Footballking16

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps WeBo (who is competing in a class below Lebanon) has a crop of solid athletes going through right now?

This isn’t that hard.

Now go do your homework and get back to me.

WeBo has beaten Lebanon 7 out of the last 10 times they've played....

16 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Lebanon is Frankfort's "Eagleton".  That is a fact.

Lebanon is on 35% free and reduced lunch, WeBo on 30%.

What am I missing?

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

How about this:  Pioneer exempt (since they are the topic of this thread) (they have a disadvantaged population rate of 48 percent by the way), give me a handful of programs that have made significant/deep tournament runs consistently who:

1.  Have a disadvantaged population rate of over 50 percent...

AND

2.  Are in the bottom half of their particular class in terms of enrollment 

So I give you an example of two schools, in the same county, located within a 10 minute drive of one another with identical SES populations and this is what you come up with? Good lord. 

Why does WeBo have a successful football program compared to Lebanon. Start there and instead of resorting to your same dumb argument. 

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Provide that comparison please.  I’ll wait.

Some of you throw out blanket statements, @Muda69links the actual data and you double down on your denial.

What separates neighboring Lebanon and WeBo? It sure as hell isn't enrollment or SES factors.

30 minutes ago, Bobref said:

They played sloppy, undisciplined football against a team that was exactly the opposite of that.

Yep. Better coached, more disciplined team usually wins. 

19 minutes ago, 1st_and_10 said:

I honestly don't understand... You guys only find things that fit your narrative.  My posts were arround the fact that Webo Community wasn't upscale as identified by DT.  That the community is a Middle Class farming community and for the life of me I can't understand how a middle class farming community can be described as upscale.  That was the basis of my posts.

Agreed.

We're at the point where a select few posters think the only way to run a successful program is to live in an affluent area, or have such an enrollment advantage over your competition where SES factors don't matter. 

43 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

And exactly what "narrative" is that?  Go ahead, spit it out.

That rural, non-affluent communities can still field very good football teams. Duh.

-I believe Center Grove and Cathedral are hands down the two best teams with a considerable gap between the rest.

-Ben Davis is too low. Extremely young team last year and got off to a tough start with a bunch of COVID issues. Think they are biggest threat to Center Grove.

-Chatard loses a ton but that has never stopped them before. Would not be shocked to see them beat Roncalli.

-Bullish on Roncalli but Rodenberg has done a great job rebuilding that team and they will have a very good offensive line. Amazing that it takes an influx in talent down on the southside to get Cathedral back on the schedule. 2023 can't come soon enough, they are due for a whoopin. 

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I've got my money on the Tigers. Regional title within the next three years. State representative within the next five? I think it's possible. Westfield doesn't have the north in their back pocket by any means. 

Until Cathedral gets bumped to 6A and Carmel moves back north. 

32 minutes ago, DT said:

Its become abundantly clear to me that maintenance of the status quo is the new mantra of the IHSAA, as well as the vast majority of fans, supporters, coaches, admins, etc.

Change is neither needed, wanted nor desired.

Explain?

What change is needed? High School football in Indiana is as advanced as its ever been. 

Amazing what a good showing in the state tournament during a pandemic year brings out in people. I don't get it. 

33 minutes ago, temptation said:

Different names, same results.

LCC/Ritter will be back, Roncalli is, welcome Lutheran and Covenant Christian.

Lutheran and Covenant aren’t on the same planet as Luers and LCC ten years ago. Those teams 4peated. 

19 minutes ago, DT said:

I dont think that it would be going too far to say that collectively, PPs are in their strongest competitive position ever.

These programs are bigger, deeper, more talented and as well coached as they have ever been.  

Hence my desire to see The Multiplier issue revisited.

 

 

 

Are they though? 

LCC, Ritter, Luers aren't near what they were a decade ago. Roncalli in the last year or two has rebounded and appears headed back to the Roncalli of old, but there was a decade or so stretch where they weren't your typical Roncalli team. 

Think you're naive to not think P/P's were impacted by the pandemic. Not every student at a private school is a Benz drivin, son/daughter of a Fortune 500 CEO. Not by a long shot. 

But to answer your question, no I would not be in favor of a multiplier. I think it's silly. There's some P/P's who have no business playing in their current classification, let alone artificially adding students to their enrollment. 

The success factor works and does what it is intended to do. A simple tweak in the success factor, extending the cycle from 2 years to 4 years solves the problem and naturally solves a lot of the problems you are seeking, without an unneeded multiplier. 

16 minutes ago, DT said:

Its about right sizing enrollments to create a more balanced outcome.

Im a believer that the pandemic has caused considerable harm to many programs around the state, the vast majority of those being public.  We will see this played out on the field this season.  

I understand your premise, think you fail to see the unintended consequences. Moving Dwenger and Roncalli out of 4A just to replace them with Chatard and so on and so on isn't really going to shift the dynamic. 

3 hours ago, DT said:

This is a survey for PP schools only.  Public supporters are welcomed to chime in with their comments along the way.

Premise :

IHSAA proposes to impose an adjustable enrollment multiplier on all private-parochial schools in the association.  This measure will replace the SF

The action is designed to provide better overall competitive balance for high school football in Indiana.

There are 3 adjustable multiplier levels in this model 

Level 1 : 1.5 x enrollment

Level 2 : 1.75 x enrollment

Level 3 : 2.0 x enrollment

The IHSAA will adopt a points system similar to the SF that will determine the Multiplier level for each PP.

For starters, lets assume the following Levels have been assigned for Year 1 of the first 4 year cycle :

Level 1 : Ev Mater Dei, St Joe, Concordia, Ritter, Scecina, Brebeuf, Guerin, Heritage, Noll

Level 2 : Ev Memorial, Roncalli, Andrean, Marian, Luers, Dwenger, LCC

Level 3 : Cathedral, Chatard, Covenant

So essentially instead of P/P's having a chance to win 1A-5A its now 2A-6A?

30 minutes ago, XStar said:

Also, Sheridan is no further from Indianapolis than Western Boone.  Closer I think.  Why does that proximity give Western Boone the "perception" of being affluent but not Sheridan?  Again, inconsistency with how you choose to view things.  You seem to be distorting facts to try to arrive at the conclusion you've predetermined.  

Simple.

It doesn't fit a narrative. 

45 minutes ago, temptation said:

I think the Eron Gordon ruling broke the IHSAA.

Crazy part about the Eron Gordon ruling is that his North Central teammate (Jordan Walker who actually ended up being better) transferred to Cathedral at the exact same time with immediate eligibility. If Eron had any other last name he's probably in the clear. 

21 minutes ago, RedwoodCowTippers said:

ol' Temptation and Footballking16, you two have one heckuva conversation going, and I see both sides

I've got 2 examples of culture v.s social economics:

1) Coach Mo, sometime between leaving Carmel and going back to Bloomington South, ended up at Salem. 2, maybe 3 seasons, never had a winning season in Salem. Why? types of kids and true community and corporation buy-in, perhaps?

2) Coach Brian Moore, who had a reputation for building successful programs at Seeger and Fountain Central, became head coach at Lafayette Jeff, around 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. Went from a 1A school to a 5A(at the time) school, took a program from 1 win the previous season to 8 in his one and only season there. Why? Community and School buy in, along with athletes buying in as well.

I get the conference switch at the time is always pointed at as a factor of this success for Coach Moore on here before, but his foundation and implement of culture worked just the same at a big inner city school just like it did at a small rural community school. Coach Mo didn't have the same luck. 

Maybe I'm missing the mark on the social economics point you guys are trying to get each other to admit to. Maybe I'm spot on. Either way, thats my 2 cents...

I agree with everything you said, and you hit the nail on the head. It's about culture and subsequently getting everyone associated with the program on board. Without that aspect, it doesn't matter how rich or how poor your community is. That is the aspect that Temptation fails to see. There's affluent school corporations that are the best of the best in Indiana and some who aren't competitive. 

Coach O'Shea at North Central is another example btw. 

18 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not going to focus on out of state programs which I know little about.

Lets take Merrillville for example...

Bottom half of 6A in enrollment, over a 60 percent free/reduced lunch rate.

Went ALL IN in 2020 (transfers/culture) and had a great regular season...Best team in decades.

Blown out by Chatard, dominated by Westfield in the semi state.

Show me a program back has a free and reduced rate of over 50% and is in the bottom half of enrollment in 6A that has tasted consistent success recently.

What about schools in the upper half of 6A of enrollment with less than 50% free and reduced lunch? There's plenty.

It works both ways. 

But to answer you question, Lafayette Jeff is the school I'd go with. 

23 minutes ago, temptation said:

Nah, plenty of room for growth.  Same with Westfield, Avon, Brownsburg, Zionsville and New Pal.  It’s simple demographics man.  Suburban sprawl is normal in every major American city.

Tech is landlocked and is not near the top of 6A in terms of enrollment or socioeconomics.  You can get away with one strike, but not both.

Now, if 3-4 players followed him FROM Center Grove TO Tech?  Sure.

How is that schools like Miami Central and Detroit King have nationally recognized football programs? Why can't Tech, given similar SES factors? 

I agree, IPS has butchered its school system and Tech shouldn't have 2200+ kids in it, but there's no reason to think Tech can't have a successful athletic program given the right enviornemnt. There's little to no culture present at a school like Tech. 

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Too lazy.  Do it for me.  I assume you already know.

Just like most of your takes....

15 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not a chance (and I am one of Eric’s biggest fans.)

Why not?

I'm sure if 30 years ago you told somebody that Center Grove would one day be the pinnacle football program in the state of Indiana you would have been laughed at. 

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Why could they only “lay a foundation of success?”

If coaching/culture is everything they should be able to contend for state titles by just dropping in and building their “culture” in any corporation, no?

What’s preventing them from doing so?

You’re getting so close to saying it.  You’ll feel better,  I promise.

Maybe I'm selling Coach Moore, perhaps he could turn Tech into a perennial state title contender. Hell he did it with Center Grove. 

7 minutes ago, temptation said:

If SES plays very little or zero role in a program’s success then why couldn’t Wright, Moore or Dullaghan (simply because there were mentioned above) turn them into state contenders?

Say it, you know you want to.

Say what?

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Honest question:  Could any of the names you mentioned above turn an IPS or Gary school into a state powerhouse today?
 

Why/why not?

Talk about cherry picking? Those are extreme examples. No I don't think Coach Moore would walk into Tech or Gary West and turn them into perennial state title contenders. Don't think anyone has suggested that either. I do have little doubt though that someone like Coach Moore could walk into either of those school corporations, lay a foundation for success, and have either much more successful than they currently are. 

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Once again, I never said “ultimate.”  But it is one hell of a factor and one that you are underestimating/brushing aside.

It's a small piece of the pie, sure. It's not indicative of a successful program though (see Lake Central, Noblesville, Munster, etc)

15 minutes ago, temptation said:

You get it.

You still don’t.

There's nothing to get. You have still yet to offer some kind of evidence or proof that SES is the ultimate deciding factor in what programs are and aren't successful.