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HSFBFan64

Indiana Big School Enrollments - Carmel enrollment numbers are vulgar

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Look at this snip of high schools in the Columbus, Ohio area (the Ohio Capital Conference)! C-bus and Indy are very similar in how they grew and in the size of townships and suburbs that surround the city proper. Do you see ANY schools with 5,000+ enrollments. This is not the full snip, but you get the gist? These schools are still very competitive and their teams, despite the split-up of the suburbs' school districts, go pretty deep in the state tournament brackets among various sports. I know consolidation is economically viable, but Indiana has at least ten to twelve high schools larger than any Ohio high school, and Ohio has nearly 4.5M more people, and a crummier funding system (millage) than Indiana has. I believe even the two HSE high schools (who get the split-up thing) have larger enrollments than any high school in Ohio. I believe this will not change things in Indiana, but it makes you realize how vulgar Carmel's enrollment looks when you see these schools, among even smaller suburbs than Carmel, handled their growth. Love to hear your thoughts. No opinion is wrong.

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Edited by HSFBFan64

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33 minutes ago, HSFBFan64 said:

. . . but it makes you realize how vulgar Carmel's enrollment looks when you see these schools . . .

Really curious word choice here. I'm not sure what description you are trying to apply to Carmel, but "vulgar" doesn't make much sense in this context. Maybe I'm missing something.

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I know it was the case years ago, but I believe Ohio still has caps on enrollment. Once a school reaches a certain number, adding an additional school is required. Maybe someone from Ohio could clarify?

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12 minutes ago, Bullhorn99 said:

Really curious word choice here. I'm not sure what description you are trying to apply to Carmel, but "vulgar" doesn't make much sense in this context. Maybe I'm missing something.

Since we are talking numbers, perhaps "prodigious" is a better word. Now, Imelda Marcos's shoe collection was... vulgar... beyond prodigious. Thanks.

Edited by HSFBFan64
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I grew up in Ohio. Mentor was usually the biggest single high school in the state (I believe Mason is the largest now), but it has never spun off other schools. Schools in Dublin, Westerville, Hilliard, Grove City and Pickerington had far fewer students than Mentor, as did Worthington when they added high schools. Perhaps it was based on the caps you mentioned, proactively looking at projected increases from elementary/MS enrollments that were a harbinger to an upcoming cap. Who knows.

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It's there prerogative to have the one high school or multiple high schools. I doubt athletic success is a major factor. Even if they had 2 schools I'm sure both would be extremely competitive in most sports. The drawback is fewer students get an opportunity to compete at the varsity level. There is only 1 starting QB, 1 starting PG, 1 leadoff hitter, 1 #1 singles tennis player. They have several swimmers who would qualify for state at other schools, but can't get into the varsity heats for Carmel. I'm not a huge fan of forcing districts to split into multiple schools. That should be a local decision.

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6 hours ago, HSFBFan64 said:

I grew up in Ohio. Mentor was usually the biggest single high school in the state (I believe Mason is the largest now), but it has never spun off other schools. Schools in Dublin, Westerville, Hilliard, Grove City and Pickerington had far fewer students than Mentor, as did Worthington when they added high schools. Perhaps it was based on the caps you mentioned, proactively looking at projected increases from elementary/MS enrollments that were a harbinger to an upcoming cap. Who knows.

I believe the largest school in Ohio is currently West Claremont..(?) 

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It looks like Amelia and Glen Este merger to form this new school. Four-grade enrollment is 2600. Other enrollments in ohsaa use grade 9-11 enrollment and split it between boys and girls. Mason has around 3500 high school students in four grades. 

Rule of thumb, if it’s IHSAA add boys plus girls and divide by .77 (consider some upper class attrition instead of dividing by .75). Just a wag. 

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5 hours ago, HSFBFan64 said:

It looks like Amelia and Glen Este merger to form this new school. Four-grade enrollment is 2600. Other enrollments in ohsaa use grade 9-11 enrollment and split it between boys and girls. Mason has around 3500 high school students in four grades. 

Rule of thumb, if it’s IHSAA add boys plus girls and divide by .77 (consider some upper class attrition instead of dividing by .75). Just a wag. 

...or just use the actual DOE data.

 

I am from SW Ohio. If Lakota HS hadn't split into East and West a number of years back it would be over 5k now. 

oct_hdcnt_fy19.xls

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6 hours ago, DK_Barons said:

...or just use the actual DOE data.

 

I am from SW Ohio. If Lakota HS hadn't split into East and West a number of years back it would be over 5k now. 

oct_hdcnt_fy19.xls

They’ve (West) experienced growth since the 90s. I was at WPAFB 88-92. Butler County was growing back then too. Wasn’t shocked when I saw a Lakota East HS. 

Edited by HSFBFan64

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Just Rules is correct. Carmel, similar to some Columbus suburban schools, would have just as much talent among two or three high schools if they split. The splits in Columbus have not decreased their competitiveness. My enrollment beef is not about unfair competition. It's about 5,000 kids and one point guard much like Just Rules mentioned.

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4 hours ago, HSFBFan64 said:

Just Rules is correct. Carmel, similar to some Columbus suburban schools, would have just as much talent among two or three high schools if they split. The splits in Columbus have not decreased their competitiveness. My enrollment beef is not about unfair competition. It's about 5,000 kids and one point guard much like Just Rules mentioned.

Not necessarily true.  Hilliard Davidson used to be a big school multi year state champion.  Hilliard Darby is also in the same town.  Now Hilliard Bradley opened 5 years ago, and Bradley has eclipsed Davidson as the top football program in the community

Definitely a change in overall competitiveness when Bradley came into the picture and built their program from the ground up.  

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1 hour ago, DT said:

Not necessarily true.  Hilliard Davidson used to be a big school multi year state champion.  Hilliard Darby is also in the same town.  Now Hilliard Bradley opened 5 years ago, and Bradley has eclipsed Davidson as the top football program in the community

Definitely a change in overall competitiveness when Bradley came into the picture and built their program from the ground up.  

That's.... a stretch. Per MaxPreps website

Last 10 years:

Bradley record 64 - 42 (60.4% winning percentage)

Davidson record 101- 24 (80.8% winning percentage)

Last 5 years:

Bradley record 42 - 14 (75.0% winning percentage)

Davidson record 42 - 17 (71.2% winning percentage)

While Bradley has certainly gotten better and had a heck of a 3 year run, it's not like Davidson is doing THAT much worse. For what it's worth, Davidson advanced further in the OHSAA playoffs this year AND defeated Bradley this season 17-10.

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2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

That's.... a stretch. Per MaxPreps website

Last 10 years:

Bradley record 64 - 42 (60.4% winning percentage)

Davidson record 101- 24 (80.8% winning percentage)

Last 5 years:

Bradley record 42 - 14 (75.0% winning percentage)

Davidson record 42 - 17 (71.2% winning percentage)

While Bradley has certainly gotten better and had a heck of a 3 year run, it's not like Davidson is doing THAT much worse. For what it's worth, Davidson advanced further in the OHSAA playoffs this year AND defeated Bradley this season 17-10.

Good research! C-bus suburbs like Pickerington, Westerville, Hilliard, Dublin, Olentangy and Grove City have programs that make the football playoffs (top 8 in the region, not all inclusive). The district is still well-represented among its varying schools. This was one of my points for splitting a mega school that others actually articulated better than I did in my original rants.

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Carmel with over 5000 students versus Valpo  with 2000 in 6a 2018 semi state ...score 14-10....is this really a fair system???? At what point does Indiana have to recognize the obvious about the numbers......i dont understand how this is justified by anyone

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8 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

That's.... a stretch. Per MaxPreps website

Last 10 years:

Bradley record 64 - 42 (60.4% winning percentage)

Davidson record 101- 24 (80.8% winning percentage)

Last 5 years:

Bradley record 42 - 14 (75.0% winning percentage)

Davidson record 42 - 17 (71.2% winning percentage)

While Bradley has certainly gotten better and had a heck of a 3 year run, it's not like Davidson is doing THAT much worse. For what it's worth, Davidson advanced further in the OHSAA playoffs this year AND defeated Bradley this season 17-10.

Davidson is an "historic" Ohio high school football program.  The fact that Bradley has caught up to them in such a short amount of time is incredibly impressive, in my view.  

Note that Bradley did fall to defending state champ Pickerington Central early in the tournament.  Both programs should remain very competitive for some time.  The Davidson district has less room for growth than does Bradley, hence more potential upside for Bradley.  Darby is pretty decent as well.

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I don't understand why the members of the communities where these mega schools exist continue to allow them to exist.  Reminds me of a song............

I take my card and I stand in line
To make a buck I work overtime
Dear sir letters keep comin' in the mail
I work my back till it's racked with pain
The boss can't even recall my name
I show up late and I'm docked, it never fails
I feel like just another, spoke in a great big wheel
Like a tiny blade of grass in a great big field
To workers I'm just another drone
To Ma Bell I'm just another phone
I'm just another statistic on a sheet
To teachers I'm just another child
To IRS I'm another file
I'm just another consensus on the street
Gonna cruise outta this city, head down to the sea
Gonna shout out at the ocean, hey it's me
And I feel like a number, feel like a number
Feel like a stranger
A stranger in this land, I feel like a number
I'm not a number, I'm not a number
Damn it I'm a man, I said I'm a man
Gonna cruise out of this city, head down to the sea
Gonna shout out at the ocean, hey it's me
And I feel like a number, feel like a number
Feel like a stranger
Stranger in this land, feel like a number
I'm not a number, I'm not a number
Damn it I'm a man, I feel like a number
Feel like a number, feel like a number
I feel like a... I feel... feel like a... feel like a
I feel like a... I feel like a ...I feel like a... I feel like a

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There are some advantages to having so many on one campus; speaking strictly of academics. These schools are able to offer a much wider variety of courses for students. The only time I ever really noticed the large class size was honestly at graduation. We had close to 800 in our class. I never felt any of my classes were overcrowded. Having friends teach in these schools now, the same can be said. It may be limiting for athletics in these schools. I have said for a LONG time and still believe that the hesitation in splitting schools, at least in Central Indiana, goes back to the time when Lawrence Township split into 2 schools. That said, the HSE split was unusual, with Fishers going to a State championship in a very short time. To me, it shows just how much talent was in HSE prior to the split. I will say it was the best decision that Fishers made.

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2 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I have said for a LONG time and still believe that the hesitation in splitting schools, at least in Central Indiana, goes back to the time when Lawrence Township split into 2 schools. 

Why was this such a bad decision for Lawrence Township? I'm not aware of this history here.

 

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40 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Why was this such a bad decision for Lawrence Township? I'm not aware of this history here.

 

I apologize for not being more clear. It likely was not a bad decision for them. I do feel that many saw the struggles the athletic programs went through for so long was a factor in choosing to not split.

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12 hours ago, DT said:

Davidson is an "historic" Ohio high school football program.  The fact that Bradley has caught up to them in such a short amount of time is incredibly impressive, in my view.  

Note that Bradley did fall to defending state champ Pickerington Central early in the tournament.  Both programs should remain very competitive for some time.  The Davidson district has less room for growth than does Bradley, hence more potential upside for Bradley.  Darby is pretty decent as well.

This is incredibly impressive, but is it truly unexpected? I think that's the main point of the argument here. If Carmel were to split into 2 high schools, would it there really be a decrease in either of those schools competitiveness? The fact that Bradley and Davidson are still both extremely competitive is a successful example as to why this kind of thing should happen in Indiana. At least, that is how I understood it.

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24 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

This is incredibly impressive, but is it truly unexpected? I think that's the main point of the argument here. If Carmel were to split into 2 high schools, would it there really be a decrease in either of those schools competitiveness? The fact that Bradley and Davidson are still both extremely competitive is a successful example as to why this kind of thing should happen in Indiana. At least, that is how I understood it.

Fishers and HSE have both had sustained success sin ce fishers opened 15 years ago.   There is talk of a third high school now opening in that district.  What impact will that have on the two other schools, which are both in a bit of a down cycle now?

Davidson remains strong, but they are not the statewide power they used to be.   Bradley has had more talent the past few years and the better overall record and performance.  

Edited by DT

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4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Why was this such a bad decision for Lawrence Township? I'm not aware of this history here.

 

Sometimes, when a school splits, the "old" school gets eclipsed by the new one athletically OR there's a perception that it dilutes the talent pool enough that it prevents a school from being as good as it once was. 

For many years, the newer LN was far stronger athletically than the older LC, although the Bears have had the upper hand of late, with state titles in both football and baseball this century. Growing up in the 1980s & 1990s, LN was perceived as a really strong suburban school serving the very popular, rapidly-growing Castleton area and had a similar reputation as first-ring suburban schools (say, Carmel/HSE/Fishers/Brownsburg/Zionsville) have today. 

With regards to Carmel, they've been stockpiling swimming state championships. Their swim team often has people who could qualify for the State Finals who can't even crack the varsity roster because they're so deep. There are a LOT of really good athletes who could compete at a varsity level virtually anywhere in the state who can't even make the team there. If Carmel were to split, the new school would likely serve the western half of the district, which is the wealthier, more suburban part of the area. Not sure if that's the source of Carmel's best athletes, but some oldtimers in town wouldn't want the old school to be eclipsed by the new one. 

 

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People often think of LN as a weak MIC conference team because their football team has struggled. Their football team is still pretty good. It's just hard to overcome in the MIC. I believe they have around 17 sports and typically win sectional in 8-12 sports each year. Their athletic programs are doing just fine overall.

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On 2/6/2019 at 1:22 PM, DT said:

Fishers and HSE have both had sustained success sin ce fishers opened 15 years ago.   There is talk of a third high school now opening in that district.  What impact will that have on the two other schools, which are both in a bit of a down cycle now?

Davidson remains strong, but they are not the statewide power they used to be.   Bradley has had more talent the past few years and the better overall record and performance.  

Where would the third school be that you are talking about? 

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