11 man substitution

[Whiting89]

do you think he was making stuff up or do you think an official told him this? My research indicates there is nothing wrong with what nd did can an official confirm this is a legit play?
https://sports.yahoo.com/kirby-smart-complains-about-officials-allowing-notre-dames-11-man-substitution-on-critical-sugar-bowl-play-031323798.html

[Bobref]

I don’t consider myself an expert on NCAA rules, but I looked this one up. Rule 3-5-1 says “Any number of legal substitutes for either team may enter the game … during the interval between downs … The defense then has the opportunity to “match up” before the ball can be snapped.

[JustRules]

Never believe anything you read from coaches or the media when talking about rules. This was NEVER about 11 on and 11 off. If that's what Coach Smart thought was the issue in 2017, he is completely wrong. The actual issue is players leaving the field and returning during the same dead ball period or substitutes entering and then leaving during the same dead ball period.

This is one of those things that's a foul in both NFHS and NCAA rules, but in most cases, it's hard to keep track of which players and leave and enter on each dead ball. It's much more obvious in a situation like this. It's still rarely called though, especially now with the substitution match-up rule in NCAA. I've learned this week the B1G/MAC supervisors have told their crews not to call it in a situation like this, but the SEC. In that regards, Coach Smart was correct in his statements. He's the co-chair of the NCAA rules committee so he should know it better than he does, but this is something that comes up rarely.

This very specific play though was not an issue with this rule however. The reason is because there was an officials time out for replay review. That means anyone that enters the field after the review can become replaced players. There was a review so that's why the crew would not have a flag here even if they were enforcing the rule as written. That's an example of subtlety I wouldn't expect a coach to know. 

When situations like this happen, it's likely to be a point of discussion with the rules committee. If nothing else they need to get the conferences on the same page. I wouldn't be surprised to see the NCAA drop the rule entirely since the substitution match-up rule make it obsolete. If Notre Dame had done it too late in the play clock and the play clock expired while Georgia was matching up, that would be a delay of game foul on the offense. You'll notice the U stayed on the snapper telling him he couldn't legally snap it, but backed away with plenty of time left on the play clock.

[Huge Football Fan]

On 1/4/2025 at 11:03 PM, JustRules said:

Never believe anything you read from coaches or the media when talking about rules. This was NEVER about 11 on and 11 off. If that's what Coach Smart thought was the issue in 2017, he is completely wrong. The actual issue is players leaving the field and returning during the same dead ball period or substitutes entering and then leaving during the same dead ball period.

This is one of those things that's a foul in both NFHS and NCAA rules, but in most cases, it's hard to keep track of which players and leave and enter on each dead ball. It's much more obvious in a situation like this. It's still rarely called though, especially now with the substitution match-up rule in NCAA. I've learned this week the B1G/MAC supervisors have told their crews not to call it in a situation like this, but the SEC. In that regards, Coach Smart was correct in his statements. He's the co-chair of the NCAA rules committee so he should know it better than he does, but this is something that comes up rarely.

This very specific play though was not an issue with this rule however. The reason is because there was an officials time out for replay review. That means anyone that enters the field after the review can become replaced players. There was a review so that's why the crew would not have a flag here even if they were enforcing the rule as written. That's an example of subtlety I wouldn't expect a coach to know. 

When situations like this happen, it's likely to be a point of discussion with the rules committee. If nothing else they need to get the conferences on the same page. I wouldn't be surprised to see the NCAA drop the rule entirely since the substitution match-up rule make it obsolete. If Notre Dame had done it too late in the play clock and the play clock expired while Georgia was matching up, that would be a delay of game foul on the offense. You'll notice the U stayed on the snapper telling him he couldn't legally snap it, but backed away with plenty of time left on the play clock.

What Kirby said was true, it just didnt happen in this situation. I can understand what he means but with the review inbetween he doesnt really have a case but I understand what he means. The offense leaves the field, but then they have a stoppage. Now everything is reset. The run the kicking team off and the offense on. Legal because of the stoppage.

[JustRules]

On 1/6/2025 at 3:12 PM, Huge Football Fan said:

What Kirby said was true, it just didnt happen in this situation. I can understand what he means but with the review inbetween he doesnt really have a case but I understand what he means. The offense leaves the field, but then they have a stoppage. Now everything is reset. The run the kicking team off and the offense on. Legal because of the stoppage.

It's not unusual for coaches to ask a specific question to get a specific answer and then not realize the nuance of a similar situation that has a different ruling because of something that changes.

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, JustRules said:

It's not unusual for coaches to ask a specific question to get a specific answer and then not realize the nuance of a similar situation that has a different ruling because of something that changes.

You mean Kirby (Not so) Smart.

[JustRules]

On 1/14/2025 at 11:13 PM, Bobref said:

You mean Kirby (Not so) Smart.

The part he did have right is you can't leave and return during the same dead ball period or enter and leave. That applies to one player or 11 players. When he was called for it in 2017, he probably subbed all 11 players and then had them return and thought the 11 players was the issue. He should know better though because he's the co-chair of the NCAA rules committee!

[oldtimeqb]

On 1/16/2025 at 12:56 PM, JustRules said:

The part he did have right is you can't leave and return during the same dead ball period or enter and leave. That applies to one player or 11 players. 

 I would think a HS crew would catch this, but alas it doesn't always happen. 

 

[JustRules]

4 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

 I would think a HS crew would catch this, but alas it doesn't always happen. 

 

It's hard to keep track of specific players who leave or enter. We have several responsibilities during dead ball period and aren't always going to see substitutions let alone remember who did it. It's easier to do when it's a full substitution like a kicking team coming on and then off or someone like a QB.