Multiplier vs Success Factor - Multiplier is the Pure Choice

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So you are saying the vast majority of these transfers are happening as 8th graders in order to elude the long arm of the IHSAA? 

And what if little Johnny Football, who transferred from school X to school Y as an 8th grader primarily due to school Y's elite football program,  is now in the 11th grade and isn't getting "the touches" his daddy things he should?  Should he be able to transfer to school Z without any penalty from the IHSAA?

 

 

Shouldn't be able too, but the IHSAA in a lot of cases (especially when you transfer back to your original district) tends to look the other way. There were a couple Trudeau brothers (father Jack former Colts player) who started out at Zionsville, transferred to Pike and then believe one of them transferred back to Zionsville. Don't think they had sit out a year.

[Muda69]

4 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

No I didn't say anything of the sort. 

Then exactly are you saying IO?  What does an 8th grader have to do with the IHSAA and athletic transfers?

 

[Muda69]

7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The success factor offsets that lol. If you have success you're bumped up a class.

No, it really doesn't it.  And as others have stated, if we are going to have a 'success factor'  shouldn't we then also have a 'failure factor' that bumps those programs not performing up to their expected enrollment  down a class or two?  After all with the current success factor isn't the current thinking that the higher enrollment classes offer generally tougher competition so therefore the smaller enrollment classes are generally weaker competition?

 

 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Then exactly are you saying IO?  What does an 8th grader have to do with the IHSAA and athletic transfers?

 

An 8th grader that goes to one school for 8th grade and then attends a high school in a different district isn't considered a transfer. It's considered a "transfer" when a student currently enrolled in one high school, transfers to another high school.

The IHSAA has no jurisdiction over open enrollment. It's a state legislation. DOE has ruled that anybody can choose the high school of their choice, so long they can provide transportation among other things. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

No, it really doesn't it.  And as others have stated, if we are going to have a 'success factor'  shouldn't we then also have a 'failure factor' that bumps those programs not performing up to their expected enrollment  down a class or two?  After all with the current success factor isn't the current thinking that the higher enrollment classes offer generally tougher competition so therefore the smaller enrollment classes are generally weaker competition?

 

 

How do you go by regulating or enforcing that? There's only 8 sectional winners in each class. So the ~56 teams in 1A-4A who don't win their sectional get regulated? Where are you going to put all these teams?

[Impartial_Observer]

4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Then exactly are you saying IO?  What does an 8th grader have to do with the IHSAA and athletic transfers?

 

You are using the words “enroll” and “transfer”, interchangeably. If I as an 8th grader choose to enroll at Frankfort HS, that is NOT a transfer. If I’m a sophomore at Seymour HS and my dad is unhappy with the coaching staff and I opt to enroll in the football academy at Frankfort, that is a transfer and my eligibility to play football will be ruled on by the IHSAA. 

You asked if the WL and LJ players were ruled as eligible by the IHSAA, if they enrolled as 8th graders, the IHSAA has no say.

[Muda69]

11 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

You are using the words “enroll” and “transfer”, interchangeably. If I as an 8th grader choose to enroll at Frankfort HS, that is NOT a transfer. If I’m a sophomore at Seymour HS and my dad is unhappy with the coaching staff and I opt to enroll in the football academy at Frankfort, that is a transfer and my eligibility to play football will be ruled on by the IHSAA. 

You asked if the WL and LJ players were ruled as eligible by the IHSAA, if they enrolled as 8th graders, the IHSAA has no say.

Thank you for the clarification.  So the strategy is to identify the OMG! Athletes by the time they are in the 8th grade then steer them to enroll in the correct 'football academy'  as a 9th grader, therefore bypassing the long arm of the IHSAA.

 

16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

How do you go by regulating or enforcing that? There's only 8 sectional winners in each class. So the ~56 teams in 1A-4A who don't win their sectional get regulated? Where are you going to put all these teams?

Exactly.  Which is why a true system of promotion/relegation will work where jury-rigging the current enrollment-based classification system with thing like the success factor really don't.

 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Thank you for the clarification.  So the strategy is to identify the OMG! Athletes by the time they are in the 8th grade then steer them to enroll in the correct 'football academy'  as a 9th grader, therefore bypassing the long arm of the IHSAA.

 

Exactly.  Which is why a true system of promotion/relegation will work where jury-rigging the current enrollment-based classification system with thing like the success factor really don't.

 

How do you regulate that is what I'm asking? So if you don't win your sectional you move down a class? 1 of Avon/Brownsburg isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me the loser of that game moves down to 5A? 3 of Guerin/Chatard/West Lafayette/Brebuef isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me those 3 teams now move down to 2A? That's how promotion/regulation works? That fixes competitive balance? 

Pass me what you're having.

[Muda69]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

How do you regulate that is what I'm asking? So if you don't win your sectional you move down a class? 1 of Avon/Brownsburg isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me the loser of that game moves down to 5A? 3 of Guerin/Chatard/West Lafayette/Brebuef isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me those 3 teams now move down to 2A? That's how promotion/regulation works? That fixes competitive balance? 

Pass me what you're having.

You first have to completely disassociate classifications like '5A' and '2A' from enrollment.  Under a true system of promotion/relegation enrollment has no bearing whatsoever.

Then educate yourself with primers like this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

I'm currently drinking a Diet Mt. Dew.  Want some?

 

  

[Footballking16]

Just now, Muda69 said:

You first have to completely disassociate classifications like '5A' and '2A' from enrollment.  Under a true system of promotion/relegation enrollment has no bearing whatsoever.

Then educate yourself with primers like this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

I'm currently drinking a Diet Mt. Dew.  Want some?

 

  

I know how promotion and relegation works. Unlike professional sports, high schools aren't allocated funds to buy and sell players at the conclusion of each season.

What is your proposal?? How do you initially classify teams outside current enrollment? For someone who has been preaching promotion and relegation for several years, you don't seem to have any kind of contingency plan or any idea how it works.

[Muda69]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I know how promotion and relegation works. Unlike professional sports, high schools aren't allocated funds to buy and sell players at the conclusion of each season.

What is your proposal?? How do you initially classify teams outside current enrollment? For someone who has been preaching promotion and relegation for several years, you don't seem to have any kind of contingency plan or any idea how it works.

I thought open enrollment was the goose that laid the golden OMG! Athlete eggs?

My initial proposal to initially classify teams outside of current enrollment?  Easy:  Sagarin:  http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm

 

 

[Impartial_Observer]

15 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Thank you for the clarification.  So the strategy is to identify the OMG! Athletes by the time they are in the 8th grade then steer them to enroll in the correct 'football academy'  as a 9th grader, therefore bypassing the long arm of the IHSAA.

 

Not just OMG athletes, position players, solid kids, etc. If you look around at rosters, it's not hard to find kids from surrounding school districts. 

Given the school voucher system as it exists today, EVERY school recruits, they have to have butts in seats, their budget depends on it, it's not necessarily about sports. However we always knew it was about the education right? wink, wink, nod, nod.....

[foxbat]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You first have to completely disassociate classifications like '5A' and '2A' from enrollment.  Under a true system of promotion/relegation enrollment has no bearing whatsoever.

Then educate yourself with primers like this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

I'm currently drinking a Diet Mt. Dew.  Want some?

 

  

Doesn't really matter what you call them, they will have associations.  1A, 2A, 3A, etc. is just as good as All-Star-Division, Middle Division, etc. or Gold, Silver, Bronze, or Cat, Dog, Bird even if it has a less-direct/historic meaning in a new form.  Folks know what it means when you make the NIT vs. the NCAA tourney in March and it wouldn't matter if you labelled it March Madness or late-March Madness or Dog and Cat.  And you have to start and then go somewhere, which I believe @Footballking16 is getting at.

 

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I thought open enrollment was the goose that laid the golden OMG! Athlete eggs?

My initial proposal to initially classify teams outside of current enrollment?  Easy:  Sagarin:  http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm

 

 

Based off what? The prior season success? So if School A with an enrollment of 350 kids has an exceptional senior class that makes it to the state finals and finishes the year rated 68th in Sagarin they could potentially play in a tournament with a school that has 3500 kids the next year? Without the senior class that got them there in the first place?

Yeah, good luck.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Footballking16

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Doesn't really matter what you call them, they will have associations.  1A, 2A, 3A, etc. is just as good as All-Star-Division, Middle Division, etc. or Gold, Silver, Bronze, or Cat, Dog, Bird even if it has a less-direct/historic meaning in a new form.  Folks know what it means when you make the NIT vs. the NCAA tourney in March and it wouldn't matter if you labelled it March Madness or late-March Madness or Dog and Cat.  And you have to start and then go somewhere, which I believe @Footballking16 is getting at.

 

That is what I'm getting at, unless at the end of the regular season you put the top 32 Sagarin teams in the top flight, the next top 32 teams in a second flight and so on and so on. If you did it that way you would potentially have a team like Adams Central with an enrollment of ~380 playing against a team like Penn with an enrollment of ~3500. It's nonsense. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Footballking16

[foxbat]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

That is what I'm getting at, unless at the regular season you put the top 32 Sagarin teams in the top flight, the next top 32 teams in a second flight and so on and so on. If you did it that way you would potentially have a team like Adams Central with an enrollment of ~380 playing against a team like Penn with an enrollment of ~3500. It's nonsense. 

I agree.  It would need to be much more holistic than Sagarin and more than just using a single season.  We can't get folks to agree on using Sagarin to seed sectionals, so I doubt there's a likelihood of being able to get folks to agree to use Sagarin for placing teams in divisions.

[Muda69]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Based off what? The prior season success? So if School A with an enrollment of 350 kids has an exceptional senior class that makes it to the state finals and finishes the year rated 68th in Sagarin they could potentially play in a tournament with a school that has 3500 kids the next year? Without the senior class that got them there in the first place?

Yeah, good luck.

You asked for the initial classification.  I answered.     Sure, your scenario could happen the initial year, but if we averaged the sagarin rating over say a 3-5 year period then those football playing schools with a strong established program would tend to be promoted.  Your usual flash-in-the-pan, once-in-a-decade senior class of OMG! Athletes from a government school, not so much.

 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

You asked for the initial classification.  I answered.     Sure, your scenario could happen the initial year, but if we averaged the sagarin rating over say a 3-5 year period then those football playing schools with a strong established program would tend to be promoted.  Your usual flash-in-the-pan, once-in-a-decade senior class of OMG! Athletes from a government school, not so much.

 

And you think pitting teams with an enrollment differential by 2-3k students is the answer to competitive balance?

You're nuts.

[Muda69]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

And you think pitting teams with an enrollment differential by 2-3k students is the answer to competitive balance?

You're nuts.

Yes. It is you who continue to wear your enrollment blinders, not I.

Why do we seem to have no problem with Cathedral competing against the likes of Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central,  yet letting a South Adams, Pioneer, or LCC compete against the likes of West Lafayette, Heritage Hills, Chatard, etc. in a tournament setting is anathema?

 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Yes. It is you who continue to wear your enrollment blinders, not I.

Why do we seem to have no problem with Cathedral competing against the likes of Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central,  yet letting a South Adams, Pioneer, or LCC compete against the likes of West Lafayette, Heritage Hills, Chatard, etc. in a tournament setting is anathema?

 

Because Cathedral CAN compete with those schools and due to the success factor they have to. Chatard or West Lafayette would beat Adams Central by 100 points this year. If Adams Central continues to win, they will be bumped up.

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Because Cathedral CAN compete with those schools and due to the success factor they have to. Chatard or West Lafayette would beat Adams Central by 100 points this year. If Adams Central continues to win, they will be bumped up.

You don't know that.  And you talking about South Adams or Adams Central?

And on the flip side what business does a football program like Crawfordsville have being in this years's sectional 28?  Talking about getting beat by 100 points,  South Adams could probably beat C-ville, a '3A' school, by 100.

 

[JustRules]

Promotion and relegation may work in a professional league where players sign contracts and teams can be developed and retained over a period of time. In HS football teams turnover a large percentage of their roster every year and for the most part the kids playing varsity this year weren't on varsity 2 years ago. There is nothing wrong with overlap in quality from class the class. The top of one class can compete with the top teams of the next class, likely beat the middle teams of the class above them and the bottom teams from the class above that. The issue the success factor helps with is those teams that are significantly better than all the teams in their current class. Yes it's possible a senior class can help bump a team up, but if that's the case they probably wouldn't compete for a state championship at their current level either. That's where having overlap definitely helps.

[Footballking16]

9 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You don't know that.  And you talking about South Adams or Adams Central?

And on the flip side what business does a football program like Crawfordsville have being in this years's sectional 28?  Talking about getting beat by 100 points,  South Adams could probably beat C-ville, a '3A' school, by 100.

 

Yes sorry South Adams, enrollment 369.

They would be playing in a state tournament with schools like Penn, Noblesville, Columbus East, Southport, etc under your current proposal.

Ya, no thanks.

[Lysander]

Promotion and Relegation LOS Tournament (if current Sagarin rankings held up)

6A - Avon defeats Brownsburg

5A - Mooresville defeats New Prairie

4A - Terre Haute South defeats Eastbrook

3A - Evansville Reitz defeats LCC

2A - Edgewood defeats Providence

1A - Springs Valley defeats Munster

 

Also per some of the comments regarding teams above: Cathedral, New Pal, Chatard, West Lafayette, Brebeuf and East Central (not mentioned above but I noticed this result) would all be in the 6A tournament.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Lysander

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes sorry South Adams, enrollment 369.

They would be playing in a state tournament with schools like Penn, Noblesville, Columbus East, Southport, etc under your current proposal.

Ya, no thanks.

Again, that is your enrollment hangup, not mine.  

And nice dodge of the C-ville question.

 

Just now, Lysander said:

Promotion and Relegation LOS Tournament (if current Sagarin rankings no held up)

6A - Avon defeats Brownsburg

5A - Mooresville defeats New Prairie

4A - Terre Haute South defeats Eastbrook

3A - Evansville Reitz defeats LCC

2A - Edgewood defeats Providence

1A - Springs Valley defeats Munster

 

Also per some of the comments regarding teams above: Cathedral, New Pal, Chatard, West Lafayette, Brebeuf and East Central (not mentioned above but I noticed this result) would all be in the 6A tournament.

And you are assuming an all-in tournament format.  That would mostly likely have to change as well, as discussed in a number of current threads on this forum.