End of Danville-Brebeuf game

[Tin Cup]

I’m not affiliated with either school, so no dog in this.  But was anyone at the game that can explain the OT penalty after Danville made a 4th down stop?  Was the penalty for celebrating?  Again, great game by both teams and good luck to Brebeuf moving forward, just wondering what happened?

[Whiting89]

I’m no expert but by the letter of law it appears correct call
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/10/26/ihsaa-football-controversial-call-gives-brebeuf-jesuit-second-chance-vs-danville-indiana-sectionals/75702665007/

[Boiler Boog]

They didn’t announce anything but what appeared to happen was Danville was sacking our QB on the last play. He fumbled (although he was pretty close to being down). Refs didn’t blow the whistle and our lineman picked it up and started to get tackled pretty much right away but during that time a handful of Danville players had run out onto the field. They were probably a good 30 yards from the action but probably 10 yds onto the field. Refs had like a 5 minute conference and threw a flag. I was sitting right by the entrance to the press box and the 3-4 Danville coaches in the box had already left to go down on the field while that was all happening.Gave Brebeuf another shot at 4th down and they punched it in. Right before the second fourth down they made Brebeufa qb come off, I have no idea why but they seemed to say it was something with his equipment, so the last play was with the backup qb. All kinds of weird stuff happened on that last sequence. 

[Bobref]

 

I’ve reviewed the above clip of the play in question. Here’s what I saw:

The Brebeuf QB has the ball, comes under pressure, scrambles around, is hit, and goes down. The ball comes out, and no one blows the whistle, so they obviously felt it was a fumble. The loose ball is recovered by a Brebeuf player who carries it a short distance, and is then tackled. The play started at about the 7 yd. line. The QB went down about the 6. The ball became loose and was recovered about the 9, with the runner going down at the 11, between the Danville hash and the center of the field. All of this action took place between the hash mark on the Danville side of the field and the middle of the field. 

After the QB goes down, and while the ball was loose and during the run after it was recovered, Danville players in uniform left the bench area, and crossed the sideline to celebrate with their on-field teammates, some of whom can be observed running to meet them while the ball was still alive. The entering players got as far as the 15 yd. line. None got further on the field than the 9 yd. marks on the Danville side.

Now let’s look at the relevant rules:

9-6-4 . . . It is illegal participation:

    a. When any player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other attendant enters and participates during a down.”

2-30 … “Participation is any act or action by a player or nonplayer that has an influence on play.”

9-8-1 . . . No coach, substitute, athletic trainer or other team attendant shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but not limited to:”

“i. Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player.”

Both illegal participation and unsportsmanlike conduct are 15 yd. penalties. In this case, the critical difference is in their enforcement. Illegal participation is a live ball foul. If accepted, replay of the down is required. Unsportsmanlike conduct, on the other hand, is always enforced as a dead ball foul, regardless of when it occurs. This means the result of the play stands, and enforcement is from the succeeding spot. 

So, the question here is whether the Danville players coming off the sideline “participated,” or not. Looking at this video clip, it’s very hard to make the case that they did. None of them got farther into the field than the 9 yd. marks. The play was inside the hash at all times, and was actually moving away from the Danville sideline as the players were entering the field to celebrate. None of the Brebeuf players appeared to have been hindered or distracted by the Danville players entering the field.

It’s just my opinion, and it’s based on this single video clip, but I believe the right call here — if you’re going to call anything — is unsportsmanlike conduct on Danville. The play stands. The game is over. The crew chief makes an unsportsmanlike conduct report to the IHSAA.

Having said all that, let me add something else. Not by way of excuse or justification, but to make the explanation more complete. It almost goes without saying that this is an extremely unusual situation. I encountered only one that was even vaguely similar in 40 yrs. on the field and 7 as an observer. The pressure as you’re standing there talking with the crew, trying to get it right, is difficult to describe if you haven’t been there.  Without the luxury of video review, the crew on the field would have a difficult time determining when the Danville bench players entered the field, since their attention was understandably focused elsewhere. If they were unsure, the logical thing to do is give the benefit of the doubt to the offended team, in this case, Brebeuf. I’m not saying that’s what happened. It’s just a thought that occurred to me when I was trying to put myself in this Referee’s place.

[PHJIrish]

18 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

I’m no expert but by the letter of law it appears correct call
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/10/26/ihsaa-football-controversial-call-gives-brebeuf-jesuit-second-chance-vs-danville-indiana-sectionals/75702665007/

By the book it was correct, but no game should have an ending like that for that kind of infraction.  We forget sometimes that these young men are just that, young, and they get excited, especially when it looks like they've won the game and are moving on in the sectional.  If you can't flag it when it happens, then you shouldn't flag it a full 5 minutes after the last play.  Some digression is appropriate, imho.

[Bobref]

7 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

By the book it was correct, but no game should have an ending like that for that kind of infraction.  We forget sometimes that these young men are just that, young, and they get excited, especially when it looks like they've won the game and are moving on in the sectional.  If you can't flag it when it happens, then you shouldn't flag it a full 5 minutes after the last play.  Some digression is appropriate, imho.

I only disagree with two things you said:

1. “By the book it was correct.” Not so sure. See my post above.
2. “If you can't flag it when it happens, then you shouldn't flag it a full 5 minutes after the last play.” As they say these days, “keep the main thing the main thing.” And the main thing is to get the call right. If it takes a serious discussion between the crew members on a play like none of them has ever seen in their careers, then so be it. 

 

[PHJIrish]

6 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I only disagree with two things you said:

1. “By the book it was correct.” Not so sure. See my post above.
2. “If you can't flag it when it happens, then you shouldn't flag it a full 5 minutes after the last play.” As they say these days, “keep the main thing the main thing.” And the main thing is to get the call right. If it takes a serious discussion between the crew members on a play like none of them has ever seen in their careers, then so be it. 

 

I  disagree.  They held many conferences "to get the play right" all through the game.  The game was OVER for the players on the sideline.  And yes I read your response above.  Even if this were a regular season game, it was a shame!

Just now, PHJIrish said:

I  disagree.  They held many conferences "to get the play right" all through the game.  The game was OVER for the players on the sideline.  And yes I read your response above.  Maybe you should reread mine!  Even if this were a regular season game, it was a shame!

 

[Bobref]

15 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

I  disagree.  They held many conferences "to get the play right" all through the game.  The game was OVER for the players on the sideline.  And yes I read your response above.  Even if this were a regular season game, it was a shame!

 

I am reliably informed that the Referee was a last minute substitute on the crew because the regular Referee suffered an injury. I can certainly understand why they were a little rough in their crew communication under those circumstances.

[slice60]

2 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

By the book it was correct, but no game should have an ending like that for that kind of infraction.  We forget sometimes that these young men are just that, young, and they get excited, especially when it looks like they've won the game and are moving on in the sectional.  If you can't flag it when it happens, then you shouldn't flag it a full 5 minutes after the last play.  Some digression is appropriate, imho.

Two words: COMMON SENSE. 

I have a follow-up question for Bobref & any other officiating experts-- WHY WASN'T THIS CALLED A SIMPLE SIDELINE WARNING??? No penalty yardage, game over.

Players celebrating 20+ yards from the action had no impact on the play itself. Officials always need to use COMMON SENSE. This is not the NFL in which every little infraction is scrutinized & every ruling by each official is graded. 

This game was stolen away from Danville. Period.

[Bobref]

18 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Two words: COMMON SENSE. 

I have a follow-up question for Bobref & any other officiating experts-- WHY WASN'T THIS CALLED A SIMPLE SIDELINE WARNING??? No penalty yardage, game over.

Players celebrating 20+ yards from the action had no impact on the play itself. Officials always need to use COMMON SENSE. This is not the NFL in which every little infraction is scrutinized & every ruling by each official is graded. 

This game was stolen away from Danville. Period.

Because it doesn’t fit the criteria for a sideline warning. You can’t just make it up as you go along.

[Impartial_Observer]

34 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Two words: COMMON SENSE. 

I have a follow-up question for Bobref & any other officiating experts-- WHY WASN'T THIS CALLED A SIMPLE SIDELINE WARNING??? No penalty yardage, game over.

Players celebrating 20+ yards from the action had no impact on the play itself. Officials always need to use COMMON SENSE. This is not the NFL in which every little infraction is scrutinized & every ruling by each official is graded. 

This game was stolen away from Danville. Period.

My brother tore his ACL right at the start of his senior season…..life’s full of little disappointments, I’d expect my offspring to handle the situation with some class and dignity, isn’t that part of what we’re trying to teach with education based sports?

The rest of it Bob handled beautifully. As Bob points out, some of the people whining I would LOVE to see them put in this situation. Right, wrong, or indifferent, these guys are in the arena, you’re whining on the internet. 

[Whiting89]

Just like Thursday night football where they didn’t see the face mask, would this be a situation where a seasoned ref “didn’t see anything”?

[slice60]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Because it doesn’t fit the criteria for a sideline warning. You can’t just make it up as you go along.

Ok, fine. not a Sideline Warning. I understand your 100% commitment to the Rule Book but I stand by my statement that the officials should have used better Common Sense. I think we can agree that this was a "judgement call". Based on a earlier comment, somebody said that the crew talked it over for 5 minutes before even dropping a flag. They didn't throw a flag immediately because it truly had no impact on the play, on any of the 22 players on the field or any of the officials either.

Here is my why, in my opinion, this crew made a terrible decision. One (of several) indyStar articles about this game had this headline: "Trick plays, controversy, OT finish: Brebeuf vs. Danville football sectional had it all." If that 4th down stop had been the final play of the game, the word controversy would not apply to this game at all. Do you think anybody on the Brebeuf sideline immediately thought "No fair! Some of their guys left the sideline before the whistle was blown & that's why we didn't score!"???

 

 

[slice60]

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

My brother tore his ACL right at the start of his senior season…..life’s full of little disappointments, I’d expect my offspring to handle the situation with some class and dignity, isn’t that part of what we’re trying to teach with education based sports?

The rest of it Bob handled beautifully. As Bob points out, some of the people whining I would LOVE to see them put in this situation. Right, wrong, or indifferent, these guys are in the arena, you’re whining on the internet. 

Poor analogy. Same thing happened to me in my senior year. Disappointing? Absolutely. But injuries just happen though nobody's fault.

I have zero allegiance to either team. I watched some of this game online but stopped at 35-14 thinking it was decided. I missed Danville scoring 29 straight 4th Qtr points...Brebeuf scoring a miracle TD to get to OT...& the OT in which Danville scored a TD & then stopped Brebeuf on 4 plays. Game over. Period. Those Danville kids pulled off a once-in-a-lifetime comeback against a great Brebeuf team & then got robbed by the refs.

You can call it whining. I am just voicing my opinion & I feel bad for those Danville kids.

From an IndyStar article:

“In high school football, it was one of the oddest endings I’ve ever seen. Really disappointing for our kids because the game wasn’t decided on the field unfortunately,” Danville coach Jayme Comer said. “Officials are put in really difficult situations. That crew, their white hat got hurt last week, and they had a new white hat. It was his first game as a white hat all season, and it was definitely a difficult spot for him and for them to be in.

“I don’t know. I wish that we would have won the game, and we all feel we did. They deserve the right to play another week of the season, and unfortunately, that was taken away from them.”

 

[Bobref]

27 minutes ago, slice60 said:

I understand your 100% commitment to the Rule Book but I stand by my statement that the officials should have used better Common Sense.

As I said before, we agree. This was the wrong outcome. You call it common sense. I call it understanding the philosophy behind the rules. We arrive at the same place.

[PHJIrish]

4 hours ago, slice60 said:

Two words: COMMON SENSE. 

I have a follow-up question for Bobref & any other officiating experts-- WHY WASN'T THIS CALLED A SIMPLE SIDELINE WARNING??? No penalty yardage, game over.

Players celebrating 20+ yards from the action had no impact on the play itself. Officials always need to use COMMON SENSE. This is not the NFL in which every little infraction is scrutinized & every ruling by each official is graded. 

This game was stolen away from Danville. Period.

Like!

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

As I said before, we agree. This was the wrong outcome. You call it common sense. I call it understanding the philosophy behind the rules. We arrive at the same place.

Another like!

[jets]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

As I said before, we agree. This was the wrong outcome. You call it common sense. I call it understanding the philosophy behind the rules. We arrive at the same place.

Bob - you said on the "officiating forum" earlier in the week, that sometimes refs have to use their "judgement" - and that not everything is so black/white as outlined in the rulebook. (I believe you even said "that's why you guys make the big bucks" lol). 

From an outsiders perspective with no skin in this game, this would seem to be one of those instances. 

[PHJIrish]

1 minute ago, jets said:

Bob - you said on the "officiating forum" earlier in the week, that sometimes refs have to use their "judgement" - and that not everything is so black/white as outlined in the rulebook. (I believe you even said "that's why you guys make the big bucks" lol). 

From an outsiders perspective with no skin in this game, this would seem to be one of those instances. 

Like!

[Bobref]

18 minutes ago, jets said:

Bob - you said on the "officiating forum" earlier in the week, that sometimes refs have to use their "judgement" - and that not everything is so black/white as outlined in the rulebook. (I believe you even said "that's why you guys make the big bucks" lol). 

From an outsiders perspective with no skin in this game, this would seem to be one of those instances. 

Agreed. However, “judgment” does not mean “do whatever you think is fair.” Judgment must be exercised within the boundaries of the rules and the philosophy behind the rules. Specific to this situation: you are not free to resolve the issue with a sideline warning, since the rules regarding sideline warnings don’t fit this situation.

[Stoner]

10 hours ago, Bobref said:

Agreed. However, “judgment” does not mean “do whatever you think is fair.” Judgment must be exercised within the boundaries of the rules and the philosophy behind the rules. Specific to this situation: you are not free to resolve the issue with a sideline warning, since the rules regarding sideline warnings don’t fit this situation.

A few weeks ago in the Martinsville/Mooresville game, a fan blew an air horn during play—drew a flag from the white hat (state finals crew)—sideline warning. Next play, air horn again—flag again—15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct. 
 

Really doubt if that fits protocol, but there were no more airhorns that night.

[Bobref]

You’re right, it doesn’t fit the protocol. Pretty hard to conceal the fact that you’re blowing an air horn. Proper procedure is to notify game management and let them take care of it. Similar to someone in the stands blowing a whistle.

[Impartial_Observer]

16 hours ago, slice60 said:

Poor analogy. Same thing happened to me in my senior year. Disappointing? Absolutely. But injuries just happen though nobody's fault.

I have zero allegiance to either team. I watched some of this game online but stopped at 35-14 thinking it was decided. I missed Danville scoring 29 straight 4th Qtr points...Brebeuf scoring a miracle TD to get to OT...& the OT in which Danville scored a TD & then stopped Brebeuf on 4 plays. Game over. Period. Those Danville kids pulled off a once-in-a-lifetime comeback against a great Brebeuf team & then got robbed by the refs.

You can call it whining. I am just voicing my opinion & I feel bad for those Danville kids.

From an IndyStar article:

“In high school football, it was one of the oddest endings I’ve ever seen. Really disappointing for our kids because the game wasn’t decided on the field unfortunately,” Danville coach Jayme Comer said. “Officials are put in really difficult situations. That crew, their white hat got hurt last week, and they had a new white hat. It was his first game as a white hat all season, and it was definitely a difficult spot for him and for them to be in.

“I don’t know. I wish that we would have won the game, and we all feel we did. They deserve the right to play another week of the season, and unfortunately, that was taken away from them.”

 

So since we have a scape goat, we can assign blame, and thus whine about it on the internet. Life is unfair, some choose to whine, some move on. 

[tango]

17 hours ago, slice60 said:

Poor analogy. Same thing happened to me in my senior year. Disappointing? Absolutely. But injuries just happen though nobody's fault.

I have zero allegiance to either team. I watched some of this game online but stopped at 35-14 thinking it was decided. I missed Danville scoring 29 straight 4th Qtr points...Brebeuf scoring a miracle TD to get to OT...& the OT in which Danville scored a TD & then stopped Brebeuf on 4 plays. Game over. Period. Those Danville kids pulled off a once-in-a-lifetime comeback against a great Brebeuf team & then got robbed by the refs.

You can call it whining. I am just voicing my opinion & I feel bad for those Danville kids.

From an IndyStar article:

“I don’t know. I wish that we would have won the game, and we all feel we did. They deserve the right to play another week of the season, and unfortunately, that was taken away from them.”

 

Maybe Danville should have been more disciplined and not put the refs in the position of having to make a decision in the first place? 

[PHJIrish]

1 hour ago, tango said:

Maybe Danville should have been more disciplined and not put the refs in the position of having to make a decision in the first place? 

That's an old way of putting it, blame it on the team and the kids.  I've heard that excuse since I was a young'un and I'm ove 80 years old now.

[oldtimeqb]

Since we have some officials and some armchair officials in this thread, I have to ask about another play. 

Around 40 seconds left, right after Danville takes the lead 36-35, Brebeuf runs a quick out and the receiver steps out of bounds at :36.

The ball is spotter and the white hat winds the clock. Brebeuf then calls a timeout with :29 seconds left, losing 7 seconds in the process. 

 

Can someone explain that to me?