Targeting/ Illegal Contact to the Head on Kickoff

[trojan474]

Question:  During the Friday's game, Team 1 went for an onside kick.  The Team 2  player went down to recover the ball and was hit in the head by a Team 1 player.  The Team 1 player lead with the head, it was pretty clear.  Team 1 recovered the ball and a personal foul was called.  The initial call gave Team 1 the ball and marked off the 15 yrds from the recovery of the kick.  There was some major confusion.  Officials huddled, and decided to give Team 2 the ball at the spot of the recovery and did not mark off any yards for the penalty.  They signaled offsetting personal fouls on both teams, even though Team 2 was never signaled for a foul to begin with.  I am still confused on what would have been the correct handling of the call. 

[JustRules]

If the acts are simultaneous or after discussion you determine you had two fouls you could call both with just the one flag. There doesn't absolutely have to be 1 foul per flag but ideally there will be.

I'm going to use K and R since that's the official designation in the rule book. The K foul was definitely a live ball foul and they didn't get the ball with clean hands so there is no way they should end up with a new series. If after discussion they determined R also committed a personal foul it will vary depending on live ball/dead ball. If it's live then the penalties will offset and K will rekick from the 40. If it was dead then the team K foul would be enforced previous spot and replay the down. Then you enforce R's dead ball personal foul and end up back at the 40 anyway. Rekick. The only way R ends up with the ball is if their foul was a dead ball foul and K's recovery was in the neutral zone (between the 40 and 50). By declining the foul K is guilty of first touching and R can take the ball at that spot. Their dead ball personal foul would then be enforced and R would have 1st and 10 from that spot.

The only way R gets the ball at the spot of recovery is if there was first touching in the neutral zone and both fouls were dead ball fouls. You said K targeted before the recovery so that doesn't sound likely. But if the facts the crew had were both dead ball fouls and K recovered in the neutral zone then they got it right.

You have other permutations of this based on timing of the fouls in relation to recovery and live/dead and multiple combinations. That's what can lead to long conversations piecing all those facts together. Once you have the facts you can then enforce as defined in the rules.

[trojan474]

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

If the acts are simultaneous or after discussion you determine you had two fouls you could call both with just the one flag. There doesn't absolutely have to be 1 foul per flag but ideally there will be.

I'm going to use K and R since that's the official designation in the rule book. The K foul was definitely a live ball foul and they didn't get the ball with clean hands so there is no way they should end up with a new series. If after discussion they determined R also committed a personal foul it will vary depending on live ball/dead ball. If it's live then the penalties will offset and K will rekick from the 40. If it was dead then the team K foul would be enforced previous spot and replay the down. Then you enforce R's dead ball personal foul and end up back at the 40 anyway. Rekick. The only way R ends up with the ball is if their foul was a dead ball foul and K's recovery was in the neutral zone (between the 40 and 50). By declining the foul K is guilty of first touching and R can take the ball at that spot. Their dead ball personal foul would then be enforced and R would have 1st and 10 from that spot.

The only way R gets the ball at the spot of recovery is if there was first touching in the neutral zone and both fouls were dead ball fouls. You said K targeted before the recovery so that doesn't sound likely. But if the facts the crew had were both dead ball fouls and K recovered in the neutral zone then they got it right.

You have other permutations of this based on timing of the fouls in relation to recovery and live/dead and multiple combinations. That's what can lead to long conversations piecing all those facts together. Once you have the facts you can then enforce as defined in the rules.

I get what you are saying.  But the ball went the required 10 yards.  The receiving player was attempting to retrieve the ball and nearly had his head taken off.  The kicking team recovered the ball.  If no penalty was called, it definitely was the kicking teams ball.  But the foul was called and and announced as illegal contact to the head/targeting.  They mark off 15 yards from the spot of the foul and give the ball to the kicking team.  The coaches of the receiving team are confused and ask for clarification. I believe because it probably should have been a rekick, in my limited knowledge.  The officials then get together and then signal offsetting penalties for personal fouls and give the receiving team the ball at the spot of the foul.  I think the confusion is where the other personal foul came in because it was never called in the first place. It was called after the fact even after the kicking teams offense was getting ready to take the field again.

[Bobref]

You guys should invest a few $$ in a field mike.

[trojan474]

15 minutes ago, Bobref said:

You guys should invest a few $$ in a field mike.

I wish it happened at my school and then I could have a little better of understanding of what happened but we were visitors and I am just a spectator trying to figure out what happened because the coaches and my son, a player, didn't really get a good explanation.  I think they were just happy to get the ball back.

[Huge Football Fan]

16 minutes ago, Bobref said:

You guys should invest a few $$ in a field mike.

Also another reason to give the clock operators/announcers a radio and you can tell them what you have in an unusual play so they can announce what is going on

[JustRules]

2 hours ago, trojan474 said:

I get what you are saying.  But the ball went the required 10 yards.  The receiving player was attempting to retrieve the ball and nearly had his head taken off.  The kicking team recovered the ball.  If no penalty was called, it definitely was the kicking teams ball.  But the foul was called and and announced as illegal contact to the head/targeting.  They mark off 15 yards from the spot of the foul and give the ball to the kicking team.  The coaches of the receiving team are confused and ask for clarification. I believe because it probably should have been a rekick, in my limited knowledge.  The officials then get together and then signal offsetting penalties for personal fouls and give the receiving team the ball at the spot of the foul.  I think the confusion is where the other personal foul came in because it was never called in the first place. It was called after the fact even after the kicking teams offense was getting ready to take the field again.

A lot happened obviously on the play and several different factors would determine the outcome. Much of what you shared rarely happens on the same play so it's not something the crew deals with on a regular basis. They may have gotten it wrong, but it was probably doing the best they could at the time with what they had. They probably couldn't deal with giving the ball to K because of their original targeting foul and recent rule changes have tried to prevent rekicks. I'm pretty confident there was some kind of action on the play that resulted in the second foul as part of the discussion. My only other thought was if the R signaled the wrong way first and then corrected it so there was only one foul but confusing signals.

[trojan474]

16 hours ago, JustRules said:

A lot happened obviously on the play and several different factors would determine the outcome. Much of what you shared rarely happens on the same play so it's not something the crew deals with on a regular basis. They may have gotten it wrong, but it was probably doing the best they could at the time with what they had. They probably couldn't deal with giving the ball to K because of their original targeting foul and recent rule changes have tried to prevent rekicks. I'm pretty confident there was some kind of action on the play that resulted in the second foul as part of the discussion. My only other thought was if the R signaled the wrong way first and then corrected it so there was only one foul but confusing signals.

I understand as it left me confused as well.  I guess I went about it the long way in describing the whole scenario.. So what would be the correct call on that play be?  Or maybe there is no correct call, being it such a weird play.   I am not trying to bash the officials in anyway.  They did a fine job.  I was just looking for clarification because it was just an odd set of circumstances.   

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, trojan474 said:

I understand as it left me confused as well.  I guess I went about it the long way in describing the whole scenario.. So what would be the correct call on that play be?  Or maybe there is no correct call, being it such a weird play.   I am not trying to bash the officials in anyway.  They did a fine job.  I was just looking for clarification because it was just an odd set of circumstances.   

The correct call would depend on the actual facts of the play. You are providing the facts as you saw them and believe the crew signaled them but that may not be the same facts the crew used to make their decision. Based on the facts as you know them (free kick touched ground and went more than 10 yards before K recovered, K committed a personal foul prior to recovery, R committed a personal foul as well) the right enforcement would depend on the timing of R's foul. You ultimately land at the same spot but for different reasons. If R's personal foul was live you have offsetting penalties and rekick from the K40. If R's personal foul was a dead ball foul, you enforce both starting from the previous spot and replay the down. Go back 15 for K's live ball foul and forward 15 for R's dead ball foul and rekick from the K40.

[trojan474]

I understand what you are saying, but I am trying to get clarity on if the personal foul on the kicking team.  (pretend there is no personal foul on the R team.)  If the kicking team commits the personal foul on the kick (no R team penalty) and recovers the fumble, will the kicking team receive the ball and be marked the penalty at the start of their offensive possesion or would it they be penalized and rekicked? 

 

[JustRules]

52 minutes ago, trojan474 said:

I understand what you are saying, but I am trying to get clarity on if the personal foul on the kicking team.  (pretend there is no personal foul on the R team.)  If the kicking team commits the personal foul on the kick (no R team penalty) and recovers the fumble, will the kicking team receive the ball and be marked the penalty at the start of their offensive possesion or would it they be penalized and rekicked? 

 

No they will not because they fouled before recovery. The basic spot of that foul would be the previous spot if R accepts it (they obviously would). If the kick was touched by K before going 10 yards R could chose to decline the penalty and R would get the ball at the spot of touching. You said it went well more than 10 yards so that doesn't apply in this example. I only used it to demonstrate there are always many factors that go into a situation like this. And the types of things discussed in those huddles. Usually we are trying to agree on the facts and then applying rules to those facts to make sure we get it right.

[trojan474]

Ok.  That's what I thought.  I appreciate the help and clarification.