Multiplier vs Success Factor - Multiplier is the Pure Choice

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Again, that is your enrollment hangup, not mine.  

And nice dodge of the C-ville question.

 

A school with 369 people isn't to be expected to compete with schools that have 10x their enrollement.

The goal of high school sports nationwide is to crown champions based on like-size enrollement, not field a tournament that crowns a champion among the 64 worst teams in the state. What is so hard to understand about that?

The IHSAA would open themselves up to endless amounts of lawsuits if they orchestrated a tournament in such fashion. Penn playing a team like South Adams is a disaster waiting to happen from an injury perspective. 

[Lysander]

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

And you are assuming an all-in tournament format.  That would mostly likely have to change as well, as discussed in a number of current threads on this forum.

I have always been a pro-seeding, pro-“all-in” guy.  Though I certainly wouldn’t die fighting on the “all-in” hill.

Well......to be honest, I’m only prepared to die on the LOS State Championship pizza buffet hill.

[Muda69]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

A school with 369 people isn't to be expected to compete with schools that have 10x their enrollement.

The goal of high school sports nationwide is to crown champions based on like-size enrollement, not field a tournament that crowns a champion among the 64 worst teams in the state. What is so hard to understand about that?

The IHSAA would open themselves up to endless amounts of lawsuits if they orchestrated a tournament in such fashion. Penn playing a team like South Adams is a disaster waiting to happen from an injury perspective. 

Tell that to the real Indiana high school basketball tournament, pre-1997.  Hmm, and think many here would have a problem with "champions" being the goal of high school sports.  I've been told the opposite on this forum many times over the years.

And the IHSAA is a voluntary organization. If a number of high school AD's don't like how they run the organization, then by all means form your own.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Muda69

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Tell that to the real Indiana high school basketball tournament, pre-1997.

And the IHSAA is a voluntary organization. If a number of high school AD's don't like how they run the organization, then by all means form your own.

 

Basketball is completely different than football.

[Muda69]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

Basketball is completely different than football.

Yes, it is a different sport.  Here, you get a star.

 

[Lysander]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

A school with 369 people isn't to be expected to compete with schools that have 10x their enrollement.

The goal of high school sports nationwide is to crown champions based on like-size enrollement, not field a tournament that crowns a champion among the 64 worst teams in the state. What is so hard to understand about that?

The IHSAA would open themselves up to endless amounts of lawsuits if they orchestrated a tournament in such fashion. Penn playing a team like South Adams is a disaster waiting to happen from an injury perspective. 

Aside from the various impracticalities you have pointed out, I have always maintained it is impossible due to the “seeding” element required.

We have dinosaurs here that won’t even agree that seeding the Top 2 teams in a Sectional is a good or possible idea.........or even a fair idea.  

Just how does anyone think they are going to get those troglodytes to sign on to seeding teams numbered 1-320.

I will sooner be able to flap my arms and fly before people agree to seed every single team in order.

[Coach Nowlin]

if sagarin is sole basis of placement in any kind of tournament, I will make sure to score as many points as possible and never pull a starter against weaker competition so that our Sagain number can get bumps for margin of victory

That is why Sagarin is not the end all discussion as it can be manipulated for your advantage 

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

if sagarin is sole basis of placement in any kind of tournament, I will make sure to score as many points as possible and never pull a starter against weaker competition so that our Sagain number can get bumps for margin of victory

That is why Sagarin is not the end all discussion as it can be manipulated for your advantage 

Imagine Muda typing a thread trying to justify promotion/relegation using Sagarin as his basis for measurement while also chiding schools for "running up the score".

That my friends is quite the conundrum. 

[Muda69]

14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Imagine Muda typing a thread trying to justify promotion/relegation using Sagarin as his basis for measurement while also chiding schools for "running up the score".

That my friends is quite the conundrum. 

I only said Sagarin could be used for the initial slotting of teams into non-enrollment based classifications. I never said it would be the method going forward to determine what teams to promote and what teams to relegate.   

 

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I only said Sagarin could be used for the initial slotting of teams into non-enrollment based classifications. I never said it would be the method going forward to determine what teams to promote and what teams to relegate.   

 

lol

[Muda69]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

lol

Prove me wrong.   

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Prove me wrong.   

No need Muda

[Muda69]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

No need Muda

Thought so.  Just keep talking out the both sides of your mouth, decrying the evils of Sagarin on this thread while virtually extolling it's virtues in another.

 

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Prove me wrong.   

Though I do need a good laugh this morning.

What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? You only seem to cite a wikipedia page for European soccer whenever you're asked this question. 

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Thought so.  Just keep talking out the both sides of your mouth, decrying the evils of Sagarin on this thread while virtually extolling it's virtues in another.

 

I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you. 

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Though I do need a good laugh this morning.

What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? You only seem to cite a wikipedia page for European soccer whenever you're asked this question. 

I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you. 

@Muda69 I take it by your downvote you don't have an actual proposal? 

[Muda69]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Though I do need a good laugh this morning.

Yes, you make me chuckle as well with your stubborn adherence to the status quo.  As long as it benefits Cathedral, of course.  A p/p zealot to the core.

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? 

Honestly that has yet to be determined.  I'll let the mathematical whizzes and quants figure that out.   I'm more of an idea man.

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you. 

?  Please elaborate.   

[Footballking16]

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes, you make me chuckle as well with your stubborn adherence to the status quo.  As long as it benefits Cathedral, of course.  A p/p zealot to the core.

Status quo? Cathedral has been promoted several times lol. Not only that, they've been promoted 2 classes, the only program to have that happen to them. They are still playing up 1 class to their natural enrollment and you haven't heard me complain about it one time.

What an outstanding hill to die on Muda.

[Muda69]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Status quo? Cathedral has been promoted several times lol. Not only that, they've been promoted 2 classes, the only program to have that happen to them. They are still playing up 1 class to their natural enrollment and you haven't heard me complain about it one time.

What an outstanding hill to die on Muda.

So a true system of promotion and relegation would have no real affect on an outstanding, national level football program like Cathedral's.    Thank you.

And I'm not dying on any hill.  Just promoting my ideas and opinions. 

 

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So a true system of promotion and relegation would have no real affect on an outstanding, national level football program like Cathedral's.    Thank you.

And I'm not dying on any hill.  Just promoting my ideas and opinions. 

 

I'm not thinking about Cathedral in the least when you talk about promotion and relegation. I'm talking about teams like South Adams who would be forced to play in a tournament with schools 10x their enrollment.

That ain't right.

[Robert]

23 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Thank you for the eloquent opinion Bobref.

A true system of promotion/relegation, taking enrollment entirely out of the equation,  is the fair and logical way to go.   My opinion on that has not wavered.

 

 

I don't think it would work because the kids are not there for long and are not hand picked.  I watched promotion/relegation in Colombia and Ecuador.  Whoever has the most money wins.  

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

I don't think it would work because the kids are not there for long and are not hand picked.  I watched promotion/relegation in Colombia and Ecuador.  Whoever has the most money wins.  

He's trying to replicate European soccer. What Muda is not taking into consideration is that when teams are promoted at the professional level, they are allocated more funds to go out and "buy" newer and better players to be able to compete against better teams. That isn't feasible in high school athletics and why a "true system of promotion/relegation" is one of the more profoundly dumb arguments on this site. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Footballking16

[Muda69]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I'm not thinking about Cathedral in the least when you talk about promotion and relegation. I'm talking about teams like South Adams who would be forced to play in a tournament with schools 10x their enrollment.

That ain't right.

So what is the correct 'x' factor when it comes to enrollment?  Apparently it is ok for a Cathedral to play in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment but not 10x?

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

I don't think it would work because the kids are not there for long and are not hand picked.  I watched promotion/relegation in Colombia and Ecuador.  Whoever has the most money wins.  

And in Indiana high school football whoever invests the long-term resources into building a lasting and successful program usually wins.  Why should they not be rewarded by playing similar schools with similar goals?

[Muda69]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

He's trying to replicate European soccer.

No, I'm not.

Just recognizing that a primarily-enrollment based system doesn't work, and creates too much competitive imbalance regarding the state tournament.   And so I'm putting forth a reasonable alternative.

 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

So what is the correct 'x' factor when it comes to enrollment?  Apparently it is ok for a Cathedral to play in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment but not 10x?

Cathedral has never played in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment. They currently play in a tournament where the largest school has 800 more students. 

Cathedral is an outlier in this whole thing. That is why the success factor exists, to promote schools up a class who have sustained success in their enrollment based-class.

[Muda69]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral has never played in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment. They currently play in a tournament where the largest school has 800 more students. 

Cathedral is an outlier in this whole thing. That is why the success factor exists, to promote schools up a class who have sustained success in their enrollment based-class.

So you would vote against Cathedral competing in the current 6A enrollment tournament?  Are you saying they could not compete?