Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
DT

Center Grove and Carmel Losing gate revenue by staying in The MIC

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Why? Especially given the above-mentioned proposal of a 12 team HCC?

Brownsburg and Avon get screwed playing in a hypothetical HCC South with Southport, Franklin Central, Columbus North, and Center Grove, and not just in football either. Brownsburg and Avon both fit better in the MIC anyway with geographical rivals in Pike and Ben Davis. 

You don't get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

If Carmel and CG make the move to the HCC it will become a 10 team conference you're regular season schedule is locked in. Would mean 5 home games one year and 4 the next. Imagine CG's home games being Noblesville, Westfield, Franklin Central, and Fishers and not being able to play Warren or Ben Davis on top of non-conference opponents such as Cathedral and New Pal who I assure you are bringing more fans than the majority of the HCC opponents.

I'm not really advocating a conference change...just understand DT's point.  I also know AD's have to think beyond football and bball.  Its an interesting discussion when weighing out pros and cons.  The MIC has a strong reputation (well earned) with football and over the years in hoops and track.  Very heavy in those 3 areas.  Typically not as strong in the other sports....and that is why Carmel and CG is typically #1 and #2 each semester in the all sports category.  I believe (opinion only) that the HCC would offer better competition in all sports....and is that good or bad for a Carmel or CG....probably can debate that one both ways.

Football is the revenue generator for the athletic department.....So I understand DT's point about revenue.  I would like to see the MIC travel better....But he's right....it isn't just Pike that travels poorly.  I also believe the HCC would travel better in all sports.

My bias is with the MIC....and I agree with you...love the flexibility of non-conference games and don't want to lose them.  But I can certainly understand why AD's have to look at revenue and cost when aligning with conferences.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I'm not really advocating a conference change...just understand DT's point.  I also know AD's have to think beyond football and bball.  Its an interesting discussion when weighing out pros and cons.  The MIC has a strong reputation (well earned) with football and over the years in hoops and track.  Very heavy in those 3 areas.  Typically not as strong in the other sports....and that is why Carmel and CG is typically #1 and #2 each semester in the all sports category.  I believe (opinion only) that the HCC would offer better competition in all sports....and is that good or bad for a Carmel or CG....probably can debate that one both ways.

Football is the revenue generator for the athletic department.....So I understand DT's point about revenue.  I would like to see the MIC travel better....But he's right....it isn't just Pike that travels poorly.  I also believe the HCC would travel better in all sports.

My bias is with the MIC....and I agree with you...love the flexibility of non-conference games and don't want to lose them.  But I can certainly understand why AD's have to look at revenue and cost when aligning with conferences.

There is no such thing as a perfect world as there will always be arguments for and against basically everything.  Sometimes all we can do is let the cards fall where they may.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I'm not really advocating a conference change...just understand DT's point.  I also know AD's have to think beyond football and bball.  Its an interesting discussion when weighing out pros and cons.  The MIC has a strong reputation (well earned) with football and over the years in hoops and track.  Very heavy in those 3 areas.  Typically not as strong in the other sports....and that is why Carmel and CG is typically #1 and #2 each semester in the all sports category.  I believe (opinion only) that the HCC would offer better competition in all sports....and is that good or bad for a Carmel or CG....probably can debate that one both ways.

Football is the revenue generator for the athletic department.....So I understand DT's point about revenue.  I would like to see the MIC travel better....But he's right....it isn't just Pike that travels poorly.  I also believe the HCC would travel better in all sports.

My bias is with the MIC....and I agree with you...love the flexibility of non-conference games and don't want to lose them.  But I can certainly understand why AD's have to look at revenue and cost when aligning with conferences.

Trust me, I get all that opposed to the blowhard above who doesn't think I do. But football and men's basketball are king in Indiana and that's what is attractive about the MIC. It would make little sense in my opinion to take a conference demotion which is exactly that if CG's moves to the HCC. The HCC is nowhere near the MIC's level in football and even further behind in basketball. It's like saying Alabama should leave the SEC for say the PAC 12 because the PAC 12 overall is stronger in all sports across the board. It would be preposterous.

Edited by Footballking16
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Gipper said:

There is no such thing as a perfect world as there will always be arguments for and against basically everything.  Sometimes all we can do is let the cards fall where they may.

Thats ridiculous.

Conference alignment is a highly strategic and thoroughly evaluated process.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Trust me, I get all that opposed to the blowhard above who doesn't think I do. But football and men's basketball are king in Indiana and that's what is attractive about the MIC. It would make little sense in my opinion to take a conference demotion which is exactly that if CG's moves to the HCC. The HCC is nowhere near the MIC's level in football and even further behind in basketball. It's like saying Alabama should leave the SEC for say the Pac 12 because the PAC 12 overall is stronger in all sports across the board. It would be preposterous.

Look 5 to 10 years out, even 20 to 30 years out.  That is what schools do when evaluating conference alignment.  Its not about today or 5 years ago or 10 years ago.  The HCC is a conference that is filling up quickly with 3000 plus student schools.  Thats already 600 students larger than CG.  I believe that we will start to see some decay in the big township schools over this same period, with enrollments declining and athletic performance slipping.  You will also likely see better coaching emerge in The HCC as coaches see the conference as the better and more competitive long term choice.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

It'll be interesting to see how CG travels to play Cathedral, at Tech, in the regular season finale.  It is a tough drive from and to Center Grove on any Friday night.

We've traveled to Tech before to play you guys.  Didn't we represent well in the past?  

CG makes the drive north quite often as you can imagine...not an easy drive in that direction either.....but, its not that bad.  Construction does make it more challenging.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, DT said:

Look 5 to 10 years out, even 20 to 30 years out.  That is what schools do when evaluating conference alignment.  Its not about today or 5 years ago or 10 years ago.  The HCC is a conference that is filling up quickly with 3000 plus student schools.  Thats already 600 students larger than CG.  I believe that we will start to see some decay in the big township schools over this same period, with enrollments declining and athletic performance slipping.  You will also likely see better coaching emerge in The HCC as coaches see the conference as the better and more competitive long term choice.  

And I've been hearing that for years. These HCC school enrollments have been rapidly increasing for over a decade, not just now, and the needle is hardly being pushed. Yes, Avon and Brownsburg have made some headway, but the MIC continues to dominate both basketball and football. Warren Central and Ben Davis aren't going anywhere unless the split high schools (which they won't). If anything, these donut county schools are going to have to split eventually to accommodate the growing populations and it's going to hurt their athletic prowess more than it helps. There's already talk of a third Fishers high school opening, Westfield could very well split into two high schools 10-15 years down the road, and so on and so on. I think it's more than likely you see Lawrence township consolidate to one high school down the road which from an athletic standpoint probably helps that district and North Central has come out of nowhere under the right guidance to show they can potentially become a major player in the MIC.  

Edited by Footballking16
  • Disdain 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Trust me, I get all that opposed to the blowhard above who doesn't think I do. But football and men's basketball are king in Indiana and that's what is attractive about the MIC. It would make little sense in my opinion to take a conference demotion which is exactly that if CG's moves to the HCC. The HCC is nowhere near the MIC's level in football and even further behind in basketball. It's like saying Alabama should leave the SEC for say the PAC 12 because the PAC 12 overall is stronger in all sports across the board. It would be preposterous.

Yes, but we've seen universities align with conferences without hesitation even if it puts their student athletes to ridiculous travels if it means more cash......

No debate to the quality of play in the MIC for football and basketball.  But demographics are changing and we are seeing quality improve in a number of the HCC schools.  It will be interesting to see where the trend goes over the next 5-10 years.

Quality of play is important and perhaps paramount...but $$'s also matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Gipper said:

There is no such thing as a perfect world as there will always be arguments for and against basically everything.  Sometimes all we can do is let the cards fall where they may.

Well said Gip....I personally don't think any sort of conference change in anywhere on the horizon.  But I can't ever say it would never happen.  As we all know, the world changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a perception that CG needs BD and WC to push them to compete at the highest possible level.  I believe that was the case when Coach Moore arrived in Greenwood.  There was such a huge gap between the mega schools and everyone else that the BD/WC measuring stick applied to any school that wanted to reach the pinnacle of the big school classification.

Times have changed, as has the competitive landscape.  The gap between the megas and the next tier has evaporated.  CG has reached the level of both BD and WC, some might say surpassed them, and no longer needs both as the measuring stick for success .  CG now "is" the measuring stick, to some degree.

The HCC will bring great competition, as good or better overall then The MIC, and significantly higher football gate revenues, as well as much better competition in nearly all other sports.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DT said:

I think there is a perception that CG needs BD and WC to push them to compete at the highest possible level.  I believe that was the case when Coach Moore arrived in Greenwood.  There was such a huge gap between the mega schools and everyone else that the BD/WC measuring stick applied to any school that wanted to reach the pinnacle of the big school classification.

Times have changed, as has the competitive landscape.  The gap between the megas and the next tier has evaporated.  CG has reached the level of both BD and WC, some might say surpassed them, and no longer needs both as the measuring stick for success .  CG now "is" the measuring stick, to some degree.

The HCC will bring great competition, as good or better overall then The MIC, and significantly higher football gate revenues, as well as much better competition in nearly all other sports.  

 

Are perceptions not realities too? Ever think Center Grove is now the "measuring stick" because they compete and beat the remaining top competition by playing in the TOUGHEST conference? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Yes, but we've seen universities align with conferences without hesitation even if it puts their student athletes to ridiculous travels if it means more cash......

No debate to the quality of play in the MIC for football and basketball.  But demographics are changing and we are seeing quality improve in a number of the HCC schools.  It will be interesting to see where the trend goes over the next 5-10 years.

Quality of play is important and perhaps paramount...but $$'s also matter.

I work in finance--$$ sure as hell does matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

And I've been hearing that for years. These HCC school enrollments have been rapidly increasing for over a decade, not just now, and the needle is hardly being pushed. Yes, Avon and Brownsburg have made some headway, but the MIC continues to dominate both basketball and football. Warren Central and Ben Davis aren't going anywhere unless the split high schools (which they won't). If anything, these donut county schools are going to have to split eventually to accommodate the growing populations and it's going to hurt their athletic prowess more than it helps. There's already talk of a third Fishers high school opening, Westfield could very well split into two high schools 10-15 years down the road, and so on and so on. I think it's more than likely you see Lawrence township consolidate to one high school down the road which from an athletic standpoint probably helps that district and North Central has come out of nowhere under the right guidance to show they can potentially become a major player in the MIC.  

Just curious if Avon or Brownsburg wins the state title next month if you will still claim the MIC is dominant?  Or will you simply down play it and claim it was a "down year" in the MIC?

I agree we need to see more but the writing is on the wall.  It's a matter of WHEN and not IF...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Just curious if Avon or Brownsburg wins the state title next month if you will still claim the MIC is dominant?  Or will you simply down play it and claim it was a "down year" in the MIC?

I agree we need to see more but the writing is on the wall.  It's a matter of WHEN and not IF...

If Avon or Brownsburg win the state title this year I will congratulate either one on a great season while still acknowledging the that the HCC has a LONG way to go before catching up to the MIC. Basketball there's an even wider gap. The ACC won the CFB playoff last year but is still light years behind the SEC. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

If Avon or Brownsburg win the state title this year I will congratulate either one on a great season while still acknowledging the that the HCC has a LONG way to go before catching up to the MIC. Basketball there's an even wider gap. The ACC won the CFB playoff last year but is still light years behind the SEC. 

Follow Danny Kannel, he thinks differently.  😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The HCC is definitely light years behind in basketball.  MIC won 4 sectionals in basketball and had the top 5 teams in Sagarin and 7 of the top 10.  Average Sagarin rating was 10.75.  Only North Central was down and they had a team full of sophomores.  The MIC did not lose to teams outside of their conference in the tournament.

 

HCC average rating was 28.25 and they considered last year a great year in basketball.  Zionsville and Avon won sectionals, but I don’t expect either to win this year.  

 

Football this year, HCC average Sagarin is 11.5 in 6A, MIC average 10.375.  I would still argue that even with the HCC having Avon and Brownsburg with their two best teams ever, that the MIC is still better on a down year.  Warren, BD, and CG will all be elite next year with Carmel having a solid season while Avon and Burg take a step back and we’ll just be going in circles again that the HCC is creeping up.  MIC teams are going to widen the gap in 2020, book it.  Again, as I mentioned earlier, I don’t see a shift.  College grads are actually moving back into Indy because they want to be in the city.  The shift you’re expecting to see, I just don’t see it.

 

MIC was 25-5 against the HCC in basketball last year.

 

If you’re only in it for money, move.  If not, the MIC makes sense right now in the two sports that generate the most publicity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

If Avon or Brownsburg win the state title this year I will congratulate either one on a great season while still acknowledging the that the HCC has a LONG way to go before catching up to the MIC. Basketball there's an even wider gap. The ACC won the CFB playoff last year but is still light years behind the SEC. 

A long way huh?  So on field results don't matter?  

Avon beat BD handily. (1-0)

Brownsburg controlled the game against BD and held on.  (2-0)

Fishers crushed North Central.  (3-0)

Zionsville beat Pike.  (4-0)

HSE beat Lawrence Central.  (5-0)

NC beat HSE by ONE.  (5-1)

Carmel crushed Noblesville.  (5-2)

 

I understand still being skeptical but a "LONG way?"  Come on.  Stop living in fantasy land over at Cathedral.

 

And Clemson IS the ACC.  Its a poor analogy.  The results above show its more than just one team in the HCC that has had success over the MIC.

 

Edited by Temptation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Temptation said:

A long way huh?  So on field results don't matter?  

Avon beat BD handily. (1-0)

Brownsburg controlled the game against BD and held on.  (2-0)

Fishers crushed North Central.  (3-0)

Zionsville beat Pike.  (4-0)

HSE beat Lawrence Central.  (5-0)

NC beat HSE by ONE.  (5-1)

Carmel crushed Noblesville.  (5-2)

 

I understand still being skeptical but a "LONG way?"  Come on.  Stop living in fantasy land over at Cathedral....

 

One season does not define a conference LOL. You're extrapolating data from 7 games in a single year that in no way defines that gap between the HCC and the MIC. The two conference's in terms of success really aren't comparable at this juncture. If this pattern keeps up for another 3-5 years, then yes you can make a legitimate argument. Until then....stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

One season does not define a conference LOL. You're extrapolating data from 7 games in a single year that in no way defines that gap between the HCC and the MIC. The two conference's in terms of success really aren't comparable at this juncture. If this pattern keeps up for another 3-5 years, then yes you can make a legitimate argument. Until then....stop.

Just using the most recent data, that's all.  The argument is how far the gap is based on current resumes, no?  Or are you going to change it after the state finals (should an HCC team win) stating that they now need to win 6 in a row to unseat the mighty MIC?

A conference/team is only as good as the current data shows it is.  One year does not make a pattern but you cannot deny that the gap has closed and its not that far fetched to state that its even or even leaning in the other direction.

Once again, we just seem to have differing definitions of the word "dominant."  I use current data while you want to bring the past decade into it.  

Let's talk RIGHT NOW.  The results speak for themselves.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Just using the most recent data, that's all.  The argument is how far the gap is based on current resumes, no?  Or are you going to change it after the state finals (should an HCC team win) stating that they now need to win 6 in a row to unseat the mighty MIC?

A conference/team is only as good as the current data shows it is.  One year does not make a pattern but you cannot deny that the gap has closed and its not that far fetched to state that its even or even leaning in the other direction.

Once again, we just seem to have differing definitions of the word "dominant."  I use current data while you want to bring the past decade into it.  

Let's talk RIGHT NOW.  The results speak for themselves.

 

How else do you define "dominant"?

16/19 titles in football is dominant. It's actually more than dominant.

The last 2 basketball finals have been all-MIC and the MIC has won 6/10 titles including the last 3 and are huge favorites to 4peat. That's dominant.

What is your definition of dominant?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

College grads are actually moving back into Indy because they want to be in the city.  

They’re primarily moving into downtown. I don’t see how that’s going to benefit the townships that still have a suburban feel to them. 
 

At the end of the day they’ll still move out to the ‘burbs when it’s time to raise kids. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

How else do you define "dominant"?

16/19 titles in football is dominant. It's actually more than dominant.

The last 2 basketball finals have been all-MIC and the MIC has won 6/10 titles including the last 3 and are huge favorites to 4peat. That's dominant.

What is your definition of dominant?

 

Based on current resumes, I'd say 5-2 (2 points away from 6-1) is how I begin to define "dominant."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Temptation said:

Based on current resumes, I'd say 5-2 (2 points away from 6-1) is how I begin to define "dominant."

That's recency bias, that is not the definition of dominant by any stretch of means. I don't think you know what the word dominant means. You're picking a select (and small sample at that) to push a narrative that doesn't exist. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That's recency bias, that is not the definition of dominant by any stretch of means. I don't think you know what the word dominant means. You're picking a select (and small sample at that) to push a narrative that doesn't exist. 

How about CURRENTLY dominant?  Does that work for you?

How dare I use data points from the last 7 weeks to fit a "narrative?"

Edited by Temptation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...