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Blind Draw - An Absolute Tragedy


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1 minute ago, DT said:

Probably.

But what a letdown for a #1 seed to practice all week following the draw , knowing they are a 65 point favorite over the #8 seed.

And what additional life lessons are to be learned by the 0-9 #8 seed, going in as a huge 65 point dog against the 9-0 top seed.

Really?  Why bother.

Is this competitive balance and what Bobby Cox and his henchmen dreamed of for Indiana high school football?

 

Doubtful

1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 first round games will be very poor draws.  The outcome is predetermined.  Why go?

Our team didn't care who they were playing that Friday, strong or weak opponent, they just wanted to keep playing. Period.  I see it as a great way to get your backups some valuable, and coveted, playoff experience .  Also possibly giving your starters a little extra rest, and keeping them out of harms way for just a little longer to get ready for when they hit serious competition. 

As for a #8 seeded team, that's why  Texas and probably most other states only take the upper percentage of districts/conferences.etc.  An 8 seed that is 0-9, 1-8, whatever has no business in the playoffs.  Want to go into post season?  Get better.  Aside from a couple outliers (very weak districts) there are hardly any teams below .500 in the post season down here.  That part of the season is for the winners.   If the system works properly, it should result in increasing the chance that the BEST teams play each other later in post season. 

The winner of a game with two top teams could find themselves up against the winner of two weak teams in round 2.  Then you still have the potential for a blowout in that round.

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18 minutes ago, slice60 said:

So you want the entire field seeded? I'm sure that wouldn't cause controversy.

Yes. Eliminate half the field after the conclusion of a 10 week regular season. Take the 16 northern most teams and 16 southern most teams in 1A-4A ( 8 teams for 5A-6A) and seed them 1-16 or 1-8. High seed hosts sectional and regional, semi-state neutral site, championships played at LOS Thanksgiving weekend.

 

18 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Plus, you would have long travel for early round games. I'm sure no one would bitch about that-- both because the road team would have to sit on a bus for 2-3 hours & only their fans diehard would be make the trip (which means lower attendance).

In some cases, sure, but there's already lengthy travel in some sectionals as well as regionals. Wouldn't have to travel all the way for a semi-state game + you already cut out a round. I think it evens itself out. I think a team that has generally earned their way to this post season would generate more excitement from the fan base don't you? I can assure you there aren't poor attendance in the later rounds of every other state that has figured out a qualification system.

18 minutes ago, slice60 said:

ARE ANY OF THESE BRILLIANT IDEAS EVEN ON THE IHSAA RADAR OR IS IT JUST AN ANNUAL GID FORUM WASTE OF TIME???

Probably not, still doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed, especially when the current format sucks. It took forever to push for alcohol sales on Sunday in the state of Indiana and legalization of marijuana and sports gambling on a federal level. Just a matter of gaining enough traction. The GID is the perfect place for that. Sorry for wasting your time on a thread that you voluntarily not only chose to read but reply too. 

Edited by Footballking16
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4 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

Our team didn't care who they were playing that Friday, strong or weak opponent, they just wanted to keep playing. Period.  I see it as a great way to get your backups some valuable, and coveted, playoff experience .  Also possibly giving your starters a little extra rest, and keeping them out of harms way for just a little longer to get ready for when they hit serious competition. 

As for a #8 seeded team, that's why  Texas and probably most other states only take the upper percentage of districts/conferences.etc.  An 8 seed that is 0-9, 1-8, whatever has no business in the playoffs.  Want to go into post season?  Get better.  Aside from a couple outliers (very weak districts) there are hardly any teams below .500 in the post season down here.  That part of the season is for the winners.   If the system works properly, it should result in increasing the chance that the BEST teams play each other later in post season. 

The winner of a game with two top teams could find themselves up against the winner of two weak teams in round 2.  Then you still have the potential for a blowout in that round.

There are 3240 high schools in Texas.  You could never have an all in tourney and still finish before Christmas.https://www.google.com/search?q=total+texas+high+schools&oq=total+texas+high+schools&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l4.5990j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

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1 hour ago, DT said:

Would you rather see Chatard-WL on a crisp dark October Friday night or in mid November with sleet, mud and wind?

 

Mid-November with sleet, mud and wind if it means it's in the Sectional Championship game

Already going to have a very tough game with Brebeuf on that desired crisp, dark October Friday night

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3 minutes ago, bigfish said:

Mid-November with sleet, mud and wind if it means it's in the Sectional Championship game

Already going to have a very tough game with Brebeuf on that desired crisp, dark October Friday night

Football, an outdoor sport.

I'm sure both Chatard and West Lafayette would like to see each other in adverse conditions. Slows down each teams offensive attack.

Edited by Footballking16
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1 minute ago, bigfish said:

Mid-November with sleet, mud and wind if it means it's in the Sectional Championship game

Kids love it   Parents hate it.

Reminds me when I was a kid on New Years Day.  On occasion, the Cotton Bowl in Dallas would get snow.  So we would go out and play in the Indiana snow, pretending we were Notre Dame against Texas in the snow.

Great fun.  

 

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22 minutes ago, DT said:

There are 3240 high schools in Texas.  You could never have an all in tourney and still finish before Christmas.https://www.google.com/search?q=total+texas+high+schools&oq=total+texas+high+schools&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l4.5990j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

That's correct, it would be impossible. Still, the playoffs should be for the best teams, or at least the winning teams, regardless of the geographic location. We gotta agree to disagree on this one.

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12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Football, an outdoor sport.

I'm sure both Chatard and West Lafayette would like to see each other in adverse conditions. Slows down each teams offensive attack.

Since WL passes about 2/3 of the time, I agree that Chatard would love to see adverse conditions!

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Just now, Bonecrusher said:

That's correct, it would be impossible. Still, the playoffs should be for the best teams, or at least the winning teams, regardless of the geographic location. We gotta agree to disagree on this one.

I believe that what TX is doing is right for TX, and what IN is doing is right for IN.  Both have models that reward the best teams in a fair and competitive manner

 

We have schools in Indiana that should not be playing football, for a variety of reasons.  Once we cull them out of the equation, a more fair, equitable and competitive playoff format will be considered.

 

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1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

I believe that was what the polled IFCA Coaches came out to.  

AS SEEN HERE:  https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2017/11/26/high-school-football-coaches-present-seeding-mercy-rule-proposal/895660001/  

 

OR THIS: 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2018/02/02/high-school-sports-notebook-seeding-football-tournament-hold/300246002/

 

 

SO ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT:   IFCA, ADMINS, have attempted to put forth something VERY RECENTLY, it was shot down VERY QUICKLY, even after the mercy rule has taken shape.  

 

I look forward to IFCA Winter Board of Directors meeting, (actually I am not, as I hope to be preparing for a game that day, just saying)   

 

 

So folks just going to ignore the fact that the IFCA put a proposal forward to IHSAA before pulling it because of obvious reasons.   

Folks acting like coaches/admins have not been working on this for last few years and probably still working on it today.  

IFCA got Mr. Cox's Mercy rule in place

IFCA got Mr. Faulkens 40 sec clock in place and actually took a pilot program that got fast tracked to a NFHS standard only after 3 years.   

Maybe the IHSAA will get with IFCA propsal SOON on seeding of sectionals, but I do know THIS, there is NOT any conversation other than here with leaderships of IFCA and IHSAA pertaining to getting rid of ALL IN 

 

oh yea: 

BOOSTER TIME??  

https://gridirondigest.net/clients/donations/1-2019-20-budget/

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13 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

IFCA got Mr. Faulkens 40 sec clock in place and actually took a pilot program that got fast tracked to a NFHS standard only after 3 years.   

I wouldn't say fast tracked. Experiments are only allowed for 3 years so it would have been removed for Indiana this year if the NFHS rules committee hadn't passed it. This was the 5th year it was voted on. The first year Mr. Faulkens submitted it and it failed he wanted to do an experiment, but he found out there is a formal process to get approved for an experiment. It was voted on the next year and failed, but he got approval for the experiment. After the first and second year it was submitted again but failed again. That's why this year's vote was critical for Indiana to retain this rule everyone seems to love.

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1 minute ago, JustRules said:

I wouldn't say fast tracked. Experiments are only allowed for 3 years so it would have been removed for Indiana this year if the NFHS rules committee hadn't passed it. This was the 5th year it was voted on. The first year Mr. Faulkens submitted it and it failed he wanted to do an experiment, but he found out there is a formal process to get approved for an experiment. It was voted on the next year and failed, but he got approval for the experiment. After the first and second year it was submitted again but failed again. That's why this year's vote was critical for Indiana to retain this rule everyone seems to love.

Tomatoes 

Tomatoes 

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21 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

So folks just going to ignore the fact that the IFCA put a proposal forward to IHSAA before pulling it because of obvious reasons.   

Folks acting like coaches/admins have not been working on this for last few years and probably still working on it today.  

IFCA got Mr. Cox's Mercy rule in place

IFCA got Mr. Faulkens 40 sec clock in place and actually took a pilot program that got fast tracked to a NFHS standard only after 3 years.   

Maybe the IHSAA will get with IFCA propsal SOON on seeding of sectionals, but I do know THIS, there is NOT any conversation other than here with leaderships of IFCA and IHSAA pertaining to getting rid of ALL IN 

 

oh yea: 

BOOSTER TIME??  

https://gridirondigest.net/clients/donations/1-2019-20-budget/

In my opinion, seeding and the all-in simply isn’t compatible, even if you were to seed the top 2 teams 

In its current format, the IHSAA can justify unnecessary postseason blowouts citing a “blind draw” as the reason. On average in any given year statewide, I would say there’s one dominant team (sometimes 2) and maybe another team or two that would at least be “competitive”. You separate the top two teams until the sectional final by seeding them, the IHSAA is going to have to answer to unnecessary blowouts in rounds 1 and 2. 

The only logical solution would then be to go to a qualifying format or back the fundamentally flawed format of an all-in, blind draw.

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3 hours ago, DT said:

Would you rather see Chatard-WL on a crisp dark October Friday night or in mid November with sleet, mud and wind?

 

I’d rather see it in the last days of November with sleet, mud and wind outside while comfortably ensconced on the 50 yard line at Lucas Oil Stadium.

To make it perfect you could add a pizza buffet.......

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26 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

In my opinion, seeding and the all-in simply isn’t compatible, even if you were to seed the top 2 teams 

In its current format, the IHSAA can justify unnecessary postseason blowouts citing a “blind draw” as the reason. On average in any given year statewide, I would say there’s one dominant team (sometimes 2) and maybe another team or two that would at least be “competitive”. You separate the top two teams until the sectional final by seeding them, the IHSAA is going to have to answer to unnecessary blowouts in rounds 1 and 2. 

The only logical solution would then be to go to a qualifying format or back the fundamentally flawed format of an all-in, blind draw.

don't hold your breath my friend 

though your passion in year 7 (give or take my memory bank) in this regard is commendable 

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3 hours ago, hick said:

I agree.  Did I say something different?  My point was instead of Linton and Mater Dei playing in the championship they will in round 2, which compared to some other draws, isn't that bad. Sectional 40 lined up pretty well.  Pioneer, Cass, Avon, Brownsburg, and others have much worse draws. 

If Linton swaps with NK how would you feel?

I'd feel better knowing the best 2 teams were in opposite sides of the bracket and should meet in the title game.  However, I wouldn't want them to necessarily swap with North Knox.  Maybe swap with one of the other 3 teams in the bottom bracket.  I'd be good with a rematch with North Knox.  I think they are the 3rd best team in Sectional 40.

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46 minutes ago, itiswhatitis said:

I'd feel better knowing the best 2 teams were in opposite sides of the bracket and should meet in the title game.  However, I wouldn't want them to necessarily swap with North Knox.  Maybe swap with one of the other 3 teams in the bottom bracket.  I'd be good with a rematch with North Knox.  I think they are the 3rd best team in Sectional 40.

If I had to pick the order knowing Linton has to face MD & NK in consecutive weeks, I rather MD 1st.  NK & MD both play a physical style that's likely to leave a few lingering bumps and bruises.  I'd rather play NK a little sore than MD. 

Looking down the road...if Linton and NK would square off for the 40 crown, Warrior Field will be rocking!!!

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12 minutes ago, hick said:

If I had to pick the order knowing Linton has to face MD & NK in consecutive weeks, I rather MD 1st.  NK & MD both play a physical style that's likely to leave a few lingering bumps and bruises.  I'd rather play NK a little sore than MD. 

Looking down the road...if Linton and NK would square off for the 40 crown, Warrior Field will be rocking!!!

If they thought the game a couple of weeks ago was "rocking", it would be totally electric if they met for the sectional championship.  I can totally agree with that.  I still believe either Mater Dei or the Miners will go to at least semi-state if not state.  And as things look now, one of those 2 will  have to play the Warriors for the title.  So if that is how it plays out, someone is going to earn it.  Mater Dei would have to beat # 2 and #3 or Linton will have to beat #1 and #3.  It will be exciting however it plays out.  I'd not only like to see seeding for the sectionals, but also a neutral site for the sectional title game.  Same for regional and semi-state.  They do it in Ohio and it works out well.

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4 hours ago, DT said:

I believe that what TX is doing is right for TX, and what IN is doing is right for IN.  Both have models that reward the best teams in a fair and competitive manner

 

We have schools in Indiana that should not be playing football, for a variety of reasons.  Once we cull them out of the equation, a more fair, equitable and competitive playoff format will be considered.

 

Yawn. 

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2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

don't hold your breath my friend 

though your passion in year 7 (give or take my memory bank) in this regard is commendable 

I have no illusions about the likelihood of doing away with the all in format. The “welfare” mentality persists among coaches, fans, administrators, etc., since they’ve never had to earn the right to playoff participation, it’s become a handout. And if you asked 320 people who have been getting a freebie for 30+ years whether they’d be willing to give it up “for the good of society in general,” how many of them do you think would be willing to do so? The problem is that everyone is committed to doing what is best for his or her school. No one is looking out for the best interests of Indiana high school football in general. So, with that mentality, Indiana football will never be as good as it could be.

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9 hours ago, DT said:

It would be good to know how they feel about it.  Perhaps they are envious of the Indiana model.  

Do some research and enlighten us.  You may be in for a surprise.  

 

9 hours ago, DT said:

Are they happy with it?

In general, yes they are. What people are not satisfied with is the fact that they went from 4 classes to 6 classes with only 220 teams playing. That has severely watered down things. Many coaches are in favor of going down in the number of classes. However, people liked the playoff system. Now, this year, they added some type of RPI feature to the playoff that I think coaches hate. It was some state-level decision that was thrown on them and coaches were pissed. 

I will never forget my first season on staff at a school in Kentucky. I explained the Indiana tournament system to them after having coached in it and played in it. I was laughed out of the room. They thought it was the dumbest thing in the world. The more coaches I connected with there, the more dumb they thought it was. 

Many on this thread talk about how awful such a tournament would be. I'd be willing to bet the majority of them have never had the opportunity to experience another system. I'm sure I've told this story before, but one of my most memorable games there was our last regular season game for the district championship. I have never seen such an atmosphere at the high school level. The game was so full, people were standing around the entire track to see the game. There was so much that led up to that game. And if we won, we got the better seed in the tournament. But we didn't, and we got the lower seed. We still won round 1, but it set us up with a tougher round 2 that we couldn't get past. 

I don't advocate dumping the all-in. That would never pass in Indiana. I've always thought if we took the sectional groupings and made those into districts and based seeding on place finish in those districts that it would be a simple, effective way to do it. People complain about losing conference affiliations, but the thing is, most sectionals are loaded with conference opponents. Play a 10 game schedule, play 7 district games and then schedule 3 of whoever you want and relive your conference affiliations if you want. In the playoffs, your seed yields you a game with a matchup with a different sectional so you don't repeat your regular season schedule. 

But I am realistic. This is Indiana and nothing will change in the near future. I just hope they figure out a way to go with the top two seed that keeps getting tossed around. At least it's a start. 

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Well.   My turn.

I would be in for lengthening the season to 10 games, then qualify the top 32 teams in each class.    Best of all worlds.

Some of us remember the Cluster System, and the Points System before that.  Both were perceived as flawed.   The Cluster was only planned for a two year cycle because the All In was coming down the track.  The problem people had with the Cluster System was that if you lost to a cluster team in the regular season, that could keep you out of the tournament.   In my opinion, what a better way to put importance on regular season games.  No taking it easy there.   

Now the Points System was another matter.   We can thank South Bend St. Joe for the demise of that.  They went undefeated like two years in a row and didn't make the playoffs because their opponents "points" didn't add up to enough for them to beat out some other teams in their "district.'   The first year Jimtown made the tournament they wouldn't have went unless Wes-Del lost a game.  If both teams went undefeated, Wed-Del would have acquired more points.  First go-around for Indiana, and it wasn't the greatest, but it did create the tournament.

Now.   If this happens, this thread will morph from "Who is best playing who is second best in the first round," to "That's not fair how the qualifiers were chosen."   We will have gone a full circle back to the early '70's.  🙂   Albeit with better technology so we will probably do a better job.   But it won't be perfect.  There will still be a lot of complaints, and that's what this forum is about.   Discussion.

Now.   Pull out your wallets and become a BOOSTER!   🙂

 

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