FastpacedO

On 12/18/2023 at 9:55 PM, PHJIrish said:

Coach Lewis got him a QB from Indy too.

I kind of seriously thought he would end up at San Diego St. Hearing Coach Lewis took the Head Coaching position and  O'Neil mentioning some interest from the West Coast. Lewis was the one recruiting him to Colorado so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise. San Diego St. signed what was deemed the Mountain West's top rated recruiting class. As for Danny O'Neil what a joy to be able to head to San Diego to play football for college big difference in weather!

12 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Didn't Mr. Football from a couple of years ago go to Purdue with Brohm .....

 

Did he leave?

He did leave Purdue, he went to Louisville with Coach Brohm

7 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

Didn’t know team success had any correlation to this award as they named individuals. Looking more into this guy is 5 star on 247 which is unheard for Indiana. 

M. Graham WR 6'1" 180 lbs - 39 Rec. 566 yds. 6 TD. He was listed as only playing 7 games and did not lead his team in catches, yards, or TD's. There are a few of the other WR's I feel people could be upset about not getting the WR position award and Graham is not one of them. Now if you were to say Tuggle, Coy, or Hall you might have a case.

6 hours ago, Rodney said:

generally speaking if your team gets shutout maybe you weren't the best receiver in the state

Or if you only have 6 TD's on the year.

1 minute ago, Irishman said:

The point to my post really is about who actually is available in each building. With the lack of students in the areas I mentioned, the reality is that non public schools have a number available/able to participate that is more on par with schools that are a class or two above where their enrollment places them in the current system. 

Oh I definitely understood your post and wasn't dismissing it.

21 hours ago, jets said:

Hahahahaha....you wanna talk about "EGO!?!?" How much of an ego do you need to have to just honestly believe "we win because we just WORK HARDER, have a better FEEDER SYSTEM and it is our CULTURE." 

Like no one else has figured out those things. 

That, sir, is an EGO. 

I don't think anyone from P/P is saying "we win because we just work harder". As for feeder system (assuming you mean feeder football league) I have first hand knowledge of this one. There are some excellent feeder Jr. football leagues for public schools, and you can tell because it shows up at the High School level (just some examples CG's Bantam, New Pal, Brownsburg, Whiteland). I have been to several Jr league tournaments and you can usually see which ones are well ran, the ones poorly ran, and the ones starting to make the turn.  More on comparison I've witnessed with CYO later. As for culture this is not just something obtained by P/P, there are plenty of Public schools with football culture it is not just selective to P/P. Some have even really started to breed a culture, using @Titan32 as a example, it has not been unnoticed by me that Coach Hart has really built a football culture at Gibson Southern. Building that culture mixed with a terrific youth football league those schools start to reload instead of rebuild. I would say Gibson Southern has now hit that echelon of reloading from what I have seen (I 100% mean that as a compliment).

I will speak on one thing I have noticed over the years (taking out student population) looking strictly at feeder programs. When it comes to CYO you can check out @Cyoguru posts about CYO football he has always had some great posts. I am going to do just a small comparison of something I have noticed when it comes to advantages of feeder program. Let's take Chatard for an example on P/P. In CYO you will have lets say 7 or 8 elementary schools that have a CYO football team for 3rd/4th, 5th/6th, and 7th/8th (these aren't exact numbers). Now lets look at Danville for an example on Public. They will have a youth league that has say 6-7 teams for 3rd/4th and 5th/6th (these aren't exact numbers) then those filter into 1 Middle School for 7th/8th football where they play schools in their conference. Now when you snap shot that Chatard (while they will lose some from CYO to Cathedral, Brebeuf, and sometimes even the local public) Can be bringing in 7-8 kids that well experienced at QB (just using that position as an example) and go on down the line at positions. Danville however has filtered from multiple in youth league to 2 or 3 at Jr High level so the High School will only get that many. Personally that is where the depth comes from and it tend to keep the roster large coming in as Freshman at Chatard, then some will drop off after Freshman year not to play again but they will try to keep the interest of them all to come back for JV/Varsity. Where as Danville will get a drop off from Middle school to Freshman (just like Chatard does from Freshman to JV/Varsity) and then another drop off from Freshman to JV/Varsity. To me that is definitely one advantage that I have watched. I am not saying it is the only advantage either, and there is no "ego" involved for me.

Some programs have done very well at retaining and even have outstanding youth programs. To me Center Grove's youth program (Bantam and Jr. Trojans) is unparalleled in the state of Indiana. There is a reason their program reloads and is very strong regardless of being in 6A. I think their Jr Trojans are 10 time champions of the Trojan Horse Tournament in Ohio.

6 hours ago, Irishman said:

But do non public schools have special needs students? It isn't only about kids with other interests. It's about the kids who are not able to participate because of various disabilities. There is also the population that is interested in nothing. Our building in particular has over 200 ELL kids, and more than 12% of our students are non diploma track kids. Yet we are in 4A.........implying that just based on numbers, we are identical to Bishop Dwenger. Want to know what the numbers above look like in their building? About 1% and all of their kids are diploma track kids. Others? and the ELL kids that Catholic Charities helped bring here as refugees? Non existent. 

Does Roncalli still have their STARS program for Special Education Services? I know Cathedral offers language support programs, but that is not special needs. I don't think Brebeuf has any special needs. I know both schools do not discriminate against disabilities and have had disabled students, but that is different tan special needs. I definitely respect your knowledge of it because unlike others I know you have taught in both Public and P/P.

2 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Agreed, this will definitely be a problem moving forward. Not to get off topic because I know this was in a separate thread, but any idea on why the IHSAA did this? The only thing I can come up with is to make it easier for public schools to get back down to their enrollment class. I know it sounds bad, but typically public schools don't have too much success that I can remember when they are the ones success factored up. Maybe Webo and Pioneer had a little success that I can remember. Any other schools I'm missing that SF up and had sectional championship and higher success?

New Palestine

27 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I appreciate the thoughtful response.  I agree that the proximity to urban areas is a big factor....but again, more so for the p/p because in my view this is really a 1A to 3A problem.  With regard to publics, the schools just get bigger in the urban areas and once you get over 1000 kids or so the issue with student population type goes away just due to sheer economies of scale. 

In all honesty some schools you see in 5A and 6A have experienced the benefits of urban sprawl to grow them to what they are now. They are not too far from being some of the top contenders for 3A though. Some examples Zionsville, Whiteland, Hamilton Southeastern. They were right there competing  with some of the P/P in metro areas. Their schools have burst into large student populations. Heck HSE once a very good 3A school, grew so big so fast they created Fishers High School and now both are 6A. Many rosters (both P/P and Public) have grown over the years as the schools have. You can go look at State Championship programs on the IHSAA and see the big difference.

Look at the 1992/93 Wesfield (2A at the time 35 on roster) vs 2013/14 (6A and 133 on roster)  or the 1992/93 Cathedral (3A at the time 50 on roster) vs 2013/14 (5A and 123 on roster). That is why I contend location to metropolitan. Plus on some of these teams you can look at the years they made finals and see the legacy names on the rosters

14 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Again...I haven't argued about where they get their kids or really even transfers.  The nature of paying for a service results in a greater percentage of like minded quality student athletes period end of story.  

Many publics have all the things some of you guys like to point out make a program successful.  The difference is when you have such a higher percentage of quality student athletes it magnifies the success of the privates schools who also have those things and do them right.

Are you saying that ever state in the US is wrong....that literally almost every HS association in the county is unfairly looking for solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.  That he only cause to the issue is excellent youth, feeder, admin, Coaching etc. some schools have?  If you are....that is really a simple point of view.

I get that and you are in the minority on this. Most complain about other things without a clue and it spreads like wild fire. I can tell you I have been around my fair share of youth football tournaments where a dad from a public youth football program sees a kid that looks to be a stud and states "He is being recruited by  Insert P/P " only for a few years down the road he isn't even playing High School football or is on the local Public school football team. A majority of them speak nothing but transfers, recruiting, and where they get kids from. The water cooler talk can get pretty comical from an outside perspective. 

No I am saying that every State in the US athletic association gets incessant griping about it (mostly not for the advantages you speak of) that they have no choice but to look for solutions. Most of them come up with off the cuff solutions that do nothing to combat what they are trying to do. But hey they have tried to do something to wane the constant bickering to them. The success factor (although was adjusted from its initial proposal) was a more thought out way of combating it without using a multiplier. Also no I am not saying that only admin, coaching, youth, feeder are the only cause. There are other factor (including location to metropolitan etc. Also sometimes it simply comes down to mistakes made by one team and not the other in a game. To state in better terms there are times a Public team perfectly capable of taking down a P/P team just simply goofed up multiple times in the game. It wasn't that they weren't capable and the score wasn't indicative of the game, they just made mistakes and the other team didn't. They are teenagers after all and turnovers can be very critical in a game.

13 hours ago, US31 said:

It’s shocking a person can type this and still claim there is no difference in the student population between p/p and public schools.

Absolutely not my claim. My claim is there are many factors. Yet in large part regardless of those factors the majority of complaint is the same old transfer, recruit, etc complaint with very little support to their argument. While you think I feel there isn't inherent advantages that is far from the truth because there is. There are inherent advantages not just to P/P but also location to major city's and large populations. More so in some states than others. I would bet you could go through each state and some of the top teams are near large population metropolitan areas. There is more to the inherent advantages than gets discussed in large part. Yet most of the complaints come down to recruiting and transfer.

3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Just correcting your error when you stated Cherry didn’t win a state Championship. 

Additionally, winning a state title has never been a prerequisite to earning Mr. Football. I simply provided you an example of a past winner in which his team never made it out of a sectional. If winning a state title is now an expectation, the award is limited to 6 teams. 

I never claimed you stated anything negative about anyone. Just don’t align with your criteria. 

Just for clarification I never stated Cherry or O'Neil haven't won State Championships because both of them have (Cherry 2022 and O'Neil 2021). I was stating had they made it to the State Championship this year. The reason I state that is because I feel both would have had terrific games in the passing game against Crown Point (similar to the big game Ringer had in State Championship), thus bolstering their argument for Mr. Football. It is not so much "winning" a State Championship as it is getting to a State Championship having a good game and statistics to impress the voters. Some of them tend to forget certain players when they don't get to see them in that final game, and I am not saying that is right or just either. Like it or not that is how it tends to go, I never can predict how the voters think when voting.

There have been 13 of the 30 Mr. Football winners that have not won a State Championship. I too felt Yeast should have won his Senior year, but I don't have a vote in it. I feel like the reason the player won it in 2016 was because he was committed to Clemson, but that has just been my opinion.

Mr. Football winners who did not win a State Title: 1992 Alex Smith RB Franklin County (lost sectional championship to East Central, broke career rushing record), 1995 Earl Haniford QB Martinsville (lost in Regional career passing record), 1996 Isreal Thompson RB Martinsville (lost in Semi-State), 1999 Derrick Ellis RB Arlington (lost in Regional), 2000 Otis Shannon RB Cathedral (lost in Sectional 2nd Round Career and Season rushing record as well as single game), 2002 Clayton Richard QB McCutcheon (lost in Sectional Champioship career passing record), 2008 Morgan Newton QB Carmel (lost in thrilling State Championship game vs CG), 2010 Tre Roberson QB Lawrence Central (lost in State Championship game), 2011 Gunner Kiel QB Columbus East (lost in Semi State), 2014 Markell Jones RB Columbus East (lost in Semi-State single season and career rushing record), 2015 Brandon Peters QB Avon (lost in thrilling Semi-State to CG), 2016 Hunter Johnson QB Brownsburg (lost in Sectional Semi-Final), 2022 Drayk Bowen LB Andrean (lost State Championship game).

11 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

??? Tyler Cherry led CG to a state championship his junior year and had a great game against BD in the semi-state as a senior.  Not many teams put 30+ points on the Giants this year. 
 

Russ Yeast lost the award to a QB that never made it out of a sectional. 

I am not sure why you have a problem with my statement. What Tyler Cherry or Danny O'Neil did in their Jr year is irrelevant for a Senior award. Both of them had terrific games against Ben Davis in Regional and Semi-State however ended up losing. I am not saying anything "bad" about either one. I am stating they would have had a better argument for Mr. Football. Since they did not and Josh Ringer did make it to the State Championship and performed at a high level in the State Championship it will likely go to Ringer.

6 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

Ok let’s see how high he gets drafted I’m just saying karalfitis and bell are better I never he said he was a bad player 

I don't thing how high he gets drafted will mean anything. Some examples Robert Mathis was a 5th Rd 138th pick from Alabama A&M, Tom Brady 6th Round 199th pick.

3 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

This always turns into a ....I have to win this argument kind of discussion.  Any good decent human being who really "cares about the kids" etc. knows there is an advantage in population type that skews enrollment.  Why would someone fight to screw over so many good hard working football kids?  Because it's always been that way?  Why are there so many attempts to fix this issue in every state in the union?  Seems like a lot of effort going into a problem that isn't real.  I would just rather you guys man up and say....we like our advantage, we paid for it therefore we deserve it.  I could live with that.

I have yet to see a game where a population type at a P/P school forced little johnny from a Public school to fumble, throw an interception, miss a tackle, or miss a gap assignment. So again how are they getting "screwed" exactly? 

You want to know why there are so many attempts to fix this issue, it is because of the incessant moaning and groaning, 99% of the time for things that don't exist that there is some sort of cheating.

Chatard (which I have no affiliation with) has received a lot of grief over this for years. The talk about boundaries and feeder schools, they post their roster with what elementary school they went to. Guess what all but maybe a couple went to P/P elementary school in their feeder system. There have been plenty of Public schools right there with the talent to beat them. I bet you can go back and look at the game film or statistics and the big difference is they did not turn the ball over or didn't turn it over as much. The RB Kinnett that was a struggle to stop at 5'7" 165 lbs (in a cast) went to St. Pius X literally 7 minutes from Chatard. The DB Guy that had 3 Int's (6 Int's in the last two State Championship games) went to St. Matthew's 7 minutes from Chatard (about halfway between Cathedral and Chatard). They are good hard working football kids too, yet you have no problem saying they have an advantage. I could go on and on naming players.

I know from first hand experience there are teams that are beat mentally before some of these P/P even get off the bus to play them.

I look back over the impressive job Coach Moore has done at Center Grove since he arrived. What he did was instill his philosophy in every aspect of Center Grove and it started with the Bantham Football. They play disciplined, they make very little mistakes. They hit the weight room hard and he has put a major focus on building speed (having been the track coach too). He has built them into a dynasty. all something any team can do starting in their youth program. and filtering it into everything they do. 

13 minutes ago, JQWL said:

The correct answer should be, transfers for athletic purposes are not allowed in Indiana. Shouldn't matter.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have used the words "Better prepare him for college". Left it kind of open there don't you think.

3 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

A private institution shouldn't receive public funding to do a public task.  If they wish to do so then they should be open to some degree of control from which the $$$ cometh.

You should read up a little more in depth on Indiana Choice Scholarship Program (ala Vouchers) and the criteria for it and for the schools accepting them.

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I would not say a joke but we had the debate that year on this very forum as to whether or not it was a career award and it seems that obviously you think it is.

I had no trouble with Kiser getting it for what it is worth but if it a senior only award, I believe only senior year performances should be considered by voters.

I would say his Senior statistics were pretty good

Passing - 62 of 94 for 1,183 yds. 18 TD's 2 Int

Rushing - 177 Carries 2,109 yds. 44 TD

Defense - 159 Tackles 8.5 TFL 7 Int's 5 Fum Recoveries

Also had some kickoff and punt return yards as well as punted and kicked off a few times.

12 minutes ago, JQWL said:

You know, sometimes I like to do things for entertainment purposes. The other day, I emailed an athletic director at a private school in the state. Basically that my son was getting interest from some small D-1 and NAIA programs and we were interested in transferring him for his senior year to better prepare him for college. Mentioned he is a solid student. Top 10 in his class. Things like that. I feel like the AD probably should have just told me that transfers for athletic reasons aren't allowed in Indiana. However, I was referred to their Enrollment Director to set up a meeting. I didn't take it any further than that.

Id bet you could replaced "I emailed an athletic director at a private school in the state." with "I emailed an athletic director at a public school in the state" and you likely would have got the same thing from the Public school.

I am willing to bet there have been more transfers into Public Schools than P/P Schools and also more transfers out of P/P than Public schools. 

36 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

No dog in this fight. I think members on both sides of this debate make some good points but, I'm curious, do you have/know the percentage of schools in each class that are p/p?

Not sure if I left any out

Andrean (2A)

Brebeuf Jesuit (4A)

Covenant Christian (1A)

Culver Academy (4A)

Ev. Mater Dei (2A)

Ev. Memorial (4A)

F.W. Blackhawk (1A)

F.W. Concordia (3A)

F.W. Bishop Dwenger (4A)

F.W. Bishop Luers (2A)

Greenwood Christian (not listed)

Guerin Catholic (3A)

Hammond Noll (2A)

Heritage Christian (2A)

Cathedral (6A)

Bishop Chatard (3A)

Lutheran (1A)

Cardinal Ritter (2A)

Roncalli (4A)

Scecina Memorial (2A)

Lafayette Central Catholic (2A)

Mishawaka Marian (3A)

Park Tudor (1A)

Providence (1A)

S.B. St. Joseph (4A)

38 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

It's a travesty the state subsidizes any $$ via vouchers.

And why is it a travesty?

On 11/28/2023 at 6:16 PM, Grover said:

Yeah I’m reading that San Diego State has hired Lewis. 

Now that Texas A&M has Hired Mike Elko as their Head Coach from Duke, do you think Tyler Cherry will decommit from Duke? Or do you think he will continue with whatever coaching staff Duke brings in and look to get that Duke degree. I am sure both getting a degree from Duke and Coach Elko and his staff were part of his decision making.

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Not sure what retroactively looking backwards as to what players did after high school has to do with anything.  

My point was. Many get up at arms about Indiana Mr. Football (there is also a Gatorade Player of the Year nominated). Outside of 4 of the players that won Mr. Football since 1992 not many have gone on to the NFL. Therefor winning Indiana Mr. Football doesn't impact if they will or won't go to the highest level. Been plenty of players that didn't catch a sniff as even a position award go on to the NFL and be productive. 

38 minutes ago, Grover said:

Oh come on.  Are you really comparing the stats of a DB vs. a LB?

I wasn't comparing any stats between a DB and LB or between Yeast or Werner. I showed both of their stats backing up my statement "From that class of Mr. Football candidates Russ Yeast for Rams (Center Grove) and Pete Werner for Saints (Cathedral) are the only 2 really doing anything in the NFL"

Didn't expect there would be an issue with that.

5 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

This is before I actually paid attention to Mr. Football, but was Drue Tranquill out of Carroll considered for the award?

No he was not. He would have been 2013 class and here were the Position Award winners (see below). McLaurin was a no brainer that year with his WR, RB, DB and Kick/Punt Returns.

11 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

I’m the same when bell or karaliftis didn’t win, it’s a joke 

Outside of Rex Grossman, Darren Evans, Jaylon Smith, and Terry McLaurin not too many Indiana Mr. Football award winners have made it to the NFL. Jaylon Smith and Terry McLaurin have had the biggest impact in the NFL.

George Karlaftis and David Bell are in the NFL now. Jack Kiser is playing as a 5th year Sr at Notre Dame and we shall see if he will be joining them in the NFL. 

14 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

No outrageat all....young man from EC heck of a year.  But the homer in me goes for Tyler Cherry, CG QB.  One of the nation's top prospects.

https://www.on3.com/db/rankings/player/football/2024/?position=qb

34 TD's, 6 picks and a 133.7 QB rating against a very tough regional schedule.  (Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee schools)

https://www.maxpreps.com/in/greenwood/center-grove-trojans/athletes/tyler-cherry/football/stats/?careerid=lf1091ae7k6p9

Danny O'Neil and Tyler Cherry had great years at QB against tough competition. Had either one of them made it to the State Championship game I think they would have been in the fight for Mr. Football (as would have Sherrell from Brownsburg at RB).

Tough to pick against Josh Ringer since making it to State Championship game and performing well in it. His numbers were definitely very good and that was with 3 other RB's taking 30-70 carries.

Josh Ringer RB East Central:

Passing - 1 Comp / 2 Att / 28 yds / 0 TD / 0 Int

Receiving - 13 Catches / 278 yds / 5 TD

Rushing - 279 Rushes / 2,880 yds. / 55 TD

12 hours ago, Trojanmp52 said:

I lost all respect for the people that pick the award the year Russ Yeast did not get it he was the best player in the state by far. But the winner was some one that never even won anything.

From that class of Mr. Football candidates Russ Yeast for Rams (Center Grove) and Pete Werner for Saints (Cathedral) are the only 2 really doing anything in the NFL. Mac Hippenhammer went to Bengals as an undrafted free agent but I don't think he is with them anymore.

Russ Yeast DB (Rams) 26 Games / 10 Starts / 42 Tackles (35 Solo) / 2 PDef

Pete Werner LB (Saints) 38 Games / 30 Starts / 135 Tackles (121 Solo) / 0.5 Sack / 4 PDef / 1 Int