Time to fix the broken 6A tournament

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Gipper said:

I’m a little confused.  How is it broken?  I think it’s great.  Merrillville beat the #2 team in the state.  Hopefully the upset trend will continue and give my “not everyone gets a trophy” edict a run for its money...

Lol at “beating the #2 team in the state.”

Jeff was the product of a pathetic schedule and Merrillville was eventually exposed and should be used as an example to confirm DT’s point...

[BTF]

21 hours ago, Gipper said:

About 3 million students go to Carmel, yet they can only field 11 at a time.

 

Half as many attend Center Grove, but yet only 11 are permitted on the field at a time.

 

The same does for Adams Central, Batesville, Delta, Elwood, Floyd Central, Gary West, Homestead, Indianapolis (too many too mention😉), Jasper, Kokomo, Lawrence Central, Monroe Central, North Knox, Oregon-Davis (if they had a football team) Penn, Reitz, Southport, Terre Haute North (and South), Union County, Valparaiso, Warren Central, and Zionsville.

Due to economic depression, high school sports has been shut down for the last ten years. They are about to start up again. You are offered one million dollars if you can win the state championship in a one class system. You have a choice of three teams...............Carmel, Center Grove, or Adams Central. Who do you  choose and why?

[Gipper]

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

Due to economic depression, high school sports has been shut down for the last ten years. They are about to start up again. You are offered one million dollars if you can win the state championship in a one class system. You have a choice of three teams...............Carmel, Center Grove, or Adams Central. Who do you  choose and why?

Might we taking this a little too seriously?  You even missed the intent of my post.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by Gipper

[Gipper]

44 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Lol at “beating the #2 team in the state.”

Jeff was the product of a pathetic schedule and Merrillville was eventually exposed and should be used as an example to confirm DT’s point...

But I thought polls were the gold standard...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Gipper said:

But I thought polls were the gold standard...

The parity in the MIC this season lured many (like myself) into a false sense that a handful of teams were better than it turned out they were.

Back to Merrillville, Homestead and other non-MIC 6A outfits...a conference title and a couple of tournament wins appears to be your ceiling in the current format.

[Gipper]

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

The parity in the MIC this season lured many (like myself) into a false sense that a handful of teams were better than it turned out they were.

Back to Merrillville, Homestead and other non-MIC 6A outfits...a conference title and a couple of tournament wins appears to be your ceiling in the current format.

Noted.

[slice60]

21 hours ago, gindie said:

Will success factor require them to move up?

Outside of 6A, any team that earns 6 points in the 2-year cycle (2019-2020 football seasons) gets bumped up to the next highest class. So if New Pal wins Regional next season, they move up to 6A.

Similarly, if LCC / WeBo / Chatard / Ev Memorial win a Regional or better next season, they move up 1 class. So there is a chance that 2 programs (New Pal & EvMem) will move to a class 2 levels above their enrollment. Actually, FW Dwenger (as Regional champion this season) would do the same if they win 5A next year.

[BDGiant93]

Let's assume the IHSAA does this, will you be back here again crying about splitting 6A Division 1 again in half?

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, slice60 said:

Outside of 6A, any team that earns 6 points in the 2-year cycle (2019-2020 football seasons) gets bumped up to the next highest class. So if New Pal wins Regional next season, they move up to 6A.

Similarly, if LCC / WeBo / Chatard / Ev Memorial win a Regional or better next season, they move up 1 class. So there is a chance that 2 programs (New Pal & EvMem) will move to a class 2 levels above their enrollment. Actually, FW Dwenger (as Regional champion this season) would do the same if they win 5A next year.

Unique situation could happen next season as WeBo and New Pal could both end up winning three state titles in a row before moving up.  Memorial could end up making three straight LOS visits before moving up too.

[Staxawax]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

Unique situation could happen next season as WeBo and New Pal could both end up winning three state titles in a row before moving up.  Memorial could end up making three straight LOS visits before moving up too.

I’m assuming New Pal and Cathedral are both in the same regional next year. If so, I think the Irish would win that game (I know, a way too early prediction) and New Pal would not move up.

[Guest DT]

I for one would enjoy watching another big school state championship game.

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

I’m assuming New Pal and Cathedral are both in the same regional next year. If so, I think the Irish would win that game (I know, a way too early prediction) and New Pal would not move up.

Damn.  That may be a record...

Hating/doubting a team with a proven system 11 1/2 months in advance.

I’ll just politely respond with:  88-4.

[CaptainHook]

On 11/27/2019 at 5:14 PM, BTF said:

Class 6a is broken and needs to be fixed. We can all agree on that. If there is anyone who doesn't believe that, then you need to have your head examined........fact. Is there a better idea? If there is, bring it to the table. Splitting 6a into two divisions is the only way to go. If the IHSAA is satisfied with a school of 5000 playing a school of 2000 for the state championship, then shame on them. 

It can be done. No one likes the idea because it came from DT. 

3 point difference tonight

[CaptainHook]

1 hour ago, Staxawax said:

I’m assuming New Pal and Cathedral are both in the same regional next year. If so, I think the Irish would win that game (I know, a way too early prediction) and New Pal would not move up.

I love me some Ralph, and I love NP,  but a regional win next year will be tough.  (I know you are reading this Kyle, prove me wrong!)

[BTF]

9 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

3 point difference tonight

No one will remember the three point difference. Congrats to the Greyhounds on their 9th state championship. 

[HoosierFB_JG]

I’m so happy for the Greyhounds and glad to see my son win a state championship.  

[Lysander]

15 minutes ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

I’m so happy for the Greyhounds and glad to see my son win a state championship.  

 Congrats to your son. It’s a special thing.

[BTF]

18 minutes ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

I’m so happy for the Greyhounds and glad to see my son win a state championship.  

Congratulations. Memory of a lifetime!

[Gipper]

24 minutes ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

I’m so happy for the Greyhounds and glad to see my son win a state championship.  

I’m sure he worked hard, congratulations!  

[Guest DT]

That was the most physical and aggressive Carmel team I have ever seen.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by DT

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

That was the most physical and aggressive Carmel team I have ever seen.  

One of their players was quoted post game as saying the ‘Hounds were trying to shed the stereotype that they were “soft.”

Thoughts?

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Guest

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

One of their players was quoted post game as saying the ‘Hounds were trying to shed the stereotype that they were “soft.”

Thoughts?

 

That's interesting.

I've never considered Carmel to be a "tough" program.  Thats doesnt mean they are/were soft.  They always have good size and plenty of college bound talent.  

This team looks different.  This team looks like a bigger and deeper version of Chatard, with the same type of killer attitude.  I was impressed.  

You had to love it when big #75 ran the CG linebacker out of the back of the endzone, like Michael Oher did in "Blindside"   That set the tone for a very physical game.  And then Curry returned the favor for CG when he body slammed the Carmel RB into the turf inside the Trojan 5 yard line.

CG is very young and that was a veteran Carmel team.  Bodes very well for the Trojans in the future.  With jackson at QB , CG could rip off two straight 6A titles 

Great game, best game of the weekend.  

 

[Footballking16]

On 11/27/2019 at 11:15 AM, DT said:

http://www.ossaa.net/docs/2018-19/Classifications/FB_2018-19_1819Classifications.pdf

 

Given the mega schools stranglehold on the 6A tournament, it is time to revisit this classification and propose changes that create a more balanced and fair process to determine the big school state football champion.

I lived in Oklahoma for several years and Okies take their high school football very seriously.  Oklahoma has a lot of similarities to Indiana in terms of size, population distribution and city structure.  Their post season tournament is class structured, with the major difference being that not all schools qualify for post season play.

Oklahoma has a mega school problem similar to what we see in Indiana.  A small cluster of schools in Tulsa dominate the big classification, with Jenks and Union basically being the Ben Davis and Warren Central of Oklahoma.  Other mega schools like Broken Arrow and Owasso (Carmel and Center Grove) are also regularly in the mix.

Like Indiana, Oklahoma's largest classification is 6A.  Unlike Indiana, Oklahoma has split its largest class into two divisions.  6A Division 1 for the top 16 schools in enrollment and 6A Division 2 for the schools 17-32 in enrollment.

I would like to see Indiana adopt this structure for the all in post season 6A tournament.  All 32 6A teams will play 10 regular season games, take a bye week, then play a 4 week tournament in two separate divisions to determine 2 state champions in the biggest classification.  This model will allow the 6A title games to remain on TG weekend.  We would likely see 4 games on Friday and 3 games on Saturday.  

6A is the most exclusionary class in the tournament given the massive enrollment discrepancies we see today.  The new classification based on current enrollment would look  like this :

Class 6A Division 1

 Carmel High School 1282 1299 1174 1245 5000 AAAAAA 1 2211 Ben Davis High School 1225 1094 1035 1008 4362 AAAAAA 2 3444 North Central (Indpls.) High School 946 1000 948 878 3772 AAAAAA 3 4333 Warren Central High School 981 993 911 851 3736 AAAAAA 4 5555 Penn High School 788 867 876 814 3345 AAAAAA 5 6777 Pike High School 860 853 824 769 3306 AAAAAA 6 7 9 14 22 Fishers High School 853 815 848 734 3250 AAAAAA 7 8666 Lake Central High School 795 837 819 768 3219 AAAAAA 8 9888 Hamilton Southeastern HS 836 778 787 717 3118 AAAAAA 9 10 10 12 14 Avon High School 735 802 699 655 2891 AAAAAA 10 11 11 10 15 Noblesville High School 785 752 716 629 2882 AAAAAA 11 12 12 11 13 Crown Point High School 684 730 678 671 2763 AAAAAA 12 13 13 13 11 Franklin Central High School 716 716 639 588 2659 AAAAAA 13 14 16 18 23 Brownsburg High School 685 705 621 618 2629 AAAAAA 14 15 14 9 9 Portage High School 658 691 576 595 2520 AAAAAA 15 16 15 17 18 Center Grove High School 662 606 622 610 2500 AAAAAA 16 17 19 20 16

Class 6A Division 2

Lawrence North High School 640 666 572 591 2469 AAAAAA 17 18 20 23 21 Perry Meridian High School 607 641 519 584 2351 AAAAAA 18 19 18 21 24 Homestead Senior High School 592 598 571 587 2348 AAAAAA 19 20 17 15 10 Lawrence Central High School 603 623 586 528 2340 AAAAAA 20 21 24 28 36 Carroll (F.W.) High School 602 592 580 506 2280 AAAAAA 21 22 21 19 17 Merrillville High Sch 570 578 544 522 2214 AAAAAA 22 23 26 26 26 Southport High School 576 583 522 504 2185 AAAAAA 23 24 25 25 30 Warsaw Community HS 540 579 536 521 2176 AAAAAA 24 25 34 40 47 Westfield High School 577 538 560 471 2146 AAAAAA 25 26 22 22 20 F.W. Northrop High School 506 531 519 541 2097 AAAAAA 26 27 27 24 27 Valparaiso High School 561 556 499 466 2082 AAAAAA 27 28 29 30 34 Chesterton Senior High School 536 531 516 493 2076 AAAAAA 28 29 23 27 28 Jeffersonville High School 515 554 541 456 2066 AAAAAA 29 30 33 32 25 Lafayette Jefferson High School 591 511 483 446 2031 AAAAAA 30 31 28 29 32 Columbus North High School 515 548 497 457 2017 AAAAAA 31 40 42 39 31 F.W. Snider High School 470 474 455 451 1850 AAAAAA 32

The MIC plays great football, but the 6A tournament has basically become the MIC Conference Championship Game.

Would be good for overall fan interest to get some new schools into LOS with a chance to hoist a state championship trophy.

 

 

 

 

Wait, so you’d want 2 MIC teams to win state titles? Talk about irony here. And if it wasn’t a MIC school winning the Division 2 title, it’d be a 5A team like New Pal or Cathedral (technically 4A by enrollment) bumped up due to the success factor.

Anyways, what was all the talk earlier this year about the HCC overtaking the MIC. You mean to tell me that isn’t the case now?

[Guest DT]

7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Wait, so you’d want 2 MIC teams to win state titles? Talk about irony here. And if it wasn’t a MIC school winning the Division 2 title, it’d be a 5A team like New Pal or Cathedral (technically 4A by enrollment) bumped up due to the success factor.

Anyways, what was all the talk earlier this year about the HCC overtaking the MIC. You mean to tell me that isn’t the case now?

If the MIC sweeps then so be it.

Small 6A is the last group of schools who are basically without representation in the state finals.  The two division format addresses that inequity and is another step towards the achievement of competitive balance.

There are many schools that are doing what it tales to be a champion but are left behind due to the current structure.  They deserve a chance to make it to the big stage just as much as the mega schools do.  

Playing in the shadow of The MIC is the best thing to ever happen to The HCC.  It has pushed the programs to get better.  Most have improved

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by DT

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, DT said:

If the MIC sweeps then so be it.

Small 6A is the last group of schools who are basically without representation in the state finals.  The two division format addresses that inequity and is another step towards the achievement of competitive balance.

There are many schools that are doing what it tales to be a champion but are left behind due to the current structure.  They deserve a chance to make it to the big stage just as much as the mega schools do.  

 

Wasn’t Center Grove just in the state finals? A bottom half 6A enrollment school?

Edited December 1, 2019 by Footballking16