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POTLUCK

Accountability for Referees

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Other than coaches rating officials for the tournament, is there any other type of accountability for a referees performance?

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I don't believe so.  But at the college and professional levels, I have always had a problem with the coaches and players being required to do post game press conferences and interviews to justify their decisions whereas by the time those press conferences are taking place, the referees are already on a plane ride home.

I know it is a thankless position and most of them are part time employees, but if others participating in the game have to face the music, refs should have to as well.

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5 minutes ago, POTLUCK said:

Other than coaches rating officials for the tournament, is there any other type of accountability for a referees performance?

When I was coaching, I kept pretty detailed notes on officials I had, mainly for voting purposes. If I ran across an official I didn't think was very good, I just didn't hire them at home. Of course you have no control over who you get on the road or in the tournament. I'm not sure there's much else you can do. I have told a couple of lower level coaches over the years to tell their AD to NEVER hire me again. 

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1 minute ago, Temptation said:

I don't believe so.  But at the college and professional levels, I have always had a problem with the coaches and players being required to do post game press conferences and interviews to justify their decisions whereas by the time those press conferences are taking place, the referees are already on a plane ride home.

I know it is a thankless position and most of them are part time employees, but if others participating in the game have to face the music, refs should have to as well.

What do you hope to be gained by that? 

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37 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

What do you hope to be gained by that? 

Referees being held accountable for their mistakes and explaining so that we don't assume bias.

If my favorite head coach has to sit there and justify to the media why he chose to pass on 4th and 1, why shouldn't the referee have to explain specifically what he saw in order to throw a bogus pass interference flag that cost my team 15 yards and set the opposing team up for the winning field goal.

THAT is what I would hope to be gained.

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At the HS level, specifically for FB, there is not much accountability for officials on their performance other than what you mentioned regarding the coaches vote, a small observers program, and self-inflicted/crew chief inflicted accountability, which shouldn't be underestimated. I just broke down our film from last Friday and I literally had at least 20 clips on positioning and crew mechanics. Those are the things that coaches and fans may not be as attuned to, but you have to be in the right position to see the play, and make a ruling. 

Here is the crux of the matter... The overwhelming majority of Friday night officials also have day jobs and officiating is merely a side gig. The money isn't that good and the time away from the family for meetings, clinics, and travel to/from games can add up over the season. There is already a shortage of officials and if you introduce some sort of accountability program at the HS level, say goodbye to having every team in the state play on Friday night. You may see an increase in the quality of officiating, but I'm not sure the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks at the HS level.

Speaking from a Div. 1 men's basketball standpoint. You better believe there is accountability on those officials. Games are taken away, schedules are reduced, and careers are ended based on the quality of work. You may not hear about it publicly, but I can assure you there is accountability at that level.  

Edited by Moshiner1345
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12 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Referees being held accountable for their mistakes and explaining so that we don't assume bias.

If my favorite head coach has to sit there and justify to the media why he chose to pass on 4th and 1, why shouldn't the referee have to explain specifically what he saw in order to throw a bogus pass interference flag that cost my team 15 yards and set the opposing team up for the winning field goal.

THAT is what I would hope to be gained.

How do you know they're not being held accountable? The officials you see on TV are calling/not calling what they're told to call/not call. If they don't, they won't be there long. I believe it was last year two officials were fired by the NFL during the season which is not unprecedented, but it is highly unusual. The Big Ten fired an entire crew in the last couple of years. In my opinion, officials should not be part of the story, it's about the two teams playing the game, but I know that's not always the case. 

So let me ask you this, suppose this SOB who made this bogus call against "your" team and "cost them the game" gets grilled by the media and is held accountable, how does that make you feel better about the loss? How does that change anything? Or is it you just get to feel better because the media will get their pound of flesh? 

 

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18 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Referees being held accountable for their mistakes and explaining so that we don't assume bias.

If my favorite head coach has to sit there and justify to the media why he chose to pass on 4th and 1, why shouldn't the referee have to explain specifically what he saw in order to throw a bogus pass interference flag that cost my team 15 yards and set the opposing team up for the winning field goal.

THAT is what I would hope to be gained.

Sounds like you have already assumed bias exists with referees. It’s tough to prove a negative.

 

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31 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

How do you know they're not being held accountable? The officials you see on TV are calling/not calling what they're told to call/not call. If they don't, they won't be there long. I believe it was last year two officials were fired by the NFL during the season which is not unprecedented, but it is highly unusual. The Big Ten fired an entire crew in the last couple of years. In my opinion, officials should not be part of the story, it's about the two teams playing the game, but I know that's not always the case. 

So let me ask you this, suppose this SOB who made this bogus call against "your" team and "cost them the game" gets grilled by the media and is held accountable, how does that make you feel better about the loss? How does that change anything? Or is it you just get to feel better because the media will get their pound of flesh? 

 

No but coaches get fired based on losing games.  The goal is not to make me “feel better” just to call a spade a spade.  

31 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Sounds like you have already assumed bias exists with referees. It’s tough to prove a negative.

 

I also don’t believe in unicorns.  Look at home/road trends in officiating in general...specifically basketball.

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If you are going to fire/suspend high school officials for incorrect calls you'll see an even larger shortage of officials. We are not D1 or NFL officials for a reason. We will make mistakes. None of them are intentional. I would recommend Potluck attend one of our weekly association meetings or attend a video review session with a crew or tag along with a crew on a Friday night. I bet his/her eyes would be opened wide.

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7 minutes ago, Temptation said:

No but coaches get fired based on losing games.  The goal is not to make me “feel better” just to call a spade a spade.  

I also don’t believe in unicorns.  Look at home/road trends in officiating in general...specifically basketball.

Trust me, Refs get fired and lose games for poor quality / misapplication of a rule. Seen it happen numerous times. It doesn't make the ESPN top 10 list because official's schedules aren't made public in advance like the team's schedules are, therefore fans don't even know who WAS supposed to be on a game. 

In men's Div 1 basketball conference play, officials are assigned by a conference. Home / Away mean nothing, the assignments come from the conference supervisor of officials. Power 5 cross conference games usually use a blended crew where 1 ref is primary in the conference for the home team, the 2nd ref is a primary in the conference for the away team, and the 3rd ref works in both conferences. 

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12 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

Trust me, Refs get fired and lose games for poor quality / misapplication of a rule. Seen it happen numerous times. It doesn't make the ESPN top 10 list because official's schedules aren't made public in advance like the team's schedules are, therefore fans don't even know who WAS supposed to be on a game. 

In men's Div 1 basketball conference play, officials are assigned by a conference. Home / Away mean nothing, the assignments come from the conference supervisor of officials. Power 5 cross conference games usually use a blended crew where 1 ref is primary in the conference for the home team, the 2nd ref is a primary in the conference for the away team, and the 3rd ref works in both conferences. 

Home/away means nothing yet look at free throw discrepancies in the NCAA/NBA...

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The subject of unconscious bias on the part of sports officials is a fair one, and numerous studies have shown that it exists under certain circumstances. It’s part of the home field advantage. Because it’s unconscious, it’s difficult to find a way to overcome it, although this study suggests that it diminishes with the experience of the officials involved.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-referees-decision/referees-influenced-by-fans-crowd-size-study-idUSN0327558320070403

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Bobref said:

The subject of unconscious bias on the part of sports officials is a fair one, and numerous studies have shown that it exists under certain circumstances. It’s part of the home field advantage. Because it’s unconscious, it’s difficult to find a way to overcome it, although this study suggests that it diminishes with the experience of the officials involved.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-referees-decision/referees-influenced-by-fans-crowd-size-study-idUSN0327558320070403

 

 

Is he insinuating a subconscious bias or flat out cheating in favor of the home team based on the physical location of where the game is being held? 

Statistics are great for trending datasets over time. But to truly understand the statistical validity of the data, each play needs needs to be graded as correct call, incorrect call, correct no call, or incorrect no call. Then those results need to have a T-test ran on them comparing the home team and the away team. That would reveal if there is a bias in officiating towards a specific team relative to the location of the game. Too many extraneous factors play into freethrows shot and fouls called. 

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46 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

Is he insinuating a subconscious bias or flat out cheating in favor of the home team based on the physical location of where the game is being held? 

Statistics are great for trending datasets over time. But to truly understand the statistical validity of the data, each play needs needs to be graded as correct call, incorrect call, correct no call, or incorrect no call. Then those results need to have a T-test ran on them comparing the home team and the away team. That would reveal if there is a bias in officiating towards a specific team relative to the location of the game. Too many extraneous factors play into freethrows shot and fouls called. 

He makes the point that the bias is subconscious.

The factors that you talk about become relatively less important as the number of data points increases. These factors end up controlling for one another, i.e., “evening out.”

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Is a thankless job, and with the shortage beggers can’t be choosy.

But I still cuss em

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3 hours ago, Bobref said:

The subject of unconscious bias on the part of sports officials is a fair one, and numerous studies have shown that it exists under certain circumstances. It’s part of the home field advantage. Because it’s unconscious, it’s difficult to find a way to overcome it, although this study suggests that it diminishes with the experience of the officials involved.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-referees-decision/referees-influenced-by-fans-crowd-size-study-idUSN0327558320070403

 

 

I literally lol’d when they made the statement was made about sideline cameras.

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I literally lol’d when they made the statement was made about sideline cameras.

It was actually a soccer study. What did you expect?

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If there is one thing I have learned in my time of following GID and then joining the forum it is this:

it is incredibly shortsighted of me, having never played football, coached football, or officiated football to sit in the stands or stand on the sideline during the game and believe that my opinion or perspective of any particular play is the correct and absolute opinion or perspective. 

As to officiating I would ask how do you expect another human being to make 100’s if not 1000’s of split second decisions during the course of a game and get every one of them right. If we take the low number of 100 and say they miss 5 calls during a game. That is still a 95% success rate. I doubt any of us can claim that success rate on our daily tasks, yet we expect it of semi-volunteer people just like us every week. 

I hope we never put the underpaid individuals, that offer their time and physical strength to make this game as fair as it is, on a podium so we can question every call that we didn’t like. That would be the ultimate insult a real slap in the face.

Players play, Coaches coach, Officials officiate, and Fans cheer. I’m a fan!

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7 hours ago, SenatorFan said:

If there is one thing I have learned in my time of following GID and then joining the forum it is this:

it is incredibly shortsighted of me, having never played football, coached football, or officiated football to sit in the stands or stand on the sideline during the game and believe that my opinion or perspective of any particular play is the correct and absolute opinion or perspective. 

As to officiating I would ask how do you expect another human being to make 100’s if not 1000’s of split second decisions during the course of a game and get every one of them right. If we take the low number of 100 and say they miss 5 calls during a game. That is still a 95% success rate. I doubt any of us can claim that success rate on our daily tasks, yet we expect it of semi-volunteer people just like us every week. 

I hope we never put the underpaid individuals, that offer their time and physical strength to make this game as fair as it is, on a podium so we can question every call that we didn’t like. That would be the ultimate insult a real slap in the face.

Players play, Coaches coach, Officials officiate, and Fans cheer. I’m a fan!

Very well stated. If I could, I would up vote this infinity. 

Thank you for your perspective. 

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9 hours ago, SenatorFan said:

If there is one thing I have learned in my time of following GID and then joining the forum it is this:

it is incredibly shortsighted of me, having never played football, coached football, or officiated football to sit in the stands or stand on the sideline during the game and believe that my opinion or perspective of any particular play is the correct and absolute opinion or perspective. 

As to officiating I would ask how do you expect another human being to make 100’s if not 1000’s of split second decisions during the course of a game and get every one of them right. If we take the low number of 100 and say they miss 5 calls during a game. That is still a 95% success rate. I doubt any of us can claim that success rate on our daily tasks, yet we expect it of semi-volunteer people just like us every week. 

I hope we never put the underpaid individuals, that offer their time and physical strength to make this game as fair as it is, on a podium so we can question every call that we didn’t like. That would be the ultimate insult a real slap in the face.

Players play, Coaches coach, Officials officiate, and Fans cheer. I’m a fan!

Thank you for your support!!! 

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The whole idea of HS officials having to do media to hold themselves accountable is so asinine.   

We are talking HIGH SCHOOL here folks.    HIGH SCHOOL 

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I became a basketball official after making the move back to the classroom from the AD role.  I said my purpose in becoming an official was to help out at the younger levels, 5-6, 7-8, Frosh and JV.  After doing this for 3 seasons, I have great respect for the officials who do varsity sports.  I also have great respect for those doing it for a long time.  Fans are completely disrespectful!  I will gladly listen to a coach and to some extent a player, but when I hear it from fans, I don't go back. 

My goal is to help fill the official shortage, but $50-70 a night is not worth being yelled at or saying I screwed their team.  I am reffing younger kids, I really don't care who wins.  As far as accountability, I know the varsity and JV officials talk and ask each other questions in games and after games to make sure the rules, calls and technique is correct.

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