School must forfeit the Contest in which the pitcher pitches and report the violation in writing to the IHSAA." However, when the IHSAA was made aware of the by-law violation on Monday, it cited a different by-law in response. One that has kept Scecina in the Class 2A Jasper Semistate at the expense of South Vermillion, who thought they might be in the semistate in the Crusaders place. IHSAA commissioner Bobby Cox told the Tribune-Star on Tuesday that the IHSAA applied by-law 3-9.4 when it came to adjudicating the case. IHSAA by-law 3-9.4 says, regarding governance of baseball in the postseason: "In Football, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Softball and Volleyball During Tourneys ... (1.) disqualify ineligible individual – but team advances ..." The IHSAA followed that by-law and ruled that Ayers will be ineligible in Saturday's Jasper Semistate game against Southridge. The IHSAA also released a statement on the matter Tuesday morning. Wildcats still alive? Waiting to see "Indianapolis Scecina did self-report the pitch count violation to us. The commissioner has suspended the pitcher for Saturday’s semi-state game and issued a stern warning to the school and the Scecina coach for this rules violation," the statement said. Cox said there was no question of a violation as it was reported by both Scecina and South Vermillion. Cox told the Tribune-Star that the organization did everything by the letter of its own by-laws in handling the pitch count violation and that tournament rules supersede those elsewhere in the IHSAA by-laws. "Rule 3.94 speaks to how you handle disqualifications and suspensions during the regular season and during the tournament series. This happened during the tournament series. When that young man from Scecina threw one pitch after his limit he became ineligible. Our rule is very clear that the individual is disqualified and the team advances," Cox said. "I'm enforcing the rule by the letter," Cox later said with emphasis. Terry, who went so far as to hold a baseball practice for the Wildcats on Tuesday morning had South Vermillion received the forfeiture ruling it interpreted was appropriate, disagreed strongly with the IHSAA's decision. "[By-law 2-9.4] was in there before the pitch count rule became [a rule]. It contradicts everything about the pitch count rule. The pitch count rule says that the game you mess up is the game you're ineligible for. That's the game you should be forfeiting, not the next game. It opens up a can of worms," Terry said. The controversy came about as a result of Scecina's two regional games on Saturday. In its semifinal game against Union County, a 2-0 victory for Scecina, Ayers was used in relief and threw 17 pitches, according to Terry, who received the pitch count confirmation from Union County's athletic director. Ayers started against South Vermillion in the regional championship game and threw 117 pitches against the Wildcats. Ayers was removed in the sixth inning and didn't factor in the decision as the Crusaders rallied in the seventh and defeated South Vermillion 7-6 in the championship game. Regardless of the outcome of the game, the pitch count rules state that no pitcher can throw 120 pitches or more in a calendar day. South Vermillion informed the IHSAA of the violation on Monday. Cox said South Vermillion read by-law 51-4 correctly, but didn't take 2-9.4 into account when they interpreted the possible consequences. "They read rule 51-4 and when we implemented rule 51-4, we had to have a penalty for what when this happened in the regular season and that's why we put that in there, but that rule is not superseded by a tournament rule, because that's what we do, we run tournaments. So in the tournament series, you disqualify the individual, but advance the team. Our tournament rules take precedent over all other rules," Cox said. Cox was asked why there would be one rule for the regular season and another for the postseason. "It's been in that situation forever. The only time we'd make a team forfeit in this situation is at the state tournament level," Cox said. Among Terry's issues is that very few coaches around the state were aware that's how the IHSAA interpreted the pitch count rule as it relates to the postseason. He is concerned that the IHSAA's interpretation of Scecina's violation could invite intentional abuse of the pitch count rule when it matters most — in the postseason. "All of the coaches who have called me up today didn't realize that. Shoot, why not leave the guy in there then? You're not going to forfeit that game, you lose him for the next game. That's ignorant on their part. They should have fixed [by-law 2-9.4] before the pitch count rule," Terry said. When Terry was told of the IHSAA's response to why the rule is interpreted one way in the regular season and another in the postseason? He was blunt with his response. "That's a stupid answer. When they made [the pitch count] rule, they should have changed [by-law 2-9.4]," Terry said. Terry sent a written statement to the Tribune-Star and indicated that the pitch count rule — which the IHSAA adopted in 2016 based on the National Federation of State High School guidelines and which became enforceable in 2017 — is compromised by the IHSAA's decision. "A lot of thought and feedback went into the pitch count rule and it was done very well. The best way to enforce the rule was to forfeit the game, for the violation," Terry wrote. "The whole reason for our pitch count rule was to save the arms, the most important time may be at the end of the season." Another issue is whether the violation is indeed a player violation, as the IHSAA interpreted it, or a team one? If the team is responsible for keeping track of the pitch count, isn't it their violation and not the player involved? And if so? Would that then remove by-law 2-9.4 from the jurisprudence? "The pitch count rules are put in for the protection of the pitchers. I can think of a lot of coaches that would bring their pitchers back in to win the final game of the sectional, and abuse the pitch count rule. In turn, they would win the sectional, the pitcher would be penalized for the next game, then he could pitch in the championship game of the regional. So the team that breaks the rules will go on to win and the team that followed the rules, will be out of the tournament," Terry also wrote in his statement. Cox was sympathetic, but stood by the IHSAA's ruling. "In a perfect world, everyone would abide by the rules and there wouldn't be any slip-ups and we'd just play our tournaments. It happens. It isn't the first time a rule violation has occurred and it won't be the last. It's our job to enforce the rules the membership agrees on. South Vermillion and Scecina and every one of the other 408 schools," Cox said. "I'm sad for the kid [Ayers] who won't get to play at semistate and it's sad for South Vermillion because if it were a regular season event? They would receive the win, but in the postseason? The team moves on," he added. There is no immediate recourse for South Vermillion within IHSAA guidelines to appeal the ruling. Cox suggested a different course of action. "As I indicated to the [South Vermillion Community School Corporation] superintendent [Dave Chapman] and athletic director [Terry], if they don't like this rule? They can propose a rules change. South Vermillion can propose a rule that if the pitch count is violated in the tournament? It's a forfeiture by the offending team," Cox said. That's a small comfort to the Wildcats, who were chasing would what have been just their second regional baseball championship in school history. As it is? The Wildcats end their 27-4 season on a bitterly disappointing note. It wasn't easy for Terry to break the news to his players this morning. "They're upset. This is a good group. You don't have a group like this very often. They're a good group and they do things right. It's kind of tough because we were wanting to go in. To think you're not going on because they threw an ineligible guy against you? It's even worse," Terry said.
  20. Nah, I am just a high school sports fan with no allegiance to any of the teams involved in this mess. I hope that the IHSAA gets smart & mandates that there must be an Official Scorekeeper at each tourney site to track & report Pitch Counts. It shouldn't be solely up to each team to police themselves. And the other teams in each tourney shouldn't have to track opponents' Pitch Counts, especially for games in which they aren't even playing. This is just another example of the IHSAA treating BASEBALL like a red-headed stepchild.
  21. I looked over a few of Scecina's box scores at maxpreps.com. Seems a little fishy that past games, including both Sectional games, had complete stats (INCLUDING PITCH COUNTS) but that changed for the Regional games. The pitch counts are BLANK for the Regional semifinal vs Union County (Mitchell 6 innings 27 batters faced, Ayers 1 inning 4 batters faced) & then NO PITCHING STATS ARE ENTERED for the Regional final vs South Vermillion (according to the Tribstar recap, Ayers pitched into the 6th when he was replaced by Bagley). Granted, maybe they removed these stats after discovering their mistakes & didn't want to add fuel to the fire.
  22. You're right. The pitcher is absolutely not responsible for counting his own pitches. The IHSAA decision to completely suspend the player for 1 game but only issue a "stern warning" to the Head Coach & school is ridiculous. Like I said earlier, the Coach should be suspended for at least the remainder of the 2018 tourney.
  23. Ok, I guess. But they should have included that tournament language in the Pitch Count rule. Also, Rule 3-9.4 does not state how long the ineligible individual will be disqualified. I would argue that a 1-game suspension is too short in this case. If Scecina wins on Saturday, Mac Ayres will be pitching in the 2A State Final game & Scecina will have gotten away with it.