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9 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Agree to disagree on this.  I think it was targeted at 2-3 central Indiana teams.  It's like the school teacher punishing the entire class because little Johnny acted up the day they had a substitute.

Totally agree.  
 

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Here's a scenario to consider...

 

In sports leagues, promotion and relegation is a process where teams are transferred between multiple divisions based on their performance for the completed season. The best-ranked team(s) in the lower division are promoted to the higher division for the next season, and the worst-ranked team(s) in the higher division are relegated to the lower division for the next season. In some leagues, playoffs or qualifying rounds are also used to determine rankings. This process can continue through several levels of divisions, with teams being exchanged between levels 1 and 2, levels 2 and 3, levels 3 and 4, and so on. During the season, teams that are high enough in the league table that they would qualify for promotion are sometimes said to be in the promotion zone, and those at the bottom are in the relegation zone (or, colloquially, the drop zone or facing the drop).[1]

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1 minute ago, Trojan88 said:

Here's a scenario to consider...

 

In sports leagues, promotion and relegation is a process where teams are transferred between multiple divisions based on their performance for the completed season. The best-ranked team(s) in the lower division are promoted to the higher division for the next season, and the worst-ranked team(s) in the higher division are relegated to the lower division for the next season. In some leagues, playoffs or qualifying rounds are also used to determine rankings. This process can continue through several levels of divisions, with teams being exchanged between levels 1 and 2, levels 2 and 3, levels 3 and 4, and so on. During the season, teams that are high enough in the league table that they would qualify for promotion are sometimes said to be in the promotion zone, and those at the bottom are in the relegation zone (or, colloquially, the drop zone or facing the drop).[1]

I think, given today's culture, the IHSAA would be hard-pressed to get enough programs to agree to the idea of having a list of folks names to the relegation list.  It took a mandatory mercy rule to get folks to do a running clock that doesn't require agreement.  They can't even get folks to even start to think about seeding sectionals or maybe even identifying the top four seed to prevent #1 from having to play #2 right out of the gate.  It's one thing to promote/punish successful programs, but having a public list of the demoted isn't likely to find traction from too many circles when it comes down to a vote.

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1 minute ago, foxbat said:

 It's one thing to promote/punish successful programs, but having a public list of the demoted isn't likely to find traction from too many circles when it comes down to a vote.

"Get better or get used to it", right?  That has been the mantra of many here on the GID for years.

And isn't getting moved back down a class via the current success factor mechanism effectively a demotion, while moving up a class is a promotion?

 

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44 minutes ago, slice60 said:

While I agree that the current system is not perfect, I think that the current Success Factor system has been positive overall-- for all sports.

Speaking of football only-- In general, programs that are bumped up are still competitive playing up with several (Cath, New Pal, Dwenger, Col East) continuing to advance far in the tournament. 

For those who propose a 4-year cycle, I offer this counter-argument. Let's say your school has a "golden" class or two which brings home a couple of state titles earning enough points in the 4-year cycle to be bumped up to a higher class. That means the incoming Freshmen would have to compete in that higher class for all 4 years of their HS career. 

The IHSAA recognized that something (Success Factor, Multiplier, separate P/P tournament) had to be done & they selected the best option, in my opinion. Just looking at 4A football is a great example-- from 1996-present, just 3 schools have taken home 14 state championships & 5 runner-ups in those 23 years. That means Cathedral, Roncalli & Dwenger (under 5% of the 64 -team field) made up 19 of the 46 (41%) state finalists & 14 of the 23 champions (61%) during those years.

The Success Factor provides some competitive balance & should not be viewed as a punishment to those programs. Look at what Cathedral has done-- after dominating 4A with 5 state titles in 7 years, they went up to 5A & won back-to-back state titles. After going up to 6A, they still won back-to-back Sectionals (then dropped down to 5A before the change from 3 points to 2 points). Back to 5A, they won Regional in 2017 & Sectional in 2019.

Dwenger just got bumped up into 5A this year & they are playing in the Semi State on Friday. In my mind, those top-notch football programs are currently playing at the right level of competition.

Besides those folks who support those schools with overflowing trophy cases, do we really want to see the exact same teams at LOS every year? Without the Success Factor system, this year's 4A title game would likely be Dwenger vs Cathedral. Personally, I'm happy to see that Hobart, East Noble & Mt Vernon are all just 1 win away from LOS. And programs like Dwenger & Cathedral still have a legitimate shot at taking home the 5A state trophy-- Dwenger is playing in the Semi State & Cathedral had a 2nd half lead in last week's Regional.

 

It  seems it is much easier for schools with enrollment's close to and/or above 1,000 to compete "up a class" ....maybe that's short-sighted or ignorant but just been my observation. 

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Within any given classification, moving schools up that that win a lot and moving down schools that lose a lot makes no sense to me.  Like others here have said you're punishing success and rewarding failure.  If you can't beat the school you're lining up against, get better.  Best team wins. Period.  It's life, get used to it.  Coddling bad teams & punishing good teams.  I call BS on that.

I know, I know I'm a mean old man.  So get off my lawn lol.

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8 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

"Get better or get used to it", right?  That has been the mantra of many here on the GID for years.

And isn't getting moved back down a class via the current success factor mechanism effectively a demotion, while moving up a class is a promotion?

 

Has nothing to do with get better or get used to it and has little to do with GID sentiments.  Has to do with society as whole nowadays, for better or worse.  You can't give Johnny a failing grade even if he got every question wrong and misspelled his own name and you certainly can't tell him directly that he's performing lower than the class.   Has to do with the fact that everyone's OK with saying move the guys up so that everyone can get a shot when everyone thinks they are the one that might get a shot.  Kind of like kids in a classroom with extra credit.  They all want extra points for showing up to class, but they all think the teacher is mean/unreasonable for counting off points when they skip class.

I would conjecture that the psyche of most folks views success factor as an artificial mechanism in the current scheme and thus it creates something that's "unnatural" to the current process.  As such, anything that moves back into the state prior to the introduction of artificial process isn't viewed in as negative a light.  Time is necessary for SF to be considered more of the "norm" or less artificial and it may well be that, in the future, it may well be scene as "demotion," but for right now, that's not specifically how it's viewed.  Again, that could well change, but as I posted above, this SF thing is only a half a decade old.  Needs time to grow on folks.

1 minute ago, Bonecrusher said:

Within any given classification, moving schools up that that win a lot and moving down schools that lose a lot makes no sense to me.  Like others here have said you're punishing success and rewarding failure.  If you can't beat the school you're lining up against, get better.  Best team wins. Period.  It's life, get used to it.  Coddling bad teams & punishing good teams.  I call BS on that.

I know, I know I'm a mean old man.  So get off my lawn lol.

Nope ... just a Texan now. 😃

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The “Success Factor” to a degree has defaulted to the law of unintended consequences like so many “cures” do.  Most ALL of the successful transitions have come from 4A with only Memorial in 3A making it stick as the exception.  Still, all in all, it’s been a point of pride to teams.  I think all of the 4A teams that have made it stick (or even gone up another class) are damn proud....although it has cost them some possible championships.  Selfishly, I wouldn’t have seen probably the most entertaining HS game I have ever seen which was the New Pal/Snider State Championship a few years ago.

It seems to be working for most.

That said, we are still going to have the inevitable scheidtstorm of crying, b!tching, excuse-making, and moaning that will be the upcoming Heritage Hills v Chatard/Mishawaka Marian GID Thread (and any other public v. private game).  It’s already started.

I will say the same thing I have always said from the day it was announced, though.  Just move every single P/P up a class and be done with it.  I’m totally down with that.  

Then the tears and lamentations might stop.....except they won’t. 

I do think the problem today with what a I propose is that you have teams that have moved up (like New Pal) that would like to take an actual bite out of a MIC team in the playoffs as opposed to just a nibble in the regular season.  Without the Success Factor, they are stuck down on the 4A “farm”.  Ironically, some of the biggest advocates today might be those who have moved up wanting to strut their stuff.

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There is a flaw in the success factor... Southridge chose the wrong 2 years to be good... WeBo could win the state championship back-to-back years with no penalty... but Southridge wins the State followed by a Regional championship and gets bumped to 3A. If you are going to penalize one, you have to do all... It makes sense to RECLASS every two years, but the success factor should be in place every year.

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14 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

There is a flaw in the success factor... Southridge chose the wrong 2 years to be good... WeBo could win the state championship back-to-back years with no penalty... but Southridge wins the State followed by a Regional championship and gets bumped to 3A. If you are going to penalize one, you have to do all... It makes sense to RECLASS every two years, but the success factor should be in place every year.

Or you could take the pervious 4 years and throw out the most successful year and least successful year to get a better median of the programs success with the remaining two years. 

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Same for EM...picked the wrong years. Unfortunately, they are now stuck in 4A through next cycle. Kids that had very little to do with the recent run by the Tigers are getting punished the next several years. I’m guessing enrollment for EM will be just over 500 students with only a couple hundred boys. 

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6 minutes ago, Screagle said:

Same for EM...picked the wrong years. Unfortunately, they are now stuck in 4A through next cycle. Kids that had very little to do with the recent run by the Tigers are getting punished the next several years. I’m guessing enrollment for EM will be just over 500 students with only a couple hundred boys. 

Tragic.

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1 hour ago, foxbat said:

Has nothing to do with get better or get used to it and has little to do with GID sentiments.  Has to do with society as whole nowadays, for better or worse.  You can't give Johnny a failing grade even if he got every question wrong and misspelled his own name and you certainly can't tell him directly that he's performing lower than the class.   Has to do with the fact that everyone's OK with saying move the guys up so that everyone can get a shot when everyone thinks they are the one that might get a shot.  Kind of like kids in a classroom with extra credit.  They all want extra points for showing up to class, but they all think the teacher is mean/unreasonable for counting off points when they skip class.

Nice little rant.

Is what you described also the SOP at the Lafayette Catholic School System?

 

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1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Nice little rant.

Is what you described also the SOP at the Lafayette Catholic School System?

 

Have no idea.  It was a general statement.  My kids aren't in LCSS and I don't teach there.  Not that it matters.  Never seem to miss a chance to take a swipe at folks, huh?

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11 minutes ago, freesample4u said:

I know this will make some people mad, but oh well. Move the private schools up. Leave public schools alone. Talent pool is so cyclical with the smaller schools. 

Awesome first post. Keep 'em comin', you'll have a great time here.Don't mind all those red numbers under your name, they're for entertainment purposes only.

Edited by gonzoron
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42 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Have no idea.  It was a general statement.  My kids aren't in LCSS and I don't teach there.  Not that it matters.  Never seem to miss a chance to take a swipe at folks, huh?

Take a swipe?  Not a all, just looking for information.   

A might touchy, aren't we?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Take a swipe?  Not a all, just looking for information.   

A might touchy, aren't we?

 

 

Not at all, just looking for information.

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