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Center Grove vs. Cathedral @Tech


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5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

A lot of flags Bob. 

We aren't talking missed holding calls or anything like that, just thought it was a flag happy crew. 11 personal fouls against Cathedral alone in a game that wasn't even all that chippy is a bit excessive, in my opinion.

A flawed analysis. There’s no such thing as “excessive” where personal fouls are concerned. Every play is a separate play. You don’t see something that meets all the criteria for a flag, but stop and say “I’ve already called 3 of those, so I won’t call this one.” Criticize individual calls as warranted or unwarranted. But the sheer number is meaningless. You call what needs to be called without regard for numbers.
 

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37 minutes ago, Bobref said:

A flawed analysis. There’s no such thing as “excessive” where personal fouls are concerned. Every play is a separate play. You don’t see something that meets all the criteria for a flag, but stop and say “I’ve already called 3 of those, so I won’t call this one.” Criticize individual calls as warranted or unwarranted. But the sheer number is meaningless. You call what needs to be called without regard for numbers.
 

Then you could literally throw a flag for unnecessary roughness after every play. 11 personal fouls for ticky tack stuff is excessive. I was there, you weren't and it was excessive in nature and I think fans from both teams would agree. 

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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Then you could literally throw a flag for unnecessary roughness after every play. 11 personal fouls for ticky tack stuff is excessive. I was there, you weren't and it was excessive in nature and I think fans from both teams would agree. 

I couldn’t care less what fans say. It’s not a popularity contest, and they’re not on the field. Maybe we should officiate the game from the stands, or impose quotas on flags?

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28 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I couldn’t care less what fans say. It’s not a popularity contest, and they’re not on the field. Maybe we should officiate the game from the stands, or impose quotas on flags?

Bob,

Made a simple observation that the crew was flag happy. I though there was an excessive amount of penalties (especially personal fouls) called on both teams. If you're going to call a personal foul for unnecessary roughness because there's contact after the whistle, then it needs to be thrown on every play. I thought all but one or two were extremely ticky tack and soft in nature. It's football. I don't think this officiating crew had their best night and really let the game get to them. 

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Geez, if the webcast crew said it, it must be true.

There were flags that were definitely warranted. There were some where I felt it was excessive after watching the game. I don't complain about officiating much at all and I definitely had no dog in the fight.

.The comment about the webcast crew was that they said this same crew did the Cathedral/Jeffersonville game and it was mentioned to them they were excessive with their flags. Didn't watch that game have no idea, I have watched other games and haven't seen the problem through 6 other games. Not saying the officials are bad, but in my opinion you get different enforcements from different crews. 

I don't think the officials should be shredded. I also don't think a team should be stated  that there might be a problem when it hasn't been a problem in 6 other games I have watched (one of those being their most heated rival). Could be just the strict enforcement by that particular crew. It may be something they do consistently too through all games they officiate.

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8 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

There were flags that were definitely warranted. There were some where I felt it was excessive after watching the game. I don't complain about officiating much at all and I definitely had no dog in the fight.

.The comment about the webcast crew was that they said this same crew did the Cathedral/Jeffersonville game and it was mentioned to them they were excessive with their flags. Didn't watch that game have no idea, I have watched other games and haven't seen the problem through 6 other games. Not saying the officials are bad, but in my opinion you get different enforcements from different crews. 

I don't think the officials should be shredded. I also don't think a team should be stated  that there might be a problem when it hasn't been a problem in 6 other games I have watched (one of those being their most heated rival). Could be just the strict enforcement by that particular crew. It may be something they do consistently too through all games they officiate.

100% agree.

Respect 99.9% of what Bob has posted over the years, but then takes these kind of stances that lay people in the stands can't have an opinion or there's no way an officiating crew got it wrong. 

Like I said in my initial post, I didn't take issue with the live ball penalties and thought they called a clean game for the most part. But the personal fouls were extremely egregious and I thought they were excessive. 

Edited by Footballking16
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1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

There were flags that were definitely warranted. There were some where I felt it was excessive after watching the game. I don't complain about officiating much at all and I definitely had no dog in the fight.

.The comment about the webcast crew was that they said this same crew did the Cathedral/Jeffersonville game and it was mentioned to them they were excessive with their flags. Didn't watch that game have no idea, I have watched other games and haven't seen the problem through 6 other games. Not saying the officials are bad, but in my opinion you get different enforcements from different crews. 

I don't think the officials should be shredded. I also don't think a team should be stated  that there might be a problem when it hasn't been a problem in 6 other games I have watched (one of those being their most heated rival). Could be just the strict enforcement by that particular crew. It may be something they do consistently too through all games they officiate.

I do know it wasn't the same crew in both games.

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25 minutes ago, Irish Line Momma said:

Agreed.  It was not the same crew.  

WHAT????  You can’t mean the webcast team got that wrong! Blasphemy! Sacrilege!

4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

100% agree.

Respect 99.9% of what Bob has posted over the years, but then takes these kind of stances that lay people in the stands can't have an opinion or there's no way an officiating crew got it wrong. 

Like I said in my initial post, I didn't take issue with the live ball penalties and thought they called a clean game for the most part. But the personal fouls were extremely egregious and I thought they were excessive. 

In fact, of course, I didn’t say either of those things.

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4 hours ago, JustRules said:

I do know it wasn't the same crew in both games.

No it was not.  The only Cathedral game with a lot of penalties was the Bishop Chatard game and that was not the same crew either.

I have seen all nine Cathedral games this year, including 3 in Cincinnati, and there was no problems with any personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct in any of them.  I only complain when a complaint is due, and this time complaints are due.

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1 hour ago, PHJIrish said:

No it was not.  The only Cathedral game with a lot of penalties was the Bishop Chatard game and that was not the same crew either.

I have seen all nine Cathedral games this year, including 3 in Cincinnati, and there was no problems with any personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct in any of them.  I only complain when a complaint is due, and this time complaints are due.

PHJ, you know I have immense respect for you. I can’t comment on whether any particular fouls were justified or not. My only point is that sheer numbers don’t say anything about whether the game was well-officiated or not. You don’t complain about officiating, so I take what you said very seriously. If there’s video available, I’ll be happy to look at it and tell you what I think. But until I see it, I’m giving the officials the benefit of the doubt, numbers notwithstanding.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

PHJ, you know I have immense respect for you. I can’t comment on whether any particular fouls were justified or not. My only point is that sheer numbers don’t say anything about whether the game was well-officiated or not. You don’t complain about officiating, so I take what you said very seriously. If there’s video available, I’ll be happy to look at it and tell you what I think. But until I see it, I’m giving the officials the benefit of the doubt, numbers notwithstanding.

It’s not just the sheer number that makes it excessive. It’s the quality or lack thereof I had an issue with. Calling unnecessary roughness after two guys shoulder each as they’re walking back to the huddle a half second after the whistle blows is excessive regardless if it’s called one time or a hundred times.

 

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12 hours ago, Bobref said:

PHJ, you know I have immense respect for you. I can’t comment on whether any particular fouls were justified or not. My only point is that sheer numbers don’t say anything about whether the game was well-officiated or not. You don’t complain about officiating, so I take what you said very seriously. If there’s video available, I’ll be happy to look at it and tell you what I think. But until I see it, I’m giving the officials the benefit of the doubt, numbers notwithstanding.

Kickoff starts about 22 min in.

 

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16 hours ago, Irish Line Momma said:

Agreed.  It was not the same crew.  

 

14 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

No it was not.  The only Cathedral game with a lot of penalties was the Bishop Chatard game and that was not the same crew either.

I have seen all nine Cathedral games this year, including 3 in Cincinnati, and there was no problems with any personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct in any of them.  I only complain when a complaint is due, and this time complaints are due.

 

19 hours ago, JustRules said:

I do know it wasn't the same crew in both games.

Thank you @JustRules, @PHJIrish, @Irish Line Momma having not watched the Jeffersonville game and not knowing the crews between the 2 games the only information I had was what the CG webcast crew stated. I'm not sure why @Bobref took exception with that part of my post. I believe I even mentioned I've no way of knowing that for sure. It didn't have to be as big of a deal as it was made out to be. My observation of the calls in the game were from what I observed not what the webcast crew felt or stated. I only brought to light their statement about many flags thrown in the game against Jeffersonville. At any rate I posted video of the game for Bob to observe, I respect his observations of officiating mechanics so I will be interested to see what his thoughts are. Of course I understand this won't be the same as game film recorded by each team which would be better.

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35 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I respect his observations of officiating mechanics so I will be interested to see what his thoughts are. Of course I understand this won't be the same as game film recorded by each team which would be better.

That's the issue though, a personal foul unnecessary roughness is a subjective call made at the discretion of the referee. It's a judgement call. There's no right or wrong answer. That's why I thought the majority of them I thought were excessive. They weren't warranted. I've seen much worse go unflagged. Nearly 15 flagged personal fouls between the two teams that resulted in ZERO ejections, skirmishes, etc is excessive. The refs only escalated the situation.

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19 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Thank you. I’ll take a look at it.

Starts early third quarter, Cathedral had 4 thrown on them in about 7 or 8 plays, 3 consecutively.

First one starts with Cathedral punting early in the third quarter. A Center Grove player takes out the Cathedral LS 30 yards downfield, pancakes him, and lays on him till the end of the whistle. A second Cathedral player comes to help him up as the Center Grover player is simultaneously getting up. They bump shoulders. I don't know why I was watching at that juncture (fair catch maybe?) but I saw the ref fumble in his waistband for the flag and thought, "there is no way he is calling that a late hit". Sure enough he did and just thought to myself that is the softest sh*t I  have even seen in a football game. Cathedral later goes on to get called for 3 consecutive dead ball personal fouls on the ensuing Center Grove drive.

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On 10/21/2019 at 6:23 PM, Bobref said:

PHJ, you know I have immense respect for you. I can’t comment on whether any particular fouls were justified or not. My only point is that sheer numbers don’t say anything about whether the game was well-officiated or not. You don’t complain about officiating, so I take what you said very seriously. If there’s video available, I’ll be happy to look at it and tell you what I think. But until I see it, I’m giving the officials the benefit of the doubt, numbers notwithstanding.

Bob, I respect your opinion and I suggest you stay out of this one.  It's not defensible.

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23 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

Bob, I respect your opinion and I suggest you stay out of this one.  It's not defensible.

You are guys are making different arguments. He's not saying the calls were right or wrong. He's saying that just because a team had more fouls in one game compared to another or they had more fouls than their opponent that the officiating was bad. You may be right that the calls were wrong, but they should be judged on the calls themselves and not by number.

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6 hours ago, JustRules said:

You are guys are making different arguments. He's not saying the calls were right or wrong. He's saying that just because a team had more fouls in one game compared to another or they had more fouls than their opponent that the officiating was bad. You may be right that the calls were wrong, but they should be judged on the calls themselves and not by number.

I'm also saying the calls were excessive, whether right or wrong.  It's not worth carrying on this conversation any further , imo.

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2 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

I'm also saying the calls were excessive, whether right or wrong.  It's not worth carrying on this conversation any further , imo.

How could they be excessive if they were right? Do you want us to stop calling fouls because we've already called too many in a game? And you pretty clearly said they were incorrect because there were a lot of them and many more than any other Cathedral game. That's the fact Bob was pointing out. You may be 100% right that the calls were wrong. I have no idea since I didn't watch the game.

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17 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

I wasn't there either....but being in the stands doesn't give one the advantage of what was done or said....

Bottom line, the Irish got the victory...isn't this horse dead by now?

Actually watching the replay of the game does give one an advantage.  I do believe that this case is closed however.

19 hours ago, JustRules said:

How could they be excessive if they were right? Do you want us to stop calling fouls because we've already called too many in a game? And you pretty clearly said they were incorrect because there were a lot of them and many more than any other Cathedral game. That's the fact Bob was pointing out. You may be 100% right that the calls were wrong. I have no idea since I didn't watch the game.

I attended the game and watched the replay on tv.  I was just telling Bob, who I consider a good friend, to not waste his time trying to defend the crew.

Now let's put this one to rest!

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