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Warren Central @ Ben Davis (95th Circle City Showdown)


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4 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Basically WC partially blocked a game tying FG attempt and before the play was blown dead a bunch of WC players ran onto the field and got flagged for it. BD then kicked the tying FG and BD went on to win in 2OT.  

Thanks.

And, I gather, there is some controversy about whether the foul should have been called?

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2 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Thanks.

And, I gather, there is some controversy about whether the foul should have been called?

Right, kinda of a letter of the law vs spirit of the law thing.  I'd probably be mad too if it happened to New Pal.  However,  WC did allow BD to convert a 4th and 19 on that final drive so.....it really should have never come down to the end like that

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1 hour ago, dmizers3 said:

Right, kinda of a letter of the law vs spirit of the law thing.  I'd probably be mad too if it happened to New Pal.  However,  WC did allow BD to convert a 4th and 19 on that final drive so.....it really should have never come down to the end like that

Love to see a video clip, if anyone has one.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

I looked at the video that accompanied the game story at Indy Star and didn’t see it. If you’ve located it, could you post the URL?

Couldn't find a URL link but lookup the MIC Network on Facebook,  they had the game last night.  Go to about the 2 hour 51 minute mark, you can see the play live, then the replay angle from field level on the sideline shows it very clear.   A bunch of Warriors, including coaches were on the field while the ball was still live.

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1 hour ago, dmizers3 said:

Couldn't find a URL link but lookup the MIC Network on Facebook,  they had the game last night.  Go to about the 2 hour 51 minute mark, you can see the play live, then the replay angle from field level on the sideline shows it very clear.   A bunch of Warriors, including coaches were on the field while the ball was still live.

OK, I looked at it. The sideline view is damning. It’s unfortunate, but you have got to have a flag in that situation. That ball was alive in the field of play for a long time, and many players and other personnel came off the bench on that same sideline. But the interesting question is what is the foul that should be called? Potentially, it makes a big difference.

The foul called was illegal participation, a live ball foul, 15 yds. (or, in this case, half the distance to the goal)from the previous spot. There are 2 possible parts of the illegal participation rule that might apply here:

  • Rule 9-6-3 provides “No replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate.”  So, there is a judgment to be made as to whether, in the opinion of the covering official, the people coming off the sideline were involved enough in the play to warrant a flag under 9-6-3.
  • Rule 9-6-4a provides it is illegal participation: “When any player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant enters and participates during a down.”

So, the key to illegal participation as the correct call is whether the people coming off the sideline were involved in the play. That’s a judgment call thatI’m not prepared to second guess without knowing a whole lot more than what’s in that video. But, for the sake of the discussion, if it’s not illegal participation, what is it?

Rule  9-8-1h(i) provides that unsportsmanlike conduct includes “Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player.” And Rule 9-8-2 prohibits any nonplayer from entering the field without the referee’s permission, except for certain specified reasons. 

Why is it important to determine whether the proper call was illegal participation or unsportsmanlike conduct? Because enforcement of the penalty for the two fouls is radically different. As pointed out above, IP is a live ball foul and the enforcement includes replay of the down. Unsportsmanlike conduct, however, is enforced like a dead ball foul. So, it would have been 15 yds. from the succeeding spot and the down counts. So, if it were 4th down, the ball would have gone over to WC, March the distance penalty, set the chains and 1st & 10.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

OK, I looked at it. The sideline view is damning. It’s unfortunate, but you have got to have a flag in that situation. That ball was alive in the field of play for a long time, and many players and other personnel came off the bench on that same sideline. But the interesting question is what is the foul that should be called? Potentially, it makes a big difference.

The foul called was illegal participation, a live ball foul, 15 yds. (or, in this case, half the distance to the goal)from the previous spot. There are 2 possible parts of the illegal participation rule that might apply here:

  • Rule 9-6-3 provides “No replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate.”  So, there is a judgment to be made as to whether, in the opinion of the covering official, the people coming off the sideline were involved enough in the play to warrant a flag under 9-6-3.
  • Rule 9-6-4a provides it is illegal participation: “When any player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant enters and participates during a down.”

So, the key to illegal participation as the correct call is whether the people coming off the sideline were involved in the play. That’s a judgment call thatI’m not prepared to second guess without knowing a whole lot more than what’s in that video. But, for the sake of the discussion, if it’s not illegal participation, what is it?

Rule  9-8-1h(i) provides that unsportsmanlike conduct includes “Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player.” And Rule 9-8-2 prohibits any nonplayer from entering the field without the referee’s permission, except for certain specified reasons. 

Why is it important to determine whether the proper call was illegal participation or unsportsmanlike conduct? Because enforcement of the penalty for the two fouls is radically different. As pointed out above, IP is a live ball foul and the enforcement includes replay of the down. Unsportsmanlike conduct, however, is enforced like a dead ball foul. So, it would have been 15 yds. from the succeeding spot and the down counts. So, if it were 4th down, the ball would have gone over to WC, March the distance penalty, set the chains and 1st & 10.

 

 

I think they got it right.  Tough way to lose but it was a live ball foul.  Heck you had almost half the bench plus several coaches on the field right near the play.

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3 hours ago, Warren Central Warrior said:

Warren Central lost a game it could have won. I watched the game last night and I must say, I am extremely disappointed. I personally blame the Warriors for this.

Um, ok.  Way to own it I guess.

Glad to know you “personally” blame the Warriors...

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21 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

I think they got it right.  Tough way to lose but it was a live ball foul.  Heck you had almost half the bench plus several coaches on the field right near the play.

I happen to know the Referee on that game. That crew is a multiple state championship crew, widely acknowledged to be among the best in the state. You’ll probably see them in the Oil Can on Thanksgiving weekend. Until proven otherwise,  I’m satisfied to go with their judgment.

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1 minute ago, Bobref said:

I happen to know the Referee on that game. That crew is a multiple state championship crew, widely acknowledged to be among the best in the state. You’ll probably see them in the Oil Can on Thanksgiving weekend. Until proven otherwise,  I’m satisfied to go with their judgment.

Hard to ask teenage kids to control their emotions in such a high intensity rivalry game but I get the rule.   Looks like some of the coaches are trying to hold them back while others are joining in on the celebration, lol

Just curious if the crew would have had the stones to throw the flag had the stakes been higher (a tournament game)?

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2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Hard to ask teenage kids to control their emotions in such a high intensity rivalry game but I get the rule.   Looks like some of the coaches are trying to hold them back while others are joining in on the celebration, lol

Just curious if the crew would have had the stones to throw the flag had the stakes been higher (a tournament game)?

This crew? Without a doubt. They are used to working big games. This was nothing out of the ordinary for them.

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2 minutes ago, Bobref said:

This crew? Without a doubt. They are used to working big games. This was nothing out of the ordinary for them.

I will take your word for it as you would know better than I would but could you imagine a teams season ENDING on such a controversial call?

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7 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

There is nothing controversial to the call.   

I guess we will agree to disagree. The fact that this was called should nearly guarantee that the coaching staff goes all out on educating their players to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

There has to be some wiggle room/bias  in officiating however. I don’t care how folks deny it.  There was no way Ben Davis was doing anything with that loose ball.   The game should’ve been over.

Every holding call is not flagged nor should it be in my opinion.   If a guy is breaking free for a touchdown and there is a hold 25 yards behind the play is that flag honestly going to get thrown by most officials?

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11 minutes ago, Temptation said:

  There was no way Ben Davis was doing anything with that loose ball.   The game should’ve been over.

Probably not. But I’m sure the referee saw the players on the field before anyone from either team had touched the blocked ball. I watched Avon win a game about 20 years ago vs Zionsville when they picked up their own blocked FG and ran it in for a TD.

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The coaching box in basketball is more of a suggestion than a mandate.

Hell, sometimes at the college level it seems like the coach is a sixth defender he’s so far out on the floor...

Edited by Guest
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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

I guess we will agree to disagree. The fact that this was called should nearly guarantee that the coaching staff goes all out on educating their players to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

There has to be some wiggle room/bias  in officiating however. I don’t care how folks deny it.  There was no way Ben Davis was doing anything with that loose ball.   The game should’ve been over.

Every holding call is not flagged nor should it be in my opinion.   If a guy is breaking free for a touchdown and there is a hold 25 yards behind the play is that flag honestly going to get thrown by most officials?

Go to the Officiating Forum. There’s a recent post that you might find illuminating on the subject of holding fouls.

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10 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Go to the Officiating Forum. There’s a recent post that you might find illuminating on the subject of holding fouls.

Yep, just read it.  Doesn’t change my mind.

Remember a kickoff return in the 2013 6a state title game in which a hold/block in the back negated a touchdown that would’ve been a key score in a 7-6 slug fest...it was 10-15 yards behind the play.

Officiating crews play by their own sets of rules depending on the circumstances apparently because it was not “near the point of attack” nor did it “directly impact the play.”

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

I guess we will agree to disagree. The fact that this was called should nearly guarantee that the coaching staff goes all out on educating their players to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

There has to be some wiggle room/bias  in officiating however. I don’t care how folks deny it.  There was no way Ben Davis was doing anything with that loose ball.   The game should’ve been over.

Every holding call is not flagged nor should it be in my opinion.   If a guy is breaking free for a touchdown and there is a hold 25 yards behind the play is that flag honestly going to get thrown by most officials?

Coaches should have already educated their players not to go on the field when the play is still going on.  And its irrelevant if Ben Davis was going to pick it up and run it in or not.  Rules are in place for reason. And you said hard to make kids control their emotions,  what's your excuse for the multiple coaches running on the field?  And yes, every week big plays get called back for fouls behind the play.  I guess I'm not sure what you're advocating for, selective rule enforcement?

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1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Yep, just read it.  Doesn’t change my mind.

Remember a kickoff return in the 2013 6a state title game in which a hold/block in the back negated a touchdown that would’ve been a key score in a 7-6 slug fest...it was 10-15 yards behind the play.

Officiating crews play by their own sets of rules depending on the circumstances apparently because it was not “near the point of attack” nor did it “directly impact the play.”

Wasn’t trying to change anyone’s mind. Seemed to me like something you’d be interested in based on previous posts. 

Sure the foul wasn’t at the point of attack, and it was simply a “late” flag? 🤣😂😀

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