Sorry 3A Teams...

[Muda69]

4 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Can you elaborate? 

Both DT and myself and elaborated on this topic many times, ad nauseam.   In fact DT has a nice enumerated list in a recent thread,  go find it.

 

[gonzoron]

Just now, Muda69 said:

ad nauseam

Correct.

[hhpatriot04]

Just now, Muda69 said:

Both DT and myself and elaborated on this topic many times, ad nauseam.   In fact DT has a nice enumerated list in a recent thread,  go find it.

 

You made the comment. Back it up. We don't get legacy status... 

[Muda69]

6 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

You made the comment. Back it up. We don't get legacy status... 

 

[Lysander]

23 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

 

That was DT’s list of traits/values associated with the “P/P mentality”......NOT the type of kids that go to a P/P.  

With the exception of his mention of faith/religion (possibly including it), his “P/P mentality” list could be applied to a bunch of solid public programs (New Pal, East Central, CE, Lawrenceburg, HH, GS, SR.........I could go on and on) that show up every year at this time of the year.

Its nothing more than the traditional values/traits we have historically attributed to any great program in any sport.  It’s not isolated solely to P/Ps (if it is, then HS sports is in a world of hurt).

I didn’t call out DT at the time even I thought it was a BS distinction and an insult to good public programs.

Where is DT anyway?  Figured this would be catnip to him.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Lysander

[Footballking16]

16 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Where is DT anyway?  Figured this would be catnip to him

You can only start so many threads about contraction. Seeing as many of those programs have been eliminated for the remainder of the season, well, it's DT's offseason too.

[foxbat]

25 minutes ago, Lysander said:

 

With the exception of his mention of faith/religion (possibly including it), his “P/P mentality” list could be applied to a bunch of solid public programs (New Pal, East Central, CE, Lawrenceburg, HH, GS, SR.........I could go on and on) that show up every year at this time of the year.

 

From my experience, it's probably including it.  Have known many kids who started education at the Catholic/Christian schools and finished at the public schools, a much more common activity than many might realize, while still being very strong in living and practicing their faith ... including my oldest two kids. 

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

That was DT’s list of traits/values associated with the “P/P mentality”......NOT the type of kids that go to a P/P.  

With the exception of his mention of faith/religion (possibly including it), his “P/P mentality” list could be applied to a bunch of solid public programs (New Pal, East Central, CE, Lawrenceburg, HH, GS, SR.........I could go on and on) that show up every year at this time of the year.

Its nothing more than the traditional values/traits we have historically attributed to any great program in any sport.  It’s not isolated solely to P/Ps (if it is, then HS sports is in a world of hurt).

I didn’t call out DT at the time even I thought it was a BS distinction and an insult to good public programs.

Where is DT anyway?  Figured this would be catnip to him.

I'm in Florida on temporary hiatus.  The tournament is rather lackluster.   Has there been a single upset of significance where a big darkhorse toppled an overwhelming favorite?   I haven't seen it

I'd love to see Center Grove vs Merrillville and New Pal vs Valpo in the finals.   Would also love to see Hobart and Andrean make it to Indy.  Perhaps Region football is still alive afterall.  

 

[Lysander]

12 minutes ago, DT said:

I'm in Florida on temporary hiatus.  The tournament is rather lackluster.   Has there been a single upset of significance where a big darkhorse toppled an overwhelming favorite?   I haven't seen it

I'd love to see Center Grove vs Merrillville and New Pal vs Valpo in the finals.   Would also love to see Hobart and Andrean make it to Indy.  Perhaps Region football is still alive afterall.  

 

I don’t agree it’s lackluster (I enjoy the tournament like kids enjoy Christmas - just because it exists) but I do generally agree about your other points.

It would certainly be refreshing to see a State Champion in the top 2 classes come out of North Central or Northwest Indiana (and I don’t mean this as a “dig”, I am serious).  Ft. Wayne has already represented well for Northeast Indiana.

That said, enjoy Florida.  I am digging out of snow.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Lysander

[Footballking16]

53 minutes ago, DT said:

Has there been a single upset of significance where a big darkhorse toppled an overwhelming favorite?

Zionsville over Brownsburg was a pretty big upset.

But in all-honesty, how do you expect big upsets when some of the best teams knock each other out in the first or second round every year?

[Lysander]

31 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Zionsville over Brownsburg was a pretty big upset.

But in all-honesty, how do you expect big upsets when some of the best teams knock each other out in the first or second round every year?

I stand corrected.   
 

Monster upset......literally tournament changing.  Honestly, just never thought a Zionsville team could pull off that type of upset.

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, DT said:

I'm in Florida on temporary hiatus.  The tournament is rather lackluster.   Has there been a single upset of significance where a big darkhorse toppled an overwhelming favorite?   I haven't seen it

I'd love to see Center Grove vs Merrillville and New Pal vs Valpo in the finals.   Would also love to see Hobart and Andrean make it to Indy.  Perhaps Region football is still alive afterall.  

 

Unranked Northfield knocked off #3 Southwood in 1A.  Sagarin ratings indicate that game should have been a three-TD Southwood victory.

[Titan32]

5 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

You made the comment. Back it up. We don't get legacy status... 

Chris, you are being a little hard on him.  We all know that with 10k-15k a year in Indiana for tuition at a P&P by default the "quality" of student-athlete is generally going to be "higher", for lack of a better word, than the equivalent sized public.  Take for example a GS or HH who probably has some of the lowest free and assisted lunch in the state by percentage of the student body in 3A for publics.  Even with that, GS and HH simply won't have the same number of quality student-athletes walking the halls as their p&p counterparts by the percentage of enrollment (with the exception of some generational aboratinon).  Anyone who denies that is simply hiding their head in the sand.  I can tell you that we have kids at GS who are only there because they have a pulse and the law says that they have to be (and we have much less than most other publics our size).  Again, "generally", folks who can make the sacrifice to send their kids to a P&P have certain qualities in common that I don't need to list here that are both "natured" and "nurtured" into their kids.  

Does this quality "stock" always result in a strong tradition in any sport?  Certainly not, however, when the key variables are in place, the same variables that it takes to have success at a public in a given sport...ie, community, youth league, parent support, coaching etc., those variables are multiplied by a factor "x" across a deeper bench so to speak.

As I have mentioned before, as a case study in the SIAC,  Memorial vs Castle.  This P&P typically runs head to head with its public rival in terms of conference championships boys and girls.  This would indicate both schools have a similar bench depth across a wide variety of sports, boys, and girls.  Castle enrollment 1965,  Memorial enrollment 609.  Castle isn't exactly a district of struggling families.  Some pretty easy math even for a public educated kid can see the disparity here in the ratio there of total enrollment to quality student-athlete.  You see this all over the state.  What does it mean?  Does Memorial have better coaches?  Do memorial kids have a better work ethic?  Is it that the early poor immigrant Catholics into Southwestern Indiana were blue-collared people that instilled an incredible physical culture and work ethic over generations significantly impacting their ability to succeed in girls soccer?

There clearly are some public representatives on the GID that are advocates of "everything is fine" or perhaps that are even against the success factor.  Many of those seem to fall into one of a few buckets:  Those who have advanced in the state tournament over a p&p at some point in school history or public's that are geographically aligned in such a way that they get quality imports or perhaps in such a way that P&Ps aren't an issue in their path.  There will always be a subset with a certain machismo or the "put your head down and go to work" mentality that simply won't admit the above paradigm is simply a fact.  That is the nature of our sport and I wouldn't' change that for the world.  Those folks know it's true but the  "football guy" in them simply won't let admit that there are certain inherent advantages.  Reasonable, intelligent men and women can't debate on if a solution is necessary, if the one we have is adequate or if additional measures are needed at all.   I simply can't wrap my head around how any reasonable person on either side of these arguments can say P&Ps and public are equitably measured by enrollment alone.  Just simply say....sure they have advantages...but I don't care...I like the challenge.  That I can accept.

 

[tango]

14 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Chris, you are being a little hard on him.  We all know that with 10k-15k a year in Indiana for tuition at a P&P...

Nobody gets that kind of number down here.  We are $6,000 including all fees.  That might be what it runs up in Indy.  It has been a while since I looked at their numbers..

[Titan32]

7 minutes ago, tango said:

Nobody gets that kind of number down here.  We are $6,000 including all fees.  That might be what it runs up in Indy.  It has been a while since I looked at their numbers..

Fair enough:

Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School is a top rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 734 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 11 to 1. Tuition is $17,640 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 99% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

Bishop Chatard High School is a highly rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 714 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 14 to 1. Tuition is $12,580 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 89% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Titan32

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, tango said:

Nobody gets that kind of number down here.  We are $6,000 including all fees.  That might be what it runs up in Indy.  It has been a while since I looked at their numbers..

And, important factor, you pay teachers much better...magically, in Evansville!

Edited November 13, 2019 by Robert

[Lysander]

Just now, Robert said:

And, important factor, you pay teachers much better...magically!

?

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Lysander said:

?

I just find it interesting how the bishopric magically pays much more in Evansville than in the diocese with that golden shiny thing hanging around.

[Lysander]

Just now, Robert said:

I just find it interesting how the bishopric magically pays much more in Evansville than in the diocese with that golden shiny thing hanging around.

Sorry, not following any of this.

 

[Robert]

13 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Sorry, not following any of this.

 

That's okay.  I'm just throwing it into the tuition variances in differing parts of the state and why P/P kids are different than anyone else.  Uttering nonsense. 

[Lysander]

Just now, Robert said:

That's okay.  I'm just throwing it into the tuition variances in differing parts of the state and why P/P kids are different than anyone else.  Uttering nonsense. 

No problem.  I just wasn’t following.  

Did you mean teacher pay was more or less in public schools?  I just wasn’t sure which you meant.

Also, I wasn’t sure where or what the diocese was with the golden shiny thing and the reference to the “bishopric”.  I just wasn’t clear on the references.

Apologies....I’m just not clear.

[BendNotBreak]

On 11/11/2019 at 3:56 PM, George Orwell 2 said:

Here a post I made about 4 or 5 years ago.  

"I must say there have been a lot of intelligent statements made in this thread and for the most part I am impressed by the civility of the discussion.  Although the old public-p/p discussions (pre-Success Factor), were much more entertaining.  The difficulty in this debate is that the inherent advantages of private schools simply cannot easily be separated from the earned advantages of certain private schools.  Everyone recognizes that there are certain inherent advantages but everyone also recognizes that there are earned advantages that certain schools (many, but not all, private) have attained.   

Contrary to many views expressed on the forum, there aren’t one or two or even a few specific variables that one can point to which lead to long term, significant football success.  The fact is that the variables involved are so numerous and so complex that it is nearly impossible to identify all of them or to determine how much each lend to the success of the program.  In addition, some variables may lend more to the success of certain programs and other variables may lend more to the success of others.  Also, some variables are inherent in a community and others are developed over time. 

The attribute which has the most direct correlation with football success is enrollment size.  The size of the school has a stronger correlation with having a better football team than any other variable.  If you use Sagarin rankings as the measure of quality, larger schools, on average, are consistently ranked higher than smaller schools.  As we all know, although size matters, it isn’t necessarily the determining factor.  In fact, there are numerous variables which seem to have a correlation to football success but are not absolute determining factors.  How about simply being a private school? On the other hand, there are many private schools that are not very good at football at all.  What about being located in a densely populated area?  Once again, lots of schools located in densely populated areas aren’t very good.  The opposite is also true.  There are some very good rural programs.   Being Catholic versus other religious schools versus completely secular private high schools?  Same thing.  Some Catholic schools are good, some are not, some non-Catholic private schools are good, some are not.  There also seems to be consensus that average household income has some effect on success.  I don’t know if there are any studies on this but I question the significance of this variable.  My suspicion is that at some income levels the difference isn’t very significant.  For instance, the difference in the success effect between enrollment populations with very low average incomes as compared to slightly above average incomes is probably much greater than the difference between enrollment populations with average incomes versus above average incomes.  In fact, there is probably a point at which increasing income levels decreases football success as very high income households may dissuade their children from football participation.

Of course all of this begs the question as to why certain schools have achieved a level of dominance over the others?  I have read some posts which insist that the Catholic schools (or more correctly, the Catholic schools which are dominant) have better players than their private school counterparts.   For the sake of argument, let’s assume that that is true (at least at game time).  In fact, let’s assume that this is true of all schools which have experienced significant football success regardless of whether they are public or private.  Why is it that the athletes on the field would be better at one school of similar size than another?  The obvious answers are 1) a higher percentage of the population desires to play, 2) they start playing earlier, 3) they receive good instruction from a young age, and 4) the players develop a team oriented identity from an early age. 

When you get down to it, football (all sports really) is a math game.  The more students a school has to choose from, the more quality athletes will be in the pool.  Why does the German national soccer team beat the US national team every time they play?  The German national team has better players than the US national team.  Why?  The German national team has the 25 best athletes in the country on the team.  They started playing at a very young age.  They received good instruction from an early age, they developed a team oriented identity when they were very young, and they devoted themselves to soccer success.  The US national team doesn’t have the country’s best athletes on the team.  There are some very good athletes on the team; some that may be the top athletes in the country.  But not all of the best athletes in the US play soccer, nor do they get the same level of instruction as German youth players, etc.   

                So the first, and probably most important variable, is that every one of the good athletes in the community must have a strong desire to play football from an early age and to devote themselves to the success of their team.  Understand that this variable isn’t inherent in a Catholic school, a public school, a city school, a country school, a rich school, or a poor school.  This is a variable that is a by-product of the identity of the community. 

                Certain communities value football participation (and by extension, success) more than others.  The Indianapolis Catholic community (of course, there are others but this is the one of which I am most familiar) has taken great pride in their football success for generations.  Football was a sport that lent itself to the blue collar, mostly immigrant, and less sophisticated Catholic communities in the early part of the 20^th century.  At the time, football was a poor man’s sport.  It was tough and violent and there were a lot of serious injuries.  The type of activity that poor, uneducated immigrant kids and young adults would not be dissuaded from.  It just so happened that there were a lot of poor Catholic kids in Indianapolis at that time and a great many of them starting playing football.  That developed into football success and a certain pride what went with it.  In a community that had no other way to favorably compare themselves to the majority, athletic success, especially in football, became part of its identity.  The resulting pride in that success was passed down from generation to generation.  It became part of the culture of Catholic school education.  

Now, this history isn’t unique to the Catholic community.  There are other communities throughout the state, which are not necessarily Catholic, which have developed a “football culture.”  The fact, though, is that it takes generations (not years or even decades but generations) to develop the type of football culture that leads to dominance at the high school level.   But it is this “football culture” that most strongly drives the success of the community’s football programs. 

The result is that when teams like Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Cathedral, Andrean, LCC, etc. take the field, the 50 or 60 best athletes in the school are on the football team.  Not only that, but they have been preparing to play for the high school team for years before they even get there.  Most of the kids have played together for eight to ten years by the time they are seniors.  From the time they are in the 3^rd grade, the value of football success starts to be positively reinforced by the entire community.  What position do you play?  Did you win this weekend?  Congratulations on your city championship.  Subtle interactions like this with the adults in the community constantly reinforce the importance of football success.  (This isn’t to say that other things are not reinforced; academics, charity work, appropriate behavior, and participation in the church and school are all reinforced as well.  But when it comes to athletics, football is important in the Catholic community.  It’s just the way it is.)

That isn’t true for all schools where other sports such as basketball, soccer, baseball, etc. may draw athletes away from football.  That also isn’t true of schools where the community isn’t athletics focused or in communities where the students are expected to work at home or have other responsibilities.   The football culture is the single largest advantage that any school can have (excluding enrollment).  But there isn’t one variable that one can point to which defines it.  Some of the variables are inherent and some are earned.  But it is impossible to separate the variables that give one community a strong football culture and others not.   

Now, in my opinion, the most important manifestation of this culture is a very strong youth program.  The most direct relationship for success is the quality of the youth program in the community.  One can look at non-Catholic schools who are similar in size and circumstances to see the difference in success based on the quality of youth programs.  There is a reason that Indpls. North Central is consistently inferior to Warren Central.  Warren’s youth program is very good.  North Central’s is not.  I would bet that there are very few successful programs who do not have a well developed youth program.   

                Another aspect of football, in general, that is very difficult to explain but is probably inherent in football success is that, for some reason, football lends itself to dominance by small groups.  Look at past champions of NCAA Div II, Div III, NAIA, and even Division I to a lesser extent.  A small group of schools, usually around 10% – 20% win a significant majority of the championships.  This aspect of football seems to be inherent in the sport. 

What we will inevitably find is that the variables which lead to football success are many, varied, and non-linear.  Ultimately, the “system” which creates the success is extraordinarily complicated; much too complicated to accurately model.  Nassim Taleb, in his work, The Black Swan, spends considerable effort discussing the attempts by people (mostly economists) to model systems which are extremely complicated and are ultimately based on human behavior.  The one thing all of the models have in common is that they inevitably fail (see e.g.: financial crisis 2008).  I believe that Mr. Taleb would probably say that this system is simply too complex to attempt to model.  

                I can certainly see why the IHSAA would want to avoid the difficult discussions involved in attempting to parse out which variables should be used, and to what extent, to determine class realignment.  So, what we are left with is the success factor system.  All of the difficult variables (the causes) are eliminated and it is only the end result, regardless of how it is achieved, that is used to realign the classes.  Is it an honor or a punishment?  The beauty of that is in the eye of the beholder.  I think that the Success Factor with a few tweaks can resolve most of the issues.  For instance, I’d like to see 4 year cycles instead of 2 and fewer points needed to stay in a higher class.  But, this is a system that will work much better and more fairly than multipliers, automatic bumps, or a separate tournament. 

Finally, it is important to remember that we are dealing with very small sample sizes.  The current class system has only been in place for just over 30 years.  There were periods of time where public schools had much more success than they are having now.  Over the next 30 years, some programs will improve over that time and some will decline.  The cultures of communities change over time, populations shift, incomes are redistributed, and priorities change.  In a generation, there could be a completely different discussion which dominates this forum, such as why the participation in football has diminished to the point where football is nearly irrelevant.  I fear that that is our greater enemy.  As we argue with one another over the thing we enjoy so much, it is disintegrating around us."

 Being the 4th gen of one of the 1st Itallian immigrant's  to Evansville ...in the mid 1800s, I'm sure I have multitudes of relatives still there today. I found a good article on ....History of Italians in Evansville... that confirmed my genealogy to that locale.  However, your description dose not fit with my family history...tho it may for others... My GGF left his 2 bros in Evansville ....to a certain town that is a member of the EIAC. My family history tells me that EDU was highly valued among these immigrant families. Many great sacrifices were made to ensure they got one. Perhaps your description is more applicable to the larger cities of the day ...such as New York, Chicago than Indy or Evansville..... On the flip side...I've traced my father's side back way before the Revolution... it has given me an interesting perspective on things..... thanks for such a well thout out and interesting read.....

[tango]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

And, important factor, you pay teachers much better...magically, in Evansville!

In the Catholic schools?  I don't think so....  My daughter teaches at St. Teresa Little Flower in Indy and she makes more than what she would down here (by a teeny bit)… 

4 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Fair enough:

Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School is a top rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 734 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 11 to 1. Tuition is $17,640 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 99% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

Bishop Chatard High School is a highly rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 714 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 14 to 1. Tuition is $12,580 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 89% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

MD and Memorial would be 1 combined school of 500 if our tuitions were that high.  No way to survive..

[Titan32]

2 minutes ago, tango said:

In the Catholic schools?  I don't think so....  My daughter teaches at St. Teresa Little Flower in Indy and she makes more than what she would down here (by a teeny bit)… 

MD and Memorial would be 1 combined school of 500 if our tuitions were that high.  No way to survive..

That makes sense.

[Lysander]

5 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Fair enough:

Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School is a top rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 734 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 11 to 1. Tuition is $17,640 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 99% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

Bishop Chatard High School is a highly rated, private, Catholic school located in Indianapolis, IN. It has 714 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 14 to 1. Tuition is $12,580 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 89% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college.

No kids currently in HS (or even college these days) so I don’t know what tuition is currently but my guess is that there is a $2,000.00 (or thereabouts) discount for North Deanery Parishioners from that Bishop Chatard number.  That’s how it used to be.

Still not certain if the point was being made in a prior post that teachers were paid more at parochials (or if the opposite was being said).  Parochials, unfortunately, are not generally known for their great pay.  Neither do they usually have facilities that compare favorably to public schools (Chatard just got a home field after almost 60 years).  
 

No sushi or Starbucks at parochials, either.  Fish on Fridays, though....