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Multiplier vs Success Factor - Multiplier is the Pure Choice


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2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I already answered your question. Cathedral is an OUTLIER. That's why they are playing up a class. Just because Cathedral (an outlier) can punch above their weight, doesn't mean every other team can. That's why the success factor exists. I can't dumb this down anymore.

So only Cathedral gets the opportunities to be an "OUTLIER"?  Why can't the likes of South Adams get that sort of shot?

 

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2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So only Cathedral gets the opportunities to be an "OUTLIER"?  Why can't the likes of South Adams get that sort of shot?

 

Has South Adams ever been bumped up due to the success factor? If South Adams can't get bumped from 1A under the current format, how in the hell do you expect/think it's fair they compete in a tournament with the likes of Penn, Noblesville, and Southport?

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3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I totally get that. But you're going to kill off the rooting interest of Indiana high school doing it this way. You're going to be crowing 2-3 state champions a year who have no business being in a postseason tournament to begin with and you're going to completely water down the level of play and excitement. Teams like Dwenger and Chatard are usually good enough to be in the top 32 of Sagarin and would play in the best tournament, but they would have no virtual shot of winning a title due to numbers. It's not fair to either of those successful schools.

Classifications are based on enrollment for a reason. Obviously there are some teams who are vastly better than others of similar size, and the ones that are get promoted to the next level. It's the fairest and most practical way to keep competitive balance alive. 

Please explain this numbers argument.  Chatard brings say 45-50 to the sideline, Carmel being a mega school brings what, 400?  Come now.........................

And you haven't really logically explained that reason, yet.

 

 

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Has South Adams ever been bumped up due to the success factor? If South Adams can't get bumped from 1A under the current format, how in the hell do you expect/think it's fair they compete in a tournament with the likes of Penn, Noblesville, and Southport?

Because the size of the school in the end analysis really isn't that important,  that's why.  I believe it to be more like a bell curve in terms of competitive advantage, not exponential like you seem to believe.  Unless your are an OUTLIER of course............

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TIFootball said:

You are correct. I think they CHOOSE not to seed based on how the pairings come out historically (disrupts the ping pong balls :) ). What I'm discussing is how can we change the entire system to have more competitive play.

I fail to see how your idea would be more competitive. You're plan encourages tanking to get into a lower tier tournament. If school A knows it has no shot against the top 2A teams because it is ranked 63 in the class, but has a shut at winning a 1a title against teams of similar caliber, why not lose the last 2 regular season games.

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4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Please explain this numbers argument.  Chatard brings say 45-50 to the sideline, Carmel being a mega school brings what, 400?  Come now.........................

And you haven't really logically explained that reason, yet.

You can only bring X amount of players to the sidelines for a tournament game (or at least that was the rule 10 or so years ago when I played), and that number was 75. While Chatard can bring 75 to the sidelines, they're only picking from a pool 350 boys. Whereas, say a school like Carmel can bring 75 to the table but they're choosing from 2,000 boys, and Chatard punches above their weight every year and are still at a huge disadvantage.

Now do this with a school like South Adams whom I'm willing to bet doesn't even have 75 boys in their entire program to begin with, expecting them to go up against a school like Penn who could field 2 varsity teams if they wanted too. How in the hell do you not see the difference there? South Adams should have to play in a tournament with a team like Penn because they're better than a team like Springs Valley? This is the single dumbest argument on the GID.

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24 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Because the size of the school in the end analysis really isn't that important,  that's why.  I believe it to be more like a bell curve in terms of competitive advantage, not exponential like you seem to believe.  Unless your are an OUTLIER of course............

Look at Sagarin. Obviously there are outliers (and that's why the success factor exists) but there's a reason why the large majority of the teams rated at the top of Sagarin are the largest enrollment schools and a reason why the large majority of the teams rated at the bottom of Sagarin are the smallest enrollment schools, and it's because NUMBERS MATTER.

Yes you'll see outliers like Chatard, Cathedral, Brebeuf, etc at the top punching above their weight, just like you'll see some 4A schools like Frankfort or Shelbyville near the bottom, but if you scan the ratings from 1-320, you'll notice on average it's accurately reflected based on enrollment.

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2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Has South Adams ever been bumped up due to the success factor? If South Adams can't get bumped from 1A under the current format, how in the hell do you expect/think it's fair they compete in a tournament with the likes of Penn, Noblesville, and Southport?

I believe that South Adams got bumped a few years ago after they won sectional and the next year a regional, but that may have been due to enrollment. South Adams did win a sectional after upsetting number 1 ranked Woodlan in 2A. But 2A and maybe 3A is South Adams' ceiling, and that's competing for sectionals, forget about going for state titles. 

 

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Please explain this numbers argument.  Chatard brings say 45-50 to the sideline, Carmel being a mega school brings what, 400?  Come now.........................

And you haven't really logically explained that reason, yet.

 

 

Because the size of the school in the end analysis really isn't that important,  that's why.  I believe it to be more like a bell curve in terms of competitive advantage, not exponential like you seem to believe.  Unless your are an OUTLIER of course............

 

 

 

Size of school is a huge factor, and the fact that you don't understand it shows that you don't know anything about small school football. 

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Mudaaaaaaaaa. Muddddddddddddaaaaa. What would you do without all your P/Ps?!? The unfairness of it all. Can’t we just put the P/Ps in their own division so none of the lowly publics have to deal with all the inequities of the system. The IHSAA needs more equality, Mudaaaa. I, for one, am disgusted. This darn multiplier is just not enough to penalize the imperialistic private/parochials. 

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4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You can only bring X amount of players to the sidelines for a tournament game (or at least that was the rule 10 or so years ago when I played), and that number was 75. While Chatard can bring 75 to the sidelines, they're only picking from a pool 350 boys. Whereas, say a school like Carmel can bring 75 to the table but they're choosing from 2,000 boys, and Chatard punches above their weight every year and are still at a huge disadvantage.

Now do this with a school like South Adams whom I'm willing to bet doesn't even have 75 boys in their entire program to begin with, expecting them to go up against a school like Penn who could field 2 varsity teams if they wanted too. How in the hell do you not see the difference there? South Adams should have to play in a tournament with a team like Penn because they're better than a team like Springs Valley? This is the single dumbest argument on the GID.

48 on the roster and that’s one of the best I’ve ever seen. And that’s out of at best 180 boys, which the number is probably less because some recent grades haven’t had as many boys. 

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4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You can only bring X amount of players to the sidelines for a tournament game (or at least that was the rule 10 or so years ago when I played), and that number was 75. While Chatard can bring 75 to the sidelines, they're only picking from a pool 350 boys. Whereas, say a school like Carmel can bring 75 to the table but they're choosing from 2,000 boys, and Chatard punches above their weight every year and are still at a huge disadvantage.

Now do this with a school like South Adams whom I'm willing to bet doesn't even have 75 boys in their entire program to begin with, expecting them to go up against a school like Penn who could field 2 varsity teams if they wanted too. How in the hell do you not see the difference there? South Adams should have to play in a tournament with a team like Penn because they're better than a team like Springs Valley? This is the single dumbest argument on the GID.

48 on the roster and that’s one of the best I’ve ever seen. And that’s out of at best 180 boys, which the number is probably less because some recent grades haven’t had as many boys. 

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1 hour ago, Thor77 said:

48 on the roster and that’s one of the best I’ve ever seen. And that’s out of at best 180 boys, which the number is probably less because some recent grades haven’t had as many boys. 

I’m also guessing that’s 9-12 correct? 48 in the whole program, freshman dress varsity?

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12 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Mudaaaaaaaaa. Muddddddddddddaaaaa. What would you do without all your P/Ps?!? The unfairness of it all. Can’t we just put the P/Ps in their own division so none of the lowly publics have to deal with all the inequities of the system. The IHSAA needs more equality, Mudaaaa. I, for one, am disgusted. This darn multiplier is just not enough to penalize the imperialistic private/parochials. 

If you would have actually read this thread I have not advocated for a multiplier, but a system of relegation/promotion.

 

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16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes you'll see outliers like Chatard, Cathedral, Brebeuf, etc at the top punching above their weight, 

They just need to develop more government school programs "punching above their weight".   I still don't believe NUMBERS is a big of factor as you make it out to be.

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45 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

They just need to develop more government school programs "punching above their weight".   I still don't believe NUMBERS is a big of factor as you make it out to be.

At small schools, there's nothing to develop if you don't happen to have at least some talent. South Adams ebs and flows as a program because some years the talent just isn't there. You can develop a good program from youth through high school, but sometimes the talent simply isn't there. You're more likely to pull that talent from 1000 kids rather than 300, which is why numbers matter. The Chatard's and Cathedral's are outliers because they are P/P, the school size is smaller, but they still have a large talent pool to work with in terms of bringing kids in. 

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8 hours ago, Thor77 said:

At small schools, there's nothing to develop if you don't happen to have at least some talent. South Adams ebs and flows as a program because some years the talent just isn't there. You can develop a good program from youth through high school, but sometimes the talent simply isn't there. You're more likely to pull that talent from 1000 kids rather than 300, which is why numbers matter. The Chatard's and Cathedral's are outliers because they are P/P, the school size is smaller, but they still have a large talent pool to work with in terms of bringing kids in. 

But why can't South Adams be an "outlier" like the Charard's and Cathedral's of Indiana?  With open enrollment and creative marketing South Adams could be the football factory of northeastern Indiana, right?

 

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39 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

But why can't South Adams be an "outlier" like the Charard's and Cathedral's of Indiana?  With open enrollment and creative marketing South Adams could be the football factory of northeastern Indiana, right?

 

No, your outliers are P/P schools that can recruit kids in a wider base, and that base is also Indianapolis. South Adams would have major violations for recruiting if it attempted that. 

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1 hour ago, Thor77 said:

No, your outliers are P/P schools that can recruit kids in a wider base, and that base is also Indianapolis. South Adams would have major violations for recruiting if it attempted that. 

Like a lot of people, you use the term “recruiting” like it’s a bad thing. Check the IHSAA bylaws. They don’t say anything about recruiting. They talk only about “undue influence.”

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On 10/16/2019 at 4:47 PM, itiswhatitis said:

His "daytime job" is math whiz.  You never question a math whiz.  Besides, it's way too complicated for inquiring minds to comprehend.

I happen to be an engineer with a PE degree and somewhat of a "math whiz" myself so I think I can muddle through it.  Not saying he is wrong but if the number is so "pure", it would seem reasonably easy to justify how it was derived as opposed to something pulled out of thin air.   I think I will be able to understand but maybe he can dumb it down a bit for me...or I can ask my 5th grader for help.

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16 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

I happen to be an engineer with a PE degree and somewhat of a "math whiz" myself so I think I can muddle through it.  Not saying he is wrong but if the number is so "pure", it would seem reasonably easy to justify how it was derived as opposed to something pulled out of thin air.   I think I will be able to understand but maybe he can dumb it down a bit for me...or I can ask my 5th grader for help.

Good grief, it was a joke!  

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17 hours ago, Bobref said:

Like a lot of people, you use the term “recruiting” like it’s a bad thing. Check the IHSAA bylaws. They don’t say anything about recruiting. They talk only about “undue influence.”

Might be time for a primer on that again, Bob.  My guess is that the word “recruiting” is used so flippantly (and I have done it as well) that the distinction is lost on many members....if not most.   Lots of folks just flow through here with their sons and aren’t even aware before they are gone.  

TA quite often used to emphasize that distinction and remind us.

After learning that one of the most senior members here last week wasn’t aware that EVERY Indiana school now has open enrollment, it struck me that Its mistaken to make even the most basic assumptions regarding what facts people might be knowledgeable of when it comes to discussions here.

If it’s not obvious, being knowledgeable has certainly never swayed me from opening my beer hole...

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